Flight Simulators

[Barry Ten]

Over the last few weeks I've found myself getting back into Flight Sim, and wondered what others' experience has been. My setup is very ancient. I've got a copy of MS Flight Sim 2002  running on an equally old Dell PC which has never been connected to the internet and therefore still runs pretty nicely. At the time I bought the FS software, I also bought a joystick, rudder pedals and a few add-ons such as Flight Deck III to simulate carrier operations. 

 

I must admit I couldn't get the Flight Deck software to work properly, so gave up! But with a renewed determination, I got the catapult and arrestor hook up and running and have been having much fun trying to land a Tomcat. I think my hit rate for catching a line is about one in twenty at the moment, and most of my landings wouldn't do a lot of good to the undercarriage. Then I made the mistake of going on Youtube and looking at carrier landing clips, both real and simulated, and I began to grasp how far Flight Sim realism has come since 2002!

 

 

I'd be interested to hear others's thoughts on flight simulators and related software. Seems I've got a lot of catching up to do.

 

(ps - I've never seen Top Gun).

 

[MichaelE]

In 1997 or there abouts I started flying Back 2 Bahgdad on a PII or PIII machine. It wasn't bad and the flight model and instrumentation was outstanding. Was purported to be developed in conjuction with General Dynamics, the builder of the F-16 aircraft, and supervised by a handful of Air Force F-16 pilots for modeling the flight model and fire control radar.

 

I flew that for about three years while still piloting Cessna 172's and Mooney's and Piper aircraft as a commercial rated pilot here in the US.

 

In 2004 I bought a new house and had purchased a new Core2Duo 2.0 GHz machine and was flying a copy of the then new FS2004. There was a chap by the name of Paul Golding that developed an add-on Boeing 727 simulator for FS2004. I'm probably in the top ten of Boeing 727 fans in the world. There is no other aircraft I would rather fly, and during my training in the late '80's and early '90's, I had high hopes to eventually land in the right seat of a TWA Boeing 727-200. Alas, that never happened, but my flight instructor, did make it to the 727 in about '91.

 

Still in 2004, I started on a simple 727 setup with a home-made throttle from the guts of a commercially available CH product and a few scratch-built overhead panels, but no overhead at the time. I was still using a CH yoke and a single monitor.

 

Over the next six years those simple controls evolved into a full size 2/3rds Boeing 727-231 cockpit. 

 

Most parts came from scrapped 727's, parts houses, e-Bay, and the Airline Pilot's Historical Society located in St. Charles, Illinois. That man, who is a retired American Airlines 727 captain has a warehouse full of parts for the 727 if you can pony up the dollars.

 

This simulator ran on five Core2Duo 2.0 Ghz machines each with 2GB of ram and each running a copy of FS2004 sync'ed together for the outside views. One computer alone ran the flight model and the instrument panels and the forward view. The rest of them ran the outside visuals and one also ran Teamspeak to participate on the IVAO aviation network for on-line flying for communications and radar tracking.

 

This was a fully functioning simulator except for the WX radar and a few other unimportant secondary functions not required for flight. One huge item missing was the engineer's station and all functions related to engine start, full flow, electrical systems, pneudraulics etc, had to be brought up on the main forward screen to manipulate the controls for each major function required for setting up the aircraft for flight and an occasional in-flight adjustment or instrument check.

 

Enough of the rambling. Here are the photos. This simulator no longer exists. When I purchased a new house in 2010 it was dismantled and most of the parts were sold. I miss it terribly, but not enough to build another. It was a chore and all I really wanted to do was fly it. Not build it. It was just a means to an end.

 

 

 

 

You really have to hit the books and study the POH before really being able to fly this aircraft by the numbers. And it loves to be flown exactly as published.

 

The yellow binder is the POH with operational guidlines, checklists, performance charts, and emergency procedures. The two larger blue binders is the upgrade training course to First Officer in the 727. It's a lot of reading.

 

 

 

 

 

[J. S. Bach]

I suspect that a locomotive simulator would be a lot less expensive to build!

[Damo666]

Hi Barry Ten,

 

My first experience with a Flight Sim was a version that allowed you to fly a Jumbo jet on the BBC Micro in the mid-80s. No graphics, just all instruments. Cannot remember the name though. Heavy reading material, very technical.

 

Then I got the Microsoft sometime very early 1990s. My recollection was B&W wireframe and very basic scenery. Land was a flat grid and I think there was occasionally a easter egg ‘UFO’, but my mind may be playing tricks. However, I loved it.

 

Started doing my PPL training around this time and subsequently got my UK PPL(A) Licence, so enjoyed the Cessna and Grumman cheetah planes in FS as these were what I trained on.

 

Bought the subsequent versions FS95, 98 and FS 2000, plus some UK scenery add-ons from Just Flight, and spent many an hour happily flying about.

 

Last serious version I have here is FS2000. However I also bought the MS Flight Combat, FS Combat #2 Pacific & FS Combat #3 Battle for Europe. These were just plain fun. Without having to get into planning a flight plan, do checks and flying a proper course etc, these were just good-old fun shoot-em-up sorties. Haven’t play any FS for many many years though, probably not for the last 15+ years. However, that may all change…….

 

Looking forward to the return of MS to the FS theatre sometime this year. Their new version looks absolutely incredible and can be run on a pretty low-spec PC as it’ll utilise game engine technology. I will have to get a new joystick though as my force-feedback throttle is old tech.

 

https://imgur.com/gallery/hdWw4ds#4x09Y3t

 

 

Edited May 18, 2020 by Damo666

[MichaelE]

I had not heard of a new MSFS product until just now.

 

I may have to check that out. Might be some time before a 727 becomes available as an add-on though.

[Barry Ten]

That's a remarkable setup, Michael - quite amazing.  I'm sorry you had to dismantle it but I can imagine the work that went into it was not to be easily repeated.

 

 

Damo - thanks for that, I didn't know a new MSFS version was in the works. 

 

My own interest in flight sims overlapped with a desire to get a PPL but eventually I decided to put the latter ambition on the backburner, at least for the time being, after

a frustrating run of cancelled lessons due to weather. The itch has been gradually returning, though.

[Paperlad]

3 hours ago, Barry Ten said:

 

My own interest in flight sims overlapped with a desire to get a PPL but eventually I decided to put the latter ambition on the backburner, at least for the time being, after

a frustrating run of cancelled lessons due to weather. The itch has been gradually returning, though.

Sadly that’s the nature of learning to fly in the U.K., it took me one year to get my PPL but the sense of achievement when that little bit of paper eventually arrives is something special....don’t give up. When I started instructing I’d go for whole months without getting off the ground, entirely due to weather!

 

I second your comment about Michaels ‘homebuild’ 727 sim, it really is an outstanding bit of kit. Just out of interest, after being allocated to a Lufty 727~230(A), registration D-ABHI was given to an Air Berlin A320.

 

I can’t add much to the OP original question other than to show the last sim that I flew:

 

 

[Barry Ten]

3 hours ago, Paperlad said:

 

 

I can’t add much to the OP original question other than to show the last sim that I flew:

 

 

 

 

I might have to move the coffee table.

[MichaelE]

The A-350 is well above my paygrade. The 727 I was flying didn't have GPS let alone an FMC. It was all VOR-DME, and NDB navigation.

 

Approaches into Innsbruck were especially fun. 

[Damo666]

3 hours ago, Paperlad said:

Sadly that’s the nature of learning to fly in the U.K., it took me one year to get my PPL but the sense of achievement when that little bit of paper eventually arrives is something special....don’t give up. When I started instructing I’d go for whole months without getting off the ground, entirely due to weather!

 

I second your comment about Michaels ‘homebuild’ 727 sim, it really is an outstanding bit of kit. Just out of interest, after being allocated to a Lufty 727~230(A), registration D-ABHI was given to an Air Berlin A320.

 

I can’t add much to the OP original question other than to show the last sim that I flew:

 

 

 

At one stage I knew quite a few people in BA at Heathrow and used to organise baseball evenings between our office and BA. Got a tour around airside one afternoon with several of them, each handing me over to another mate as I move across the airport. Got to sit in the P1 position on Concord, wow it was small!

 

One pub session after a baseball match I was chatting to a new guy who joined the group for the evening. He was a BA long-haul pilot and he was telling me about their simulators. I was just trying to figure out when would be the right time to ask if I could come visit and have a session (being polite and ask not too early in the conversation, but don't leave it until the conversation changes) when my brother-in-law chipped in over my shoulder and asked if he could visit him at Heathrow and look at the simulator. BA guy was only in London for a few days and said sure. I was really pi**ed off, felt I couldn't ask also.

 

B-i-L rang me later the next week telling me about the fantastic session he had in this 737, 747, 767, A320 sim (I don't remember exactly, wasn't listening).

[Damo666]

22 hours ago, MichaelE said:

I had not heard of a new MSFS product until just now.

 

7 hours ago, Barry Ten said:

Damo - thanks for that, I didn't know a new MSFS version was in the works. 

 

You should seriously google / YouTube it, some incredible images and videos of the product.

 

MS are issuing weekly updates on the progress, including refinements, additions and new scenery, airports, planes etc. A few weeks ago they were still looking for people to join their testing team. I didn't have the time to commit, but AFAICR it was easy to request participation and quite likely that you'd be accepted.

[Paperlad]

9 hours ago, MichaelE said:

The A-350 is well above my paygrade. The 727 I was flying didn't have GPS let alone an FMC. It was all VOR-DME, and NDB navigation.

 

Approaches into Innsbruck were especially fun. 

The 350 is a doddle to operate, if set up properly it’ll do everything (almost) for you. During the design process many of the systems were installed to demonstrate the practicalities of single pilot, long haul operation, for example, fully automatic emergency descent capability or, if operating to airports with minimal nav aids, the ability to create its own ILS like approach and landing... all done ‘hands free’! The 72’, or any ‘plane with proper dials is a real mans aeroplane...just my  old duffer, old school pilot opinion.

 

If you fancy a challenge and your database has it, try Kathmandu, Nepal down to minimums. From memory It’s a 5.2 degree approach, from a VOR with two level sections and a reduction to 3 degree visual segment for the final mile...! Mix it up with ATC who try to kill you, VFR traffic, CB’s and not forgetting some, very large, Himalayan mountains...have fun.

 

PL.

[Barry Ten]

12 hours ago, Damo666 said:

 

 

One pub session after a baseball match I was chatting to a new guy who joined the group for the evening. He was a BA long-haul pilot and he was telling me about their simulators. I was just trying to figure out when would be the right time to ask if I could come visit and have a session (being polite and ask not too early in the conversation, but don't leave it until the conversation changes) when my brother-in-law chipped in over my shoulder and asked if he could visit him at Heathrow and look at the simulator. BA guy was only in London for a few days and said sure. I was really pi**ed off, felt I couldn't ask also.

 

 

 

 

Reminds me of a pub session (a few too many whiskies) where a colleague told me he could get me a ride on ESA's parabolic A310 ...haven't had the heart to bring it up again sober!

[MichaelE]

3 hours ago, Paperlad said:

The 350 is a doddle to operate, if set up properly it’ll do everything (almost) for you. During the design process many of the systems were installed to demonstrate the practicalities of single pilot, long haul operation, for example, fully automatic emergency descent capability or, if operating to airports with minimal nav aids, the ability to create its own ILS like approach and landing... all done ‘hands free’! The 72’, or any ‘plane with proper dials is a real mans aeroplane...just my  old duffer, old school pilot opinion.

 

If you fancy a challenge and your database has it, try Kathmandu, Nepal down to minimums. From memory It’s a 5.2 degree approach, from a VOR with two level sections and a reduction to 3 degree visual segment for the final mile...! Mix it up with ATC who try to kill you, VFR traffic, CB’s and not forgetting some, very large, Himalayan mountains...have fun.

 

PL.

 

 

That sounds like London City except replace the mountains with skyscrapers.

[Barry Ten]

In a somewhat related manner, I thought I'd mention RealFlight, which is an excellent simulator for radio control:

 

https://www.realflight.com/index.php

 

You plug a USB widget into your computer which then enables you to use your standard R/C controller as if you were standing out in a field.

[Pacific231G]

On 18/05/2020 at 16:51, Barry Ten said:

That's a remarkable setup, Michael - quite amazing.  I'm sorry you had to dismantle it but I can imagine the work that went into it was not to be easily repeated.

 

 

Damo - thanks for that, I didn't know a new MSFS version was in the works. 

 

My own interest in flight sims overlapped with a desire to get a PPL but eventually I decided to put the latter ambition on the backburner, at least for the time being, after

a frustrating run of cancelled lessons due to weather. The itch has been gradually returning, though.

Hi Barry

That's an itch well worth scratching as soon as flying instruction is actually possible again. It was mucking around with flight simulators (Spectrum, BBC Micro and PC) that probably got me interested in  actually learning to fly though there was a four or five year lag.

I got round the British weather problem by doing my PPL in a couple of two week residentials at Clacton. I'd started with the works flying club and the husband of a colleague started at about  the same time. I realised that trying to do it gradually on odd mostly weekend days when the weather was OK, and both an instructor and a slot was available just wasn't going to happen. It didn't for him but I got my PPL in 1992.

The funny thing was that, though I didn't find flight sim experience of any real value for actual flying,  some time after getting my PPL I seemed to be having trouble with my rudder work and cross wind landings on a 172 . Rigging up a  very simple rudder  bar (a board with a length of 2x1 bolted to it  and a lot of rubber bands all connected by a bit of bent metal tubing to a very cheap second joystick) that sat under my desk worked wonders when I used it with FS and a British product called I think Light Aircraft Simulator.   That had far inferior graphics to FS but was far better for procedures - it was based on a C152- and had a better flight model than the then current edition of FS.

Edited May 22, 2020 by Pacific231G

[57xx]

Way before flight sims existed, I used to practice my carrier landings on this:

 

 

Edited May 22, 2020 by 57xx

[Barry Ten]

I was surprised how small the carrier deck looked in that video. I remembered it as being bigger. Not sure if I had the toy, or a friend did, but I don't remember it ever working very well - perhaps we just weren't persistent enough.

[Barry Ten]

12 hours ago, Pacific231G said:

 

I got round the British weather problem by doing my PPL in a couple of two week residentials at Clacton. I'd started with the works flying club and the husband of a colleague started at about  the same time. I realised that trying to do it gradually on odd mostly weekend days when the weather was OK, and both an instructor and a slot was available just wasn't going to happen. It didn't for him but I got my PPL in 1992.

 

 

 

A colleague of mine got his PPL by taking a long holiday in Florida and doing it all in one stint. He then went on to build his own plane. I'm not sure which would be best for me; I'm a slow learner at most things but on the other hand wouldn't want to drag it out over years and years.  I quite like the idea of short-ish residential courses though, rather than battling the weather and availability. I'm also a good 90 minutes from the nearest airport with a flying club, which means quite a commitment in terms of time, given that I'd probably need to allow a little longer in case of hold-ups.

 

Anyway, managed two consecutive traps on the carrier this morning, so something's going right!

 

[57xx]

On 22/05/2020 at 12:37, Barry Ten said:

I was surprised how small the carrier deck looked in that video. I remembered it as being bigger. Not sure if I had the toy, or a friend did, but I don't remember it ever working very well - perhaps we just weren't persistent enough.

 

Maybe it's the Wagon Wheel effect? Remember how big Wagon Wheels were when you were a kid? Then as an adult you're thinking they've shrunk them. No, your hands grew.

I too remember it being a bit flakey at times, but once setup right was great fun. We had a very long hallway to the front door that I was able to set mine up in. I seem to recall getting the angle of dangle of the flight line correct was critical.

[SM42]

On 22/05/2020 at 12:37, Barry Ten said:

I was surprised how small the carrier deck looked in that video. I remembered it as being bigger. Not sure if I had the toy, or a friend did, but I don't remember it ever working very well - perhaps we just weren't persistent enough.

 

It's even smaller when the phantom is approaching from an upstairs bedroom window and on a previous landing attempt there was a serious undercarriage malfunction.

 

Land a two wheeler on a 30 degree glide slope is much harder than it looks.

 

Andy