Scorpio7uk Posted June 7, 2020 Share Posted June 7, 2020 (edited) After many years of being a member, this is the first topic I've actually posted - so bear with me. First off - a short introduction, I'm Jeff Ennis - fellow O gauge modellers will probably have seen me behind the Scorpio Models stand in the days when we were all still allowed to go to shows - I'm the young-ish (for an O gauge modeller) tall blond one! I'm usually pretty glacial when it comes to my own modelling projects so hopefully putting something on here will spur me on....... The idea is this - an authentic mixed parcels/freight train from around 1962 - the inspiration - one of Colin T Gifford's evocative photographs in his book 'Transition'. Plate 89 shows exactly the short of train I was thinking of - going over the King Edward Bridge in Newcastle September 1963 - perfect! I have tried identifying the vehicles the best I can, but some are quite small and difficult to figure out - I've had to do some hasty research along the way as some of this is outside the sphere of my usual expertise (GWR through & through). I have made the assumption that all the vehicles are vacuum braked - or at least through piped. LNER V2 2-6-2 LNER Dia. 94 Fitted 12 ton van LMS Dia. 2039 van. LMS Dia. 1897 van. SR PLV (SECR designed) GWR van (later doors) – V36 BR MK1 BG full brake BR MK1 BG full brake LMS Dia. 2039 van. LNER Gresley Non corridor 51’ full brake GWR Fruit D – Y11 BR Brake van – Dia. 1/504 BR MK1 BG full brake BR MK1 BG full brake BR Plywood van – Dia. 1/213 BR Planked van – Dia. 1/208 This is good - though I'l swap most of the BGs for something else so that there's more variety. I then saw another photo in the same book that I could also use - plate 21 Holbeck, Leeds May 1967 which shows:- SR 4 wheel BY van BR Mk 1 58’ GUV GWR van (later doors) – V23 BR Plywood van – Dia. 1/213 SR PLV (SECR designed) LNER Dia. 116 Fitted 12 ton van LMS Dia. 1897 van. Brush type 2 (class 31) Diesel I've reversed the order of this list so that it's easier to see what I do below. I then combined the trains and swapped a few vehicles so that there wasn't too much duplication (and also to make sure I get in a few favourites) not to mention completely changing the loco! Rebuilt Crosti 9F 2-10-0 LNER Dia. 94 Fitted 12 ton van LMS Dia. 2039 van LMS Dia. 1897 van SR PLV (SECR designed) GWR van (later doors) – V36 BR MK1 BG SR 50’ bogie guards van – Van B LMS Dia. 2039 van. LNER Gresley Non corridor 51’ full brake GWR Fruit D – Y11 BR Brake van – Dia. 1/504 SR 4 wheel BY van BR Mk 1 58’ GUV GWR van (later doors) – V23 BR Plywood van – Dia. 1/213 BR Planked van – Dia. 1/208 LMS D2000 ‘Stove R’ LNER Dia. 116 Fitted 12 ton van LMS Dia. 1897 van. Next - I need to see what's available! Hope I haven't bored you all with this long post... Jeff Edited June 7, 2020 by Scorpio7uk spacing 5 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium 30368 Posted June 7, 2020 RMweb Premium Share Posted June 7, 2020 Hi Jeff, Smashing idea! I'm assuming that you propose to build the train formation and loco so far as is possible with kits/modified kits? If so what a great idea as a lockdown cooperative venture across this website. I am not an 0 gauge modeller but have been thinking for some time that I would like to have a go. There are many issues to resolve and I am sure you are thinking about these. To give things a wee push I would be happy to donate one of the SR vehicles assembled (assuming a kit is available) to the proposed project. I guess ownership could be invested in a group of trustees?? Forgive me if you feel I am butting in. Kind regards, Richard B Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
brossard Posted June 7, 2020 Share Posted June 7, 2020 Hi Jeff, interesting analysis. You would need an enormous space to run a 20 vehicle train. My layout is more modest and designed to take a 3 vehicle parcels train. My consist is: 1) BR Mk 1 CCT (JLTRT, now MMP1) 2) SR 4 wheeled CCT (Slater's) 3) ex LNER Gresley 52' 6" BG (Ian Kirk) I just finished building a WR V36 van (Parkside) I also have a BR built WR Fruit D (JLTRT) I can post photos if you want. John Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scorpio7uk Posted June 8, 2020 Author Share Posted June 8, 2020 ....lockdown cooperative venture.... interesting idea - but not what I intended - my idea was purely a challenge for myself that I thought it would be interesting to show. ...yes it is a big train, but I thought I could run it at test tracks etc. when we can eventually get to shows again, then later on my own layout - when I get round to it! The train will be kits / modified kits - I'll go through this in the next post, but it looks like I will end up designing some of them myself along the way. John - it would be nice to see pictures of your parcels train. Jeff Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scorpio7uk Posted June 8, 2020 Author Share Posted June 8, 2020 Here's the list again with the kits that I've decided on that I could work with. Rebuilt Crosti 9F 2-10-0 (Seven Models) LNER Dia. 94 Fitted 12 ton van (Parkside – PS45) LMS Dia. 2039 van (?) LMS Dia. 1897 van (?) SR PLV (SECR designed) (Slaters 7C020) GWR van (later doors) – V36 (Parkside PS28) BR MK1 BG (MMP / David Parkins) SR 50’ bogie guards van – Van B (Slaters 7C021E) LMS Dia. 2039 van. (?) LNER Gresley Non corridor 51’ full brake (Ian Kirk) GWR Fruit D – Y11 BR Brake van – Dia. 1/504 (Slaters 7033) SR 4 wheel BY van (Slaters 7C022) BR Mk 1 58’ GUV (MMP / David Parkins) GWR van (later doors) – V23 (Parkside PS26) BR Plywood van – Dia. 1/213 (Slaters 7064) BR Planked van – Dia. 1/208 (Slaters 7063) LMS D2000 ‘Stove R’ (Sidelines) LNER Dia. 116 Fitted 12 ton van (?) LMS Dia. 1897 van. (?) Numbers 3,4,9,19 & 20 don't appear to be available in any kit at the moment, although the LMS vans seemed to be part of the Freightman range which doesn't seem to be available anymore - JLTRT/MM1 seem to have something similar, also they have the Fruit D, but I don't think I really like the JLTRT wagon kits (judging by the various posts on this forum) - so I will probably design my own (the corrugated ends for the vans will be fun to make!) I do have a few of these kits already - I have the LNER dia. 94 van, the BR MK1 BG and the LNER Gresley 51' full brake. I had a Birthday on the 4th, so I now have a Slaters BR brake van and I've spent the last few days figuring out that I can't accurately make a Dia. 1/504 with it - oh dear....I think I'll start with this in the next post. Jeff Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Hal Nail Posted June 8, 2020 RMweb Premium Share Posted June 8, 2020 (edited) 40 minutes ago, Scorpio7uk said: Here's the list again with the kits that I've decided on that I could work with. Rebuilt Crosti 9F 2-10-0 (Seven Models) LNER Dia. 94 Fitted 12 ton van (Parkside – PS45) LMS Dia. 2039 van (?) LMS Dia. 1897 van (?) SR PLV (SECR designed) (Slaters 7C020) GWR van (later doors) – V36 (Parkside PS28) BR MK1 BG (MMP / David Parkins) SR 50’ bogie guards van – Van B (Slaters 7C021E) LMS Dia. 2039 van. (?) LNER Gresley Non corridor 51’ full brake (Ian Kirk) GWR Fruit D – Y11 BR Brake van – Dia. 1/504 (Slaters 7033) SR 4 wheel BY van (Slaters 7C022) BR Mk 1 58’ GUV (MMP / David Parkins) GWR van (later doors) – V23 (Parkside PS26) BR Plywood van – Dia. 1/213 (Slaters 7064) BR Planked van – Dia. 1/208 (Slaters 7063) LMS D2000 ‘Stove R’ (Sidelines) LNER Dia. 116 Fitted 12 ton van (?) LMS Dia. 1897 van. (?) Numbers 3,4,9,19 & 20 don't appear to be available in any kit at the moment, although the LMS vans seemed to be part of the Freightman range which doesn't seem to be available anymore - JLTRT/MM1 seem to have something similar, also they have the Fruit D, but I don't think I really like the JLTRT wagon kits (judging by the various posts on this forum) - so I will probably design my own (the corrugated ends for the vans will be fun to make!) I do have a few of these kits already - I have the LNER dia. 94 van, the BR MK1 BG and the LNER Gresley 51' full brake. I had a Birthday on the 4th, so I now have a Slaters BR brake van and I've spent the last few days figuring out that I can't accurately make a Dia. 1/504 with it - oh dear....I think I'll start with this in the next post. Jeff I think Hayward do the LMS vans as this was discussed elsewhere very recently. Actually come to think of it I'm waiting for a price list in the post so will let you know. J&M Hughes do a lot of stuff as well. Re the brake van, is that the one with roller bearings? Worth asking on Wanted as Parkside grampus (and possibly things like the plate wagon) have spares. ps if you haven't already, worth flicking through topics in the 7mm modelling section where for some reason a lot of us put our workbenches. Edited June 8, 2020 by Hal Nail 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scorpio7uk Posted June 8, 2020 Author Share Posted June 8, 2020 I'll be interested to see sight of the Haywood list thanks Hal - I've looked at the J&M Hughes site - no kits of the LMS vans, but they do RTR of several - including a D1814 which is close but not quite - needs looking into. I have looked through the various sections on the forum - mainly to do with the brake van - some of which made me more confused! The roller bearings version appears to be 1/507 - the Slaters kit (as it is) doesn't do any particular diagram accurately, but is only really suitable for the LNER and early BR versions. I haven't found that Haywood Vans discussion yet - I'll keep looking. Jeff Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Hal Nail Posted June 8, 2020 RMweb Premium Share Posted June 8, 2020 (edited) 41 minutes ago, Scorpio7uk said: I'll be interested to see sight of the Haywood list thanks Hal - I've looked at the J&M Hughes site - no kits of the LMS vans, but they do RTR of several - including a D1814 which is close but not quite - needs looking into. I have looked through the various sections on the forum - mainly to do with the brake van - some of which made me more confused! The roller bearings version appears to be 1/507 - the Slaters kit (as it is) doesn't do any particular diagram accurately, but is only really suitable for the LNER and early BR versions. I haven't found that Haywood Vans discussion yet - I'll keep looking. Jeff It was buried in a chat about what wagon to do next. I'll have a look in the usual suspects Edit: Apologies - not quite as I recalled - there was a parallel chat with the same people talking about 3 planks and that's where Hayward came up. Anyway will let you know whats in the range when the price list arrives. A mass of freighman stuff on ebay at the moment in a job lot of parts but its going to be expensive. Edited June 8, 2020 by Hal Nail Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
brossard Posted June 8, 2020 Share Posted June 8, 2020 Hi Jeff, here are some views of my vans: BR Mk 1 CCT, JLTRT. The instructions are pretty poor with tiny photos of the various steps. I added a detailed underframe. I got a ton of help from RMweb members with the build. SR CCT (that's what BR called it). Slaters do very good kits IMO. I still had to detail the underframe and, again, got a lot of help from folk here. BR built WR Fruit D. JLTRT. I don't recall any particular difficulty with this. Someone made a series of videos which are handy. Main difference is the BR version has electric light so the van is equipped with dynamo, battery box and switch gear. Main issues are with white metal. Vac and steam pipes broke when I tried to adjust them. Replaced with Slater's. Step hangers are useless, replaced with brass strip. V36 van. Parkside kit with fittings from Slater's. I have the top three vans on threads here. John Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scorpio7uk Posted June 8, 2020 Author Share Posted June 8, 2020 13 minutes ago, Hal Nail said: It was buried in a chat about what wagon to do next. I'll have a look in the usual suspects Edit: Apologies - not quite as I recalled - there was a parallel chat with the same people talking about 3 planks and that's where Hayward came up. Anyway will let you know whats in the range when the price list arrives. A mass of freighman stuff on ebay at the moment in a job lot of parts but its going to be expensive. Yes I saw the ebay listing - wasn't sure if it was worth it or not... I saw the post on the 3 planker - According to the Gauge O Guild product directory Haywood don't do any vans with corrugated ends - and that would be the sticking point - scratchbuilding corrugated ends for 5 vans doesn't appeal - so if I end up designing my own kit and doing the ends by pressing / 3D printing and or casting then so be it. Jeff Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scorpio7uk Posted June 8, 2020 Author Share Posted June 8, 2020 John - I think I've seen your posts on the above kits - and very nicely done they are too! I assumed that the SR CCT stayed in Green - that shows how little I know. I've also seen your progress on the Slaters Brake van which was very useful - I'll be tackling this first. Jeff Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
brossard Posted June 8, 2020 Share Posted June 8, 2020 Glad to know you've been following my builds Jeff, and thanks. I have built rather a lot of kits in the last 4 years of doing 7mm. Many of them have threads. I did the Dapol brake van: I got the grey one by mistake and repainted in bauxite and pre TOPS livery. The central handrails got replaced with wire, the originals were plastic and broke. Those end rails won't stop fidgetting. Vacuum through pipe and brake gear were added underneath. John Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scorpio7uk Posted June 8, 2020 Author Share Posted June 8, 2020 I was referring to your previous post on the Slaters one.. But the Dapol one needs looking into in the future (not that keen on RTR). Jeff Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
brossard Posted June 8, 2020 Share Posted June 8, 2020 (edited) Yes, I figured that. You can build the Slaters kit in either ex LNER (which I did) or BR. The main obvious difference is step length. I posted the Dapol in someone else's thread so you wouldn't be able to find it easily. Most BR built brakes for fitted trains were through piped. As you get to a certain age, RTR tends to look more and more alluring. If someone makes a decent model of what I want in RTR I will get that. I probably will upgrade it though. RTR never hits my standards. Otherwise I will make the kit and I really like doing that. John Edited June 8, 2020 by brossard Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike hughes Posted June 8, 2020 Share Posted June 8, 2020 4 hours ago, Scorpio7uk said: I'll be interested to see sight of the Haywood list thanks Hal - I've looked at the J&M Hughes site - no kits of the LMS vans, but they do RTR of several - including a D1814 which is close but not quite - needs looking into. I have looked through the various sections on the forum - mainly to do with the brake van - some of which made me more confused! The roller bearings version appears to be 1/507 - the Slaters kit (as it is) doesn't do any particular diagram accurately, but is only really suitable for the LNER and early BR versions. I haven't found that Haywood Vans discussion yet - I'll keep looking. Jeff I’m doing the master for the LNER dia 116 van. Hadn’t done any kits for the LMS vans yet, first one will be D1663 and I know I’m doing more and wrote down somewhere which ones I’m also doing the BR CCT and will be a Fruit D as well as kits. I already do a MK1 BG Michael Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scorpio7uk Posted June 8, 2020 Author Share Posted June 8, 2020 Thanks Mike that's good to know - I'll keep an eye out for them. Jeff Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
84B Oxley Posted June 8, 2020 Share Posted June 8, 2020 Jeff A bit of a mixed Western Region biased parcels train for you for inspiration, all kitbuilt. The Fruit D in your list is available as a (very good) etched brass kit from WEP Models, I have built several. The CCT behind the loco is built from an ancient First Class Models kit which was surprisingly good for its age. The Siphons are a mixture of Ian Kirk and Scorpio ones. The Palethorpes sausage vans in the distance are unlikely in such a train but I like them! Another Jeff 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshall5 Posted June 8, 2020 Share Posted June 8, 2020 Hi Jeff, I,too, have long hankered after building a long parcels train as I much prefer building NPCS to passenger stock. Unfortunately I only have room on my home layout to run 3 or 4 vehicles at once! I believe it was I who described, on Amanda's D1897 thread, how I converted an MM1 D869 kit into a more typical D1897. It was very easy and could also be applied to a D2039, In regard to the SR CCT's they would have been painted crimson up to 1956 and then progressively into green. I believe that the Southern region tried to keep the Van B's and to a lesser extent Van C's on their own metals as far as possible until the mid 60's. The bogie Utility vans and CCT/PMV's were widespread. The former is available from CRT as is the ex LNER Thompson BZ which builds into a nice model. I was surprised that no ex LMS 50'BG appears in the pictures you are using as they seemed to be ubiquitous. Kits are available from Sidelines and Ian Kirk. The Dia O33/62 Siphon G's were widespread but, unfortunately, no-one currently makes a kit for one. Best of luck with your project, please post updates. Cheers, Ray. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scorpio7uk Posted June 9, 2020 Author Share Posted June 9, 2020 Ray, I'm not too keen on the JLTRT/MM1 Whitemetal W-irons V hangers etc - but it might be worth a go..... I now realise that I know almost nothing about the SR bogie vans - please enlighten me! My reason for including a Van B in the train is purely because of my childhood memories of the 00 Triang one - which I now realise is probably meant to be the diagram 3100 corridor one available from CRT - is this a 'Van C'? Please excuse my ignorance - I'm a humble GWR man - honest! Jeff Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
brossard Posted June 9, 2020 Share Posted June 9, 2020 The JLTRT Fruit D is generally quite good. The resin castings are well done, there's a body and chassis - that's it. The WM underframe parts are mostly fine although etched brass would be better: WM is unsuitable for dangly bits like step hangers and vac pipes. It has almost zero fatigue resistance. John Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scorpio7uk Posted June 9, 2020 Author Share Posted June 9, 2020 (edited) '.....WM is unsuitable for dangly bits like step hangers and vac pipes.....' agreed - accepted if it's a kit from 20-30 years ago, but not from a 'modern' kit that now sell for £110! The ex-WEP kit is £66! Jeff Edited June 9, 2020 by Scorpio7uk Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scorpio7uk Posted June 9, 2020 Author Share Posted June 9, 2020 (edited) ....on to the Brake Van.. I've spent a while doing as much research as I can without being able to get any 'proper' drawings from HMRS at the moment (for the obvious reason), I've put my sources at the bottom of this post. Here's the diagrams and major variations of the LNER/BR 'Toad D' 20 Ton brake van - as far as I can see. LNER Dia. 61 1930-39 Automatic Vacuum Brake, boarded door, short steps, sanding gear (removed 1936), 11’ 6 5/8” roof height, tall torpedo vents Dia. CLC10/5910 1936 built for Cheshire Lines Committee, same as above but unfitted & no sanding gear Dia. 158 1940-49 Same as above but Automatic Vacuum Brake, 2 pane glass door, concrete weights on end platforms, internal floor raised 1 ¾” + underframe truss rods, short torpedo vents. BR Dia. 1/500 1949 Same as above Dia. 1/504 1950-55 Same as above but through piped only, ‘double’ brake blocks, 4 pane glass door, long steps, handrails on end platforms, roof height raised 1 ¾” to 11’ 8 3/8” Dia. 1/506 1950-58 Same as above but most unfitted. Dia. 1/507 1959-61 Same as above, through piped, Roller bearings, Hydraulic buffers. I confused myself several times which one was which so I hope I've got it right - let me know if I've got something completely wrong! ....The Slater's kit... All looks very nice but which diagram is it meant to represent? The instructions talk about the LNER version and the BR versions up to 1/506 - the confusion I had was that if it was to be the LNER version then it needed a vacuum cylinder - but this isn't supplied - but only LNER transfers are included? Not to mention LNER W-irons? As shown by the research above, all the LNER versions (including 1/500 built by BR) had a 1 3/4" lower roof height then the BR ones (1mm) - so I measured the height - then I measured it again once I remembered to include the thickness of the roof! So the Slaters kit seems to represent the BR height which makes it slightly too tall for the LNER version (depends how exact you want to be). I think I'll have a go at making the 1/504 then! Unless I've got this entirely wrong? Jeff Research Sources:- British Railways Wagons - The first half million - Don Rowland Wagons of the early British Railways era - David Larkin LNER wagons - volume 4B - Peter Tatlow https://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/brwagons https://hmrs.org.uk/drawings.html http://www.barrowmoremrg.co.uk/Prototype.html Edited June 9, 2020 by Scorpio7uk Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
brossard Posted June 9, 2020 Share Posted June 9, 2020 You've done more research than I did Jeff. I think mine is Dia 61 from your description. I relied entirely on the instructions for the main build. As I wanted mine to be vac fitted, I appealed to RMweb and got a lot of help with that. John Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshall5 Posted June 9, 2020 Share Posted June 9, 2020 (edited) 15 hours ago, Scorpio7uk said: Ray, I'm not too keen on the JLTRT/MM1 Whitemetal W-irons V hangers etc - but it might be worth a go..... I now realise that I know almost nothing about the SR bogie vans - please enlighten me! My reason for including a Van B in the train is purely because of my childhood memories of the 00 Triang one - which I now realise is probably meant to be the diagram 3100 corridor one available from CRT - is this a 'Van C'? Please excuse my ignorance - I'm a humble GWR man - honest! Jeff Hi Jeff, I'm no Southern expert either but I bought a copy of 'Southern Railway Passenger Vans' to do some research before I built a pair of Slaters CCT/PMV's. The Van B and Van C (bogie and 4w respectively) had guard's accommodation unlike the dia 3098/9/100 bogie luggage vans with gangways - as you say like the Triang one was meant to be. I quite fancied building a Van B but at the time of my layout (1958/60) they were pretty rare on ex L&Y territory. I didn't have a problem with the whitemetal W irons on my JLRT Fruit D (B.R. dia 805) but the WEP Y11 would have brass ones I assume. There's some useful prototype information here: https://www.steve-banks.org/prototype-and-traffic/167-parcels-traffic-in-br-days Cheers, Ray. Edited June 10, 2020 by Marshall5 Additional info. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scorpio7uk Posted June 15, 2020 Author Share Posted June 15, 2020 I know of Steve Banks' site - inspirational (for this kind of project) Thanks Ray. I'm afraid after a week I have made a little progress, but I've only been able to put any time into the Brake Van today so I don't have much to show. I've started then stopped again! I started with the underframe (as per instructions then came to the headstocks - see below:- Lots of plastic dust! The brackets for the handrails on the headstocks are not equidistant, the right one is about 1mm further in than the left one, and these don't line up with the brackets on the veranda end (which are biased slightly the other way. I will probably re-make these out of Brass, so I started looking to find out what the correct width is and also on https://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/brwagons to find a decent picture, he mentions a book and magazine I wasn't aware of 'BR Brakevans and ballast ploughs - HMRS 1999 - Eric Gent' and 'Model Rail February 2002' - which I've now purchased - I think I should wait for them to arrive before going too far - some of my research might be completely wrong. Noticing the large sink marks on the veranda part above (top corners) can anyone recommend a suitable filler for plastic that would work well for this? When I'm doing these kits, my mind tends to race ahead to later stages that would easier to sort early - like considering what to do about the footsteps / running boards - plastic boards are provided which attach to lost wax Brass castings with pegs that fit into holes in solebars. I think it would be better if I used some Brass angle of some sort and soldered them to the castings - but these should be soldered off the job as doing this attached to the solebar would be awkward and dodgy! This is therefore the ideal time to make a very simple jig for later. Nothing to it - just drill the holes into a piece of wood, then later insert the brackets and solder the footsteps to them - then attach the assembly to the solebar. The pieces of wire are simply there to keep the solebar in place whilst a drill the other holes (and I remembered to drill the centre 4 holes twice as they are offset). Looking at the photo, it seems that top holes are a bit variable in height - I drilled as indicated on the back and didn't notice till I cropped the photo - (both solebars are the same) - something I'll have to sort later. Sorry if any of this is too simplistic - I tend to include anything that 'might' be useful to anyone - some of the more experienced modellers can safely ignore some of this! Promise I'll have a lot more on my next update. Jeff 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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