East Barnet Joint Stock - a workbench

[Daddyman]

9 hours ago, Chas Levin said:

I was at the Scalefour show in High Wycombe the other weekend, I asked around there too

So it was you standing next to me at the Branchlines stand! Sorry, just didn't recognise you soon enough!  

[Bucoops]

I've not had much need for flat end axles but like you have used 2mm stock bar - I think it was probably silver steel but too long ago to remember.

[Chas Levin]

15 hours ago, manna said:

G'Day Folks

 

Re, the flat ended axles, couldn't you use pin point axles, but grind the ends off the axles. That's what I do.

 

manna

G-Day Terry, I did think about that, but I only had a couple of spare pinpoint axles and I don't have a grinding wheel, so I thought cutting from steel bar stock might be more efficient and less work. To be fair, using a cutting disc in my drill, it was quite easy, but I think it was probably about the same amount of time and work (including finishing the ends neatly) as removing pinpoint ends. I might try that next time though, just for variety 🙂

[Chas Levin]

15 hours ago, micklner said:

Alan Gibson Bogie Wheels always come with Pinpoint, and OO and EM  Flat end Axles. No idea if the axles are the same diameter/size as the ones in the pictures.

Mick, do you mean that when you order two pairs of Gibson bogie wheels, they come with six axles? That's very good service. I'm due to speak to Colin shortly anyway so I'll chase it up...

Interestingly, I can tell you that Gibson axles are the tiniest bit smaller than Markits. Colin from Gibson - during a quick chat about them at Scaleforum - said his axles were slightly smaller diameter and when I checked back at home, I found that Gibsons (I have a pair of EM ones in an older Gibsons kit in my stash) are 1.98mm, Markits (from another stash kit) are 2.03 and the silver steel rod I bought from an online metals supplier was 2.02mm.

Edited October 6, 2023 by Chas Levin

[Chas Levin]

6 hours ago, Daddyman said:

So it was you standing next to me at the Branchlines stand! Sorry, just didn't recognise you soon enough!  

 

Hello David, I must say almost exactly the same thing to you! As we were leaving, I thought it might be you, talking to two other people I didn't recognise, just by the entrance to the ground floor main hall. It's a while since we met, so I wasn't sure - partly a sign of increasing age, partly of decreasing sight.

We were on our way elsewhere and my mind was already on the journey, but I asked my wife if she thought it was you and she pointed out that she's never met you and that we were running late, so we left.

Next time...

[Chas Levin]

5 hours ago, Bucoops said:

I've not had much need for flat end axles but like you have used 2mm stock bar - I think it was probably silver steel but too long ago to remember.

 

I must admit Rich, to be fair, that in ten years of building railway kits, this is the first time I've needed a pair of them and that must say something as to why they're not widely available, but I still would have thought of them as something that would be on a price list or two.

Silver steel's what I used too, so I expect it's what you used...

[micklner]

2 hours ago, Chas Levin said:

Mick, do you mean that when you order two pairs of Gibson bogie wheels, they come with six axles? That's very good service. I'm due to speak to Colin shortly anyway so I'll chase it up...

Interestingly, I can tell you that Gibson axles are the tiniest bit smaller than Markits. Colin from Gibson - during a quick chat about them at Scaleforum - said his axles were slightly smaller diameter and when I checked back at home, I found that Gibsons (I have a pair of EM ones in an older Gibsons kit in my stash) are 1.98mm, Markits (from another stash kit) are 2.03 and the silver steel rod I bought from an online metals supplier was 2.02mm.

😂  Yes!!

Edited October 6, 2023 by micklner

[31A]

2 hours ago, Chas Levin said:

G-Day Terry, I did think about that, but I only had a couple of spare pinpoint axles and I don't have a grinding wheel, so I thought cutting from steel bar stock might be more efficient and less work. To be fair, using a cutting disc in my drill, it was quite easy, but I think it was probably about the same amount of time and work (including finishing the ends neatly) as removing pinpoint ends. I might try that next time though, just for variety 🙂

 

When I've done this, usually with Romford Markits tender wheels to remove the axle points and make them suitable for a tender with a dummy inside frame, I've just used a big file to remove the points and shorten the axle by as much as it needs shortening, then finished off with a fine needle file to dress the ends smooth.

 

I presume the axles are mild steel, but whatever they are it's easy enough to shorten them with a file!

 

[Daddyman]

2 hours ago, Chas Levin said:

 

Hello David, I must say almost exactly the same thing to you! As we were leaving, I thought it might be you, talking to two other people I didn't recognise, just by the entrance to the ground floor main hall. It's a while since we met, so I wasn't sure - partly a sign of increasing age, partly of decreasing sight.

We were on our way elsewhere and my mind was already on the journey, but I asked my wife if she thought it was you and she pointed out that she's never met you and that we were running late, so we left.

Next time...

Her logic cannot be faulted. 

 

We obviously neither of us have a good face for memories... 

 

[Chas Levin]

2 hours ago, Daddyman said:

Her logic cannot be faulted. 

 

We obviously neither of us have a good face for memories... 

 

 

In your defence, I also have considerably more facial hair than the last time we met!

[Chas Levin]

3 hours ago, 31A said:

 

When I've done this, usually with Romford Markits tender wheels to remove the axle points and make them suitable for a tender with a dummy inside frame, I've just used a big file to remove the points and shorten the axle by as much as it needs shortening, then finished off with a fine needle file to dress the ends smooth.

 

I presume the axles are mild steel, but whatever they are it's easy enough to shorten them with a file!

 

 

Thanks Steve, and thank you all who've replied: weighing up those various replies to my original question about plain axles, I think we can safely say that everyone makes their own and that I need to up my game!

 

A little voice was telling me at Scalefour that if no-one was offering them for sale, given the free market economy in which we all cheerfully rub along, it must be because almost no-one wants to buy them, because if there's one thing the market doesn't do, it's ignore demand... 🤑

 

Excellent: lesson learned!

 

Bring on the weekend...

 

[31A]

53 minutes ago, Chas Levin said:

 

Thanks Steve, and thank you all who've replied: weighing up those various replies to my original question about plain axles, I think we can safely say that everyone makes their own and that I need to up my game!

 

A little voice was telling me at Scalefour that if no-one was offering them for sale, given the free market economy in which we all cheerfully rub along, it must be because almost no-one wants to buy them, because if there's one thing the market doesn't do, it's ignore demand... 🤑

 

Excellent: lesson learned!

 

Bring on the weekend...

 

That's a nice photograph, I don't think I've seen it before.  Is it somewhere in the West Riding?

 

[Chas Levin]

1 hour ago, 31A said:

That's a nice photograph, I don't think I've seen it before.  Is it somewhere in the West Riding?

 

 

You have sharp eyes and/or good local knowledge Steve, as I believe it is. The photo's in the Yeadon issue for Sentinel vehicles, where the caption says it's at Holbeck High Level, on the Leeds (Central)-Castleford service. What did you recognise in the picture?

I've posted it before (with acknowledgement and a note that it's purely for research purposes) because it's a photo of 51908 Expedition, which is (almost definitely) the railcar I'll be modelling: I thought it was about time I reminded myself of what I'm working towards 🎯.

[31A]

14 minutes ago, Chas Levin said:

What did you recognise in the picture?

 

 

Mainly a hunch I supposed, and the J50 on the left!   But now you mention it I think that signal gantry appears in several photos taken in that area, albeit most often in later days hen fitted with upper quadrant arms.

[Chas Levin]

Chassis testing on my current layout has been very successful, using a variety of heavy metal washers, other weights and my beloved teflon washers too:

 

 

 

The Black Beetle purrs along - it's the first one I've used in a build and today was the first time I've actually run it under anything, even this bare floorpan with makeshift weights. Very impressed!

Edited October 7, 2023 by Chas Levin

[Daddyman]

Thinking further ahead, Chas, have you thought about how to curve the bodyside? I haven't read everything on your thread, but have I picked up that your kit is nickel silver? Mine is very thick unbendable brass. It's bad enough trying to impart the curve in the lower bodyside, but then there's the sharper curved in the fronts to do too. Also, the front windows look wrong (too small? too far apart?). Also, it calls itself a kit for the D.96, but I'd concluded it was closer to a D.97 as the etch has no hinged toplights (there was only 4" from memory difference in the passenger compartment length; D96s are supposed to have a plain driver's door and D.97s a panelled one, but I don't see evidence of that in photos). Still, the D.96 names are better - Tweedside! - so perhaps you/we could commission some toplight etches from Rumney?

 

Sorry if all this has been covered. 

[Chas Levin]

6 hours ago, Daddyman said:

Thinking further ahead, Chas, have you thought about how to curve the bodyside? I haven't read everything on your thread, but have I picked up that your kit is nickel silver? Mine is very thick unbendable brass. It's bad enough trying to impart the curve in the lower bodyside, but then there's the sharper curved in the fronts to do too. Also, the front windows look wrong (too small? too far apart?). Also, it calls itself a kit for the D.96, but I'd concluded it was closer to a D.97 as the etch has no hinged toplights (there was only 4" from memory difference in the passenger compartment length; D96s are supposed to have a plain driver's door and D.97s a panelled one, but I don't see evidence of that in photos). Still, the D.96 names are better - Tweedside! - so perhaps you/we could commission some toplight etches from Rumney?

 

Sorry if all this has been covered. 

 

Hello David, thanks, good points all, always trying to think ahead here too!

 

For the turnunder, I'd planned to curve the sides in the usual way, using a suitably curved former, or by impressing a suitable diameter rounded object into the NS, on top of something padded. I know they're thick etches (0.4mm) but they're not continuous at the foot (door gaps occur) and I've been assuming it's do-able: time will tell! Could you temper the brass perhaps?

 

I didn't know you were building one too: are your etches Worsley Works? Interesting if they are but in brass: are they thicker than 0.4mm? Were they made a long time ago - did WW used to etch in brass?

 

Likewise the sharper front curve - I'm hoping to do that 'manually' and follow the line of the Isinglass, which is a close - but not exact - match to the curve of the fold-up pieces that form the inner cab fronts and body-to-floor fixings; here's a photo of one of those pieces positioned over the relevant curve on the drawing:

 

 

You're right about the cab end windows being slightly too small:

 

 

Also, they're identical, rather than being mirrored, so the opening toplights are on the same side of both. I plan to thin the sides of the frames a little, to enlarge the openings, but to remove those two etched upper frame horizontal pieces entirely, the ones marking the lower edges of the two toplights, partly to deal with the non-mirroring, partly because I'm going to model those toplights in the open position (using @Jon4470's excellent plastic scoring technique).

Aside from that, these etched cab ends are much better looking than the Nu-Cast white-metal ones and will be far easier to unite with the ethced sides, so I think I can live with that degree of width inaccuracy.

 

I've also noticed, while looking at a lot of prototype photos, that there was a considerable amount of minor variation in various features, dimensions and so forth, not just between Diagrams but within the vehicles of a particular diagram, so I think we can allow ourselves a little leeway.

 

You're right too that the etches have no Dia 96 hinged toplights, but neither do they have Dia 97 lower pane droplights. My plan is to replicate the appearance of the toplights with brass overlays as you suggest - they were in fact fixed in later years anyway, so all you'd see would be a slight thickening of the frames around them. I'd be very happy to collaborate in commissioning some: how does the process for that work, as I've never done it before?

 

Regarding the plain / panelled doors, that one I have dealt with. Back in June on this thread, I went to considerable trouble to blank off two of the panels using brass pieces, before Mike Trice very sensibly pointed out that I could simply have reversed the door etches! I did that for the second one, needless to say.

[Daddyman]

9 minutes ago, Chas Levin said:

the turnunder

Hi Chas. Re the turnunder, I wouldn't want to anneal it - you'll get a lot of warping. My experience was that it was doable, but very hard - N/S might make the job easier. But I think you really need to follow the trick of supporting the centre part of the bodyside with a piece of thin card, to ensure that the curve rolls at the same rate all along (long pieces - roofs, bodysides - have a tendency to roll tighter at the ends than at the centre). Good news is it's a very slight curve.  

14 minutes ago, Chas Levin said:

I didn't know you were building one too: are your etches Worsley Works? Interesting if they are but in brass: are they thicker than 0.4mm? Were they made a long time ago - did WW used to etch in brass?

Yes, WW from only a couple of years ago, in brass. Not sure to what extent I'm "building" one - I suppose my subconscious had decided the difficulties were insurmountable... 

 

14 minutes ago, Chas Levin said:

Likewise the sharper front curve - I'm hoping to do that 'manually' and follow the line of the Isinglass, which is a close - but not exact - match to the curve of the fold-up pieces that form the inner cab fronts and body-to-floor fixings 

I don't have Isinglass but had come to the conclusion the cab formers were wrong on the kit too. You probably could - or will have to - anneal the cab fronts.  

17 minutes ago, Chas Levin said:

Also, they're identical, rather than being mirrored, so the opening toplights are on the same side of both. I plan to thin the sides of the frames a little, to enlarge the openings, but to remove those two etched upper frame horizontal pieces entirely, the ones marking the lower edges of the two toplights, partly to deal with the non-mirroring, partly because I'm going to model those toplights in the open position (using @Jon4470's excellent plastic scoring technique).

Sounds like a good plan! 

18 minutes ago, Chas Levin said:

You're right too that the etches have no Dia 96 hinged toplights, but neither do they have Dia 97 lower pane droplights.

But those latter are invisible, aren't they? 

18 minutes ago, Chas Levin said:

I'd be very happy to collaborate in commissioning some: how does the process for that work, as I've never done it before?

It's very smooth with Justin. He'll even do the design work for those (like me) who are CAD-challenged. He charges a drawing/development fee and then the price of the product. I haven't had etches done, which might take longer due to the dearth of etchers, but I had some 3D prints done for Bamburgh and it was a very painless process, with superb results. 

[Chas Levin]

15 hours ago, Daddyman said:

Hi Chas. Re the turnunder, I wouldn't want to anneal it - you'll get a lot of warping. My experience was that it was doable, but very hard - N/S might make the job easier. But I think you really need to follow the trick of supporting the centre part of the bodyside with a piece of thin card, to ensure that the curve rolls at the same rate all along (long pieces - roofs, bodysides - have a tendency to roll tighter at the ends than at the centre). Good news is it's a very slight curve. 

 

Morning David, yes, I can see the danger of warping must override the possible advantages. Fully agree about supporting: I plan to construct some sort of jig to allow the pressure to be applied only to the desired areas.

 

15 hours ago, Daddyman said:

Yes, WW from only a couple of years ago, in brass. Not sure to what extent I'm "building" one - I suppose my subconscious had decided the difficulties were insurmountable...

 

I don't think the difficulties are 'insurmountable'; I'm not sure though whether I'd classify these etches as a 'scratchbuilding aid', or as a sort of very basic no-frills kit: probably somewhere between the two. I think the end result should look crisper and more realistic than the white-metal version - in fact, you can see a build on WW's site, as covered upthread on here, where I mentioned speaking to the builder who was very helpful: I'm sure you'll agree it's a fine looking vehicle. One thing I didn't ask him though was how long it took to build!

 

15 hours ago, Daddyman said:

But those latter are invisible, aren't they?

 

Pretty much: you can just see the two handles in the glass in some photos, but they're never modelled AFAIK so to all intents and purposes the toplights are the only ones you see on models.

 

15 hours ago, Daddyman said:

It's very smooth with Justin. He'll even do the design work for those (like me) who are CAD-challenged. He charges a drawing/development fee and then the price of the product. I haven't had etches done, which might take longer due to the dearth of etchers, but I had some 3D prints done for Bamburgh and it was a very painless process, with superb results. 

 

Excellent, thanks: I'll contact him: there's no doubt that would produce neater results than anything homemade by me...

[Daddyman]

1 hour ago, Chas Levin said:

you can see a build on WW's site

Very nice, and the right decision, in my opinion, not to attempt the lining, which will inevitably look overscale.

 

But it looks like he's left the bodysides flat? 

1 hour ago, Chas Levin said:

Excellent, thanks: I'll contact him: there's no doubt that would produce neater results than anything homemade by me...

You/we could get buffers and axleboxes 3D printed too. They'll be sharper than WM, and if you have bogie frames, you can just add the a/boxes, rather than adding a WM overlay, which will lead to overwide bogies - not quite sure what your plan was as so far I've only looked at the photos not read the text. 

 

[Chas Levin]

4 hours ago, Daddyman said:

Very nice, and the right decision, in my opinion, not to attempt the lining, which will inevitably look overscale.

 

Actually I'm going to line mine, even though I know it'll be hard work to avoid being over-scale. I really enjoy lining though - painting generally in fact - and I'm quite excited about doing it! We all have our little eccentricities...

 

4 hours ago, Daddyman said:

But it looks like he's left the bodysides flat?

 

Looks like it, doesn't it? It's a while since I looked at the photos and I hadn't noticed that before. That's interesting in that it shows how well a model of one of these can look without the turnunder - it doesn't detract significantly IMHO.

 

5 hours ago, Daddyman said:

You/we could get buffers and axleboxes 3D printed too. They'll be sharper than WM, and if you have bogie frames, you can just add the a/boxes, rather than adding a WM overlay, which will lead to overwide bogies - not quite sure what your plan was as so far I've only looked at the photos not read the text.

 

Buffers I've already built - see here, upthread - and I'm very pleased with them; bogie width however is indeed something I'm aware of and taking into account.

 

The powered end is a Black Beetle and I've yet to measure as to whether hanging the WM castings from it will cause an issue; the unpowered end I'm currently building, based on a 6'6" bogie from the Judith Edge ES1 kit (very kindly supplied by Mike Edge) so I can control the eventual width on that one quite easily.

 

I'm inclined to stay with the WM bogie sides. I think they look perfectly acceptable from normal viewing distance and angles (i.e. usually from above) and given their location beneath the body, their black colour and their low prominence (can one say 'low prominence? I'm sure there's a better single word but I can't think of it right now) I think I can live with them. We'll see - there's time to revise that opinion of course...🤔

[Jon4470]

8 hours ago, Chas Levin said:

 

 

 

 

Pretty much: you can just see the two handles in the glass in some photos, but they're never modelled AFAIK so to all intents and purposes the toplights are the only ones you see on models.

 

 

 

At one point I thought about modelling these handles - I was thinking that they could be represented by dots of paint. I decided not to, in the end, because it would be difficult to place them accurately on the window. If the windows were individually fitted, then I guess that a jig could be created though. (Also ….they are virtually invisible ….especially compared to the handrails that I forgot to fit …. And have just noticed😃)

 

 

 

 

[Chas Levin]

15 hours ago, Jon4470 said:

At one point I thought about modelling these handles - I was thinking that they could be represented by dots of paint. I decided not to, in the end, because it would be difficult to place them accurately on the window. If the windows were individually fitted, then I guess that a jig could be created though. (Also ….they are virtually invisible ….especially compared to the handrails that I forgot to fit …. And have just noticed😃)

 

Yes, they're at the limit of visibility; before I'd decided on the toplight diagram, I thought about modelling a droplight or two halfway down too. If it got that hot in the cab, I'd imagine the passenger compartment wasn't very cool either...

[Chas Levin]

19 hours ago, Jon4470 said:

At one point I thought about modelling these handles - I was thinking that they could be represented by dots of paint. I decided not to, in the end, because it would be difficult to place them accurately on the window. If the windows were individually fitted, then I guess that a jig could be created though. (Also ….they are virtually invisible ….especially compared to the handrails that I forgot to fit …. And have just noticed😃)

 

Just had another thought Jon: what about rivets? The Archers transfer type, I mean: you could spray a part-sheet of them chrome or silver and then you'd have the uniformity of size and shape. Some sort of jig for accurate placing and spacing, but at least they'd look the part...

[Chas Levin]

On 08/10/2023 at 11:10, Daddyman said:

...D96s are supposed to have a plain driver's door and D.97s a panelled one, but I don't see evidence of that in photos...

 

Looking for other things David, I came across two Dia 96 photos showing plain cab doors, which were among those I used when deciding to blank the panels on the Worsley etches - thought you might be interesed to see them, in connection with your comment above: