The Night Mail

[Florence Locomotive Works]

39 minutes ago, Happy Hippo said:

In a word, No.

 

There is an element of increased drag, but the wheel standards... Coarse scale in this case, are there to allow the loco to have some victory over Sir Isaac. Try running some of Dave's S7 stuff on curves like that and see what happens.

 

Yes, there is an increase in the drag as more of the train gets into the curve, but that is usually overcome by adding a bit more power.  You open the regulator sufficiently to overcome the issue.  This was one of the reasons that radio control became so popular with live steamers in the 16 mm fraternity.  Users would  be putting ever tighter radii in for the curves on their garden line and let us say that the gradients were none too prototypical either, so large regulator openings followed by quick closure became a way of life for some users.  You see the BL loco plus a large train running at full pelt around the circle, but there is no straight track in their test circuit.  So the regulator can be left wide open.  It also only shows it running for a few seconds, so you may find that a little later it would be running considerably slower.

 

When you are trying to fault find there are no shortcuts. you need to have exhausted one set of possibilities before moving onto another.

 

As you found when you suddenly found the steam leak in the lubricator.   Sometimes there is a large jump in performance after such a discovery.

 

Had we been working face to face and not trying to diagnose the fault over a long distance we may have found it sooner.  I'd certainly suggest that would have been the case with the initial burner diagnosis.  But that was not your fault, because you weren't really aware of what you should be looking for, and I'd made certain assumptions which I shouldn't have..

 

Since the loco cylinders are in good shape, concentrate on the burner unit for now.

 

Once you've done that you might consider the rotary reverser/regulator.  If that is not sitting flat against the port face, it is another potential steam leakage location.  I now know we are now going back over steam leaks, but it may be a possibility.  If there is not a good fit, do not immediately take a file to it or try to polish it smooth.

 

Such a task needs a very careful approach, and the parts properly lapped in together.

 

What we don't want to do is try doing too many things  at once, before we move onto the next set of checks.  This can upset the loco operation and we will then not know which adjustment is the one that made it better/worse..

 

 

 

 

This could be the problem, I can’t tell if the mess continues in into the vaporizing tube though.

 

Douglas

 

 

[Florence Locomotive Works]

@Happy HippoI have greatly sinned.

 

I repacked the burner with the original wick that the engine was known to have run well with, and as soon as it was lit strange noise it began to make. Then the flame started moving from end to end of the vapor tube during runs to clear out the priming.
 

Then the engine was stopped in the steaming bay, and somehow (I have genuinely no clue how, the burner appeared to be sealed) the track under the engine caught fire. 
 

Then the engine did. 
 

I panicked, and instead of throwing the damp cloth I had on the fire, I grabbed an enormous syringe I had full of water and emptied 250cc of water at the engine. It did extinguish it, but having heard horror stories of what happens when you shoot cold water a engine in steam, could I have damaged the engine? 
 

My apologies for perhaps wrecking our progress,

 

Douglas

[simontaylor484]

This may be a silly question Douglas have you thought about changing the brand of methylated spirits that you are using, or even a different batch from the same supplier of the alcohol content is a bit lower it won't burn as hot. 

 

Just a thought 

[Happy Hippo]

Douglas, there's no great harm done despite all the myths.

 

I suspect you might need to replace the wicks now they've had water ingress.

 

However on the positive side of life, it does sound as if the problem is somewhere in the burner area.

 

That sounds like truly vapourised meths getting going.

 

as we've discussed before, one thing at a time, so having flushed out the burner, and replaced the wicks, relight it on the bench:  Just the burner not the loc and see what happens.

 

If there is a leak in the burner, and cleaning out the crud could feasibly opened a hole up that was previously blocked by crud, this will track it down and you'll only set the bench ion fire and not the whole loco.

 

The burner will be fine as it is meant to catch on fire

[jamie92208]

You wouldn't do much harm to something that size with cold water. You do have to ve careful with large cast iron castings. There was a fire at a steam restoration centre in Derbyshire a few years ago and the water fairies, as les Pompiers are sometimes known had to be restrained from cooling down a steam roller with water.

 

Jamie

[Florence Locomotive Works]

34 minutes ago, Happy Hippo said:

Douglas, there's no great harm done despite all the myths.

 

I suspect you might need to replace the wicks now they've had water ingress.

 

However on the positive side of life, it does sound as if the problem is somewhere in the burner area.

 

That sounds like truly vapourised meths getting going.

 

as we've discussed before, one thing at a time, so having flushed out the burner, and replaced the wicks, relight it on the bench:  Just the burner not the loc and see what happens.

 

If there is a leak in the burner, and cleaning out the crud could feasibly opened a hole up that was previously blocked by crud, this will track it down and you'll only set the bench ion fire and not the whole loco.

 

The burner will be fine as it is meant to catch on fire

I guess I over filled it then. A test burn was just had on the bench, and obviously it’s very smoky due to the impurities now in the system. The photo was taken just after the tube lit so the jet above the pilot wick hasn't lit yet. Now I’ll go and finish my homework, then have another run

 

thanks,

 

Douglas

 

Edited December 6, 2020 by Florence Locomotive Works
Forgot photo

[simontaylor484]

Water when it hits molten iron and steel will cause an explosion but thats at 1000degrees plus 

 

 

[jamie92208]

7 minutes ago, simontaylor484 said:

Water when it hits molten iron and steel will cause an explosion but thats at 1000degrees plus 

 

 

It's not very nice in a vat of moten aluminium alloy as I saw one day when working in a foundry. The standard treatment was for everyone  around the casualty to throw him in the casting cooling tank. Rough and ready but It worked. 

 

Jamie

 

[Florence Locomotive Works]

Another run was just had, with no fires, but results were still the same. It still does appear to be a steam volume issue, but I am at a loss as to how to rectify it further. 
 

Douglas

[Dave Hunt]

4 hours ago, rockershovel said:

 

I wasn’t aware that Chipmunks HAD ejector seats! I remember them from Air Experience Flying with the CCF in the early 1970s. 

 

 That's why I wrote 'baled out' rather than 'ejected' when I mentioned him jumping out of a Chipmunk.

 

Dave

[Florence Locomotive Works]

HH, I had forgotten to say something rather important. The engine doesn’t run in reverse. Never has since I reassembled the lubricator.

 

When one engages reverse, all that can be heard is a loud wheeshing noise, and if pushed, the engine try’s to run in reverse. I believe this to be the regulator leaking, but as the view of it is partially obscured by the main frame stretcher and the front bogie, I can’t know for sure.
 

However this evening I conducted and experiment. The sliding part of the regulator was covered in Sharpie (ink) and then reassembled and slid over the ports several times, hopefully revealing any high or low spots. Photos are included of the results. There isn’t any audible leaking from the regulator when running in forward, but of course it does dump all that priming gunge everywhere. 
 

But I would still place my bets on it being a steam volume issue. 
 

thanks as always, 

 

Douglas

 

 

 

Edited December 8, 2020 by Florence Locomotive Works

[J. S. Bach]

9 hours ago, Florence Locomotive Works said:

Another run was just had of the Mogul, and it was about the same as the most recent runs. However the burner did light itself this time. I am unsure what to conclude from this. 
 

Douglas

Electrification! 

 

[Florence Locomotive Works]

8 minutes ago, J. S. Bach said:

Electrification! 

 

If only! However if all this falls through I will sell what I can and buy a Lionel 733 NYC Hudson. Or I’ll go back to my 4mm GWR broad gauge project. Hopefully that won’t happen though. 
 

Douglas

Edited December 7, 2020 by Florence Locomotive Works

[Florence Locomotive Works]

7 minutes ago, J. S. Bach said:

Electrification! 

 

Oh, and nice E44 by the way. Shame they were done away with. 
 

Douglas

Edited December 7, 2020 by Florence Locomotive Works

[J. S. Bach]

The E-44 drive, one center-mounted motor driving four All Nation geared axles:

 

 

 

A New Haven Jet (aka EP-5):

The model is a K-Line that has been two-railed and is considered by some as the best one out there, even better than the Overland brass import. The drive:

 

It should be an A-1-A + A-1-A and the E-44 a C + C. I will leave them alone, well unless I can get the proper All Nation center axle. Or re-power the 44 with CLW or Weaver axles.

Edited December 7, 2020 by J. S. Bach

[Happy Hippo]

Douglas, you've probably guessed by now that the screeching noise is steam escaping to atmosphere.

 

Somewhere in the reversing block/regulator there is a high spot that is lifting the two faces apart.  The high spot could equally be a low spot which is allowing the steam to escape.

 

It's difficult to state conclusively where the  spots are, but looking at the pictures you've sent would indicate that the regulator face (the one with the two grooves) and the block are both scoured and grooved.

 

At this point I'd just strip the loco down and remove the block and then  lap both the components down to a smooth finish using about 800 grit  wet and dry.  I use 3 in 1 oil as a lubricant for this.

 

You put the 800 grit on a flat surface and the very gently  rub the components face down across.

 

You are looking for a smooth matt finish, the reason for the is is the microscopic scratches will pick up the oil and make a goods seal against steam escaping.

 

Do not do this to the block:  It may be necessary, but if we do things one at a time it makes life so much easier.

 

We might also get away without having to strip the reversing block out of the frames.

 

For those puzzling how these parts work, steam is admitted through one of the ports in the block, by moving the regulator one way or the other, it directs the steam to correct point of entry in the steam chest.  By turning it the other way the steam flow is reversed and it goes to the other end.  By some clever design work with steam passages, the steam travels through the block into the steam chest and then the cylinders:  It then exits via the unused ports on the regulator face. When reversed the opposite happens, and the live steam side becomes the exhaust steam side.

 

The system is used with either oscillating cylinders or piston valve cylinders.  It can be used with slide valves, but the valves do have to be sprung to stop them lifting off their faces when the steam flow is reversed.  Although  possible, it is really to complicated to bother with.

 

  

 

 

 

 

 

[Florence Locomotive Works]

6 hours ago, Happy Hippo said:

Douglas, you've probably guessed by now that the screeching noise is steam escaping to atmosphere.

 

Somewhere in the reversing block/regulator there is a high spot that is lifting the two faces apart.  The high spot could equally be a low spot which is allowing the steam to escape.

 

It's difficult to state conclusively where the  spots are, but looking at the pictures you've sent would indicate that the regulator face (the one with the two grooves) and the block are both scoured and grooved.

 

At this point I'd just strip the loco down and remove the block and then  lap both the components down to a smooth finish using about 800 grit  wet and dry.  I use 3 in 1 oil as a lubricant for this.

 

You put the 800 grit on a flat surface and the very gently  rub the components face down across.

 

You are looking for a smooth matt finish, the reason for the is is the microscopic scratches will pick up the oil and make a goods seal against steam escaping.

 

Do not do this to the block:  It may be necessary, but if we do things one at a time it makes life so much easier.

 

We might also get away without having to strip the reversing block out of the frames.

 

For those puzzling how these parts work, steam is admitted through one of the ports in the block, by moving the regulator one way or the other, it directs the steam to correct point of entry in the steam chest.  By turning it the other way the steam flow is reversed and it goes to the other end.  By some clever design work with steam passages, the steam travels through the block into the steam chest and then the cylinders:  It then exits via the unused ports on the regulator face. When reversed the opposite happens, and the live steam side becomes the exhaust steam side.

 

The system is used with either oscillating cylinders or piston valve cylinders.  It can be used with slide valves, but the valves do have to be sprung to stop them lifting off their faces when the steam flow is reversed.  Although  possible, it is really to complicated to bother with.

 

  

 

 

 

 

 

Thank you HH for the clarification.

 

I would like to try and avoid removing the stationary block with ports from the engine, as that will require a mass unsoldering which wouldn't go very well.

 

Would it be possible to attach some of the required grit sandpaper to say a small gauge block or the wide part of a steel right angle square and rub it along the surfaces? I can of course fully remove the wheelset and frame stretcher to do this.

 

I was thinking of doing the same thing with the rotating piece, i.e. putting the sandpaper on a perfectly flat surface (the right angle square) and sanding. Presumably I am also getting a slight loss of pressure when running in forward which probably contributes to the loss of steam.

 

Douglas

[Happy Hippo]

9 minutes ago, Florence Locomotive Works said:

 

 

Would it be possible to attach some of the required grit sandpaper to say a small gauge block or the wide part of a steel right angle square and rub it along the surfaces? I can of course fully remove the wheelset and frame stretcher to do this.

 

 

I usually lap face down with the abrasive on a piece of plate glass.

 

Although it is not a long job, as you are not moving much brass, it has to be done gently so the force you apply is over the whole surface and not just a small part of it.  You don't want to abrade a small trench into the work.

 

If you think there is a lot of metal to remove then start with a coarser grit and switch to the 800 when you feel you are nearly done.

 

There are two reasons why my personal preference would be to take the block out before I did any work on it:

 

If you do decide to leave it in situ and work on in between the frames then make sure that the abrasive is secured to a block (superglue to a brass or steel bar) that is at least as wide as the swept area of the block plus a little bit extra each side.  The swept area being the diameter of the reversing valve. The problem with such an approach is it is more difficult to keep the abrasive faced onto the block with equal pressure, so you could end up putting a curve across the whole face which would really screw up the integrity of any seal against a steam leak.

 

The other important factor to bear in mind is you are using an abrasive across the steam ports of the block which you have lubricated with a very light oil.  You cannot prevent getting that gloop into the valve block ports, which means that some of it will end up having to do the grand tour around the piston valve chests the the cylinder bores.  I can guarantee it will not go straight through and up the exhaust but will take residence where there is a comfy space and will then go on to wreak merry hell inside the cylinder assemblies. 

[Florence Locomotive Works]

10 hours ago, Happy Hippo said:

I usually lap face down with the abrasive on a piece of plate glass.

 

Although it is not a long job, as you are not moving much brass, it has to be done gently so the force you apply is over the whole surface and not just a small part of it.  You don't want to abrade a small trench into the work.

 

If you think there is a lot of metal to remove then start with a coarser grit and switch to the 800 when you feel you are nearly done.

 

There are two reasons why my personal preference would be to take the block out before I did any work on it:

 

If you do decide to leave it in situ and work on in between the frames then make sure that the abrasive is secured to a block (superglue to a brass or steel bar) that is at least as wide as the swept area of the block plus a little bit extra each side.  The swept area being the diameter of the reversing valve. The problem with such an approach is it is more difficult to keep the abrasive faced onto the block with equal pressure, so you could end up putting a curve across the whole face which would really screw up the integrity of any seal against a steam leak.

 

The other important factor to bear in mind is you are using an abrasive across the steam ports of the block which you have lubricated with a very light oil.  You cannot prevent getting that gloop into the valve block ports, which means that some of it will end up having to do the grand tour around the piston valve chests the the cylinder bores.  I can guarantee it will not go straight through and up the exhaust but will take residence where there is a comfy space and will then go on to wreak merry hell inside the cylinder assemblies. 

Just finished putting the engine away after lapping both faces, and there is now no audible leaking from the regulator, but I haven’t tested it under steam, that will be done tomorrow. I started off with 600, and finished off with 1500 as 800 seemed strangely rough. These were attached to steel right angle squares, and seemed a good method to use in future.

 

As you can see, the wheelset was removed to give the broadest and smoothest sing with the paper. The photo of the rotating bit may seem a bit grubby as my oily fingers had just handled the piece. 

 

 

 

 

The Stuart Models drain tap I bought last week was also fitted today, and will be tested tomorrow under steam.

 

Douglas

Edited December 8, 2020 by Florence Locomotive Works

[Happy Hippo]

Douglas, That looks like a job well done.

[Tony_S]

30 minutes ago, Happy Hippo said:

Douglas, That looks like a job well done.

I have been fascinated by your and Douglas’ exchanges on this thread. A lovely example of internet cooperation. 

[Happy Hippo]

Thanks Tony,

 

One of the advantages of this type of sub forum is we can dip in and out of subjects and give and receive as required.

 

For instance, you will have noticed that Dave Hunt and I occasionally have a gentle dig at our previous military services, this is compounded by the fact that we live reasonably close to each other, but in truth the armed forces are by necessity symbiotic.  The tales of the support helicopter fleet bear that out.

 

I'm very interested in the  American electrics that popped up a few posts back.  I know very little about them, but find them fascinating.  Perhaps we can revisit them in the not too distant future.

 

However, Douglas's exploits have also rekindled my live steam interests, so it may very well accelerate my garden line rebuild.  Perhaps just an oval of track and a few sidings, but it will be fun.................... Certainly I ought to get back into a bit of boiler making for my stalled meth fired pot boiler conversion of my gas fired De Winton.

 

I just have to get all the other jobs that are amassing out of the way first.

Edited December 8, 2020 by Happy Hippo

[Tony_S]

42 minutes ago, Happy Hippo said:

 

One of the advantages of this type of sub forum is we can dip in and out of subjects and give and receive as required.

I think the Night Mail is rather nice, various topics but with trains too.

The steamers that Douglas posts about do remind me of teaching physics in my second teaching job. One of my classes for some reason loved the  Mamod steam engine. “Can we get the steam engine out?” I had to often disappoint them by explaining that it probably wasn’t required when we were doing optics. It wasn’t the class with the arsonist in, that was during my first teaching job. 

[Tony_S]

Later in in my career when I was an advisory teacher for IT we had an LGB train set. It was for demonstrating computer control. BBC micro plus interface box. That was popular too but with the adults who came on our courses. 

Edited December 8, 2020 by Tony_S

[Happy Hippo]

2 hours ago, Tony_S said:

The steamers that Douglas posts about do remind me of teaching physics in my second teaching job. One of my classes for some reason loved the  Mamod steam engine. “Can we get the steam engine out?” I had to often disappoint them by explaining that it probably wasn’t required when we were doing optics. It wasn’t the class with the arsonist in, that was during my first teaching job. 

We had a very charismatic physics teacher whom we called Fozz.  No idea why but it suited him.

 

Fozz never had anyone mess around in class, simply because the lessons were too interesting.

 

After one lesson which dealt with magnets and motors we were challenged to bring in an electric motor that we'd made at home.

 

I told my father this who was an electrical engineer, and I was set to work.

 

I think even Fozz was a bit stunned when I turned up with  a self starting and reversible hand made 3 pole motor.

 

I'm glad he was suitable impressed because my father had made me rewind the coils three times before he was happy it would pass muster.

 

The commutator was made on our lathe from a plastic core and a ring of copper.  We had to split the commutator by eye as we didn't have any indexing facilities.

 

It was, I hasten to add, not anything like the mastery of Stuart Hine's  9 pole motor that slid into the boiler of a GWR 2881 class loco....in 2 mm scale.

 

Certain teachers make a lasting impression on one's self, and Fozz was one of those:  Enthusiastic about his subject, and supportive of those who could at times struggle in class, as I did quite frequently.

 

 

Edited December 8, 2020 by Happy Hippo