The Night Mail

[Florence Locomotive Works]

8 hours ago, Happy Hippo said:

cannot for the life of me think what it would have looked like

Someone made an excellent P4 model of a 4-6-2 King class, dubbed the “Cathedral” class. They looked fantastic but should definitely have been issued with a spare fireman.

[Happy Hippo]

43 minutes ago, Florence Locomotive Works said:

Someone made an excellent P4 model of a 4-6-2 King class, dubbed the “Cathedral” class. They looked fantastic but should definitely have been issued with a spare fireman.

There were also a number of what if locos, including a 2-10-2T.

 

My reference was really a veiled suggestion that a Stanier King would have been a Princess Coronation, but as a sop to the GWR Board of Directors, with the addition of a copper lipped chimney.  The loading gauge would have precluded the addition of a brass milk churn as a safety valve bonnet.

 

Those that remember  Riddles' Standard 9F Evening Star will remember how smart she looked in the BR lined green livery with the copper chimney.

 

She was based at Cardiff (Canton) for most of her short career, and although a freight loco, she was treated in the same manner as the top link passenger locos which were always well turned out.

 

On more than one occasion, she was rostered on express passenger workings from Cardiff to Paddington and this was only stopped after some 'high up' queried why a freight loco was venturing into Paddington on such duties.

 

Mind you, with only 5 ft driving wheels,  running at up to 90 mph made the loco work well outside it's design parameters.

 

She only lasted 5 years and ended up stored out of use at Severn Tunnel Junction in pretty poor condition.

 

Fortunately 92220 'Evening Star' had been earmarked for preservation before she entered service, so was towed to Crewe, was overhauled and then became part of the National Collection.

 

Sadly we will not see her, or her preserved sisters on the main line again, as the 9F class is banned due to the risk of derailment due to the flangeless centre driving wheels.

 

Ramble mode off!

Edited October 16, 2021 by Happy Hippo

[Happy Hippo]

1 hour ago, simontaylor484 said:

Good Afternoon 

 

Sorry to take the discussion away from various forms of kettles I had a result in one of the rat traps with Peanut butter. A lovely catch the trap had snapped shut just behind its ears. 

The score in our shed is  currently 4 - 0 in favour of the two legged team.

 

Trap baited using chocolate spread.

[J. S. Bach]

On 15/10/2021 at 09:28, Happy Hippo said:

End of a Dapol 16 ton mineral. Factory finish paintwork done over with burnt sienna and chocolate coloured Promarker wetted with IPA. 

 

On 15/10/2021 at 11:34, Winslow Boy said:

Hmmm I'm not certain. Too even? Too flat? Not quite there HH.

 

On 15/10/2021 at 14:37, Happy Hippo said:

Yep totally agree. It's still a lot of WIP.  Fortunately, I've got a complete fleet of mineral wagons on which to fine tune the result.  Of course, by the time I get to the last one the first one will look so pathetic it will have to be brought up to the new standard.  A bit like SM42's decorating saga above.

There is a world of difference between 4 mm stuff where various hues of wash are enough and the mass that is 7 mm.

 

On 15/10/2021 at 14:44, SM42 said:

As I've gone along I've started adding a little more details to my wagons and now the early examples sit there awaiting an upgrade.

It's not much to do. Most would never notice the difference, but I would and it is flippin' awkward as a retrofit.

I may have to bite the bullet and squint at them instead

I go by the three-foot rule: "If it looks good at three feet, then it is good enough." Lets face it, the vast majority of the time, the models are out on the layout running around in a train and not really noticeable except as scenic backround.

 

Another one that bugs me is underbody detail. Unless one has a major dust-up, all of that detail is quite hidden from view; except for the brake valve, brake cylinder, air reservoir, and maybe the triple valve. All of the piping is up under the floor and well hidden. One example is this 86' hi-cube where nothing is visible:

I am real happy with this car as I built it myself (back when I had steady hands!) from a Lykens Valley kit. That SF "target" decal was a real bear to install without any ripples, bubbles, etc! And there were two of them!! The Shock one was not any easier, either. That car has survived several moves and many operating sessions so I must have done something right. Oh, and it is still living in its original box when not running. Oddly, I did not write a completion date on the bottom (I usually did back then) but my estimate is somewhere between 1976 and 1980. Even more oddly, today(!!), @43 years after leaving the erection floor, it is getting Intermountain metal wheels to replace the original Athearn plastic ones!

 

Another Lykens Valley kit that I assembled and has the same provenance as the Hi-Cube:

This car has build date and the modification dates:

BTW, that hexagonal rod replaced the wood centersill as the car was way too light and that length of brass rod worked wonders.

 

Another example of the three-foot rule, when these are viewed from further away and at the usual "looking-down" angle, the lack of piping is not apparent:

The HEATBATH* sides (with a BLT 1-41 date) were offered by a modeler who worked for them. One sent in an S.A.S.E. and received a set of sides in your supplied stamped and self-addressed envelope. The sides had no door so it was up to the individual as to what kind of final product they would have. Note the yellowed bottom car; a common practice back then was to varnish the car when complete, today almost all of them have yellowed with age and now nothing can be done about it. The top one's colors are correct.

 

*The Heatbath Corporation was around until 2015 when DuBois bought it out. Note that Heatbath NEVER owned or leased any freight cars.

 

 

 

See what riding on the train they call The City of New Orleans The Night Mail has done to me:

1. Green pannier acquisition

2. Working on a particular car after 43± years

3. Lecturing on old freight cars

4. What next??

 

I better post this now or I might be rambling on and on! Ciao.

 

Edit: Wheelsets just changed out at 1452 16oct2021; after 43± years!!

 

 

Edited October 16, 2021 by J. S. Bach
To add some information.

[Northmoor]

13 minutes ago, Happy Hippo said:

Fortunately 92220 'Evening Star' had been earmarked for preservation before she entered service, so was towed to Crewe, was overhauled and then became part of the National Collection.

 

Sadly we will not see her, or her preserved sisters on the main line again, as the 9F class is banned due to the risk of derailment due to the flangeless centre driving wheels.

You're probably right but I would say: Never Say Never.

The requirement for main line steam locos is generally for ones big enough to haul an economical length train, which a 9F can certainly do.  The flangeless centre drivers issue is essentially to do with check rails and there are many rail routes suitable for steam operation, where a check railed curve isn't encountered.  You can write an operational safety case to reflect the conditions of the route, not a nationwide one; isn't this how several NYMR locos can operate to Whitby but are not permitted elsewhere?

If LU can develop an acceptable operational safety case for wooden coaches with slam doors and hauled by a steam loco, on a specific part of their sub-surface network, so can Network Rail.

[Compound2632]

1 hour ago, Happy Hippo said:

Trap baited using chocolate spread.

 

I am told that the most effective bait for the mice infesting Lake Street, Oxford, in 1990/1, was a Mars Bar.

[SM42]

16 minutes ago, J. S. Bach said:

 

 

 

I go by the three-foot rule: "If it looks good at three feet, then it is good enough." Lets face it, the vast majority of the time, the models are out on the layout running around in a train and not really noticeable except as scenic backround.

 

Another one that bugs me is underbody detail. Unless one has a major dust-up, all of that detail is quite hidden from view; 

 

It's the underframe I have added detail to over the years. 

 

Just an impression  that there is something under there making the brakes work. 

 

I have visions of a train of wagons on a high embankment in silhouette against a light sky background.

 

The early efforts have a bit less gubbins than the later. 

 

I am coming round to the squinting solution slowly

 

Andy

Edited October 16, 2021 by SM42

[pH]

1 hour ago, Happy Hippo said:

She only lasted 5 years and ended up stored out of use at Severn Tunnel Junction in pretty poor condition.

More than ‘in pretty poor condition’, by which I’m assuming you mean ‘run down’.

There was actual damage to the buffer beam and front of the frames.

[Happy Hippo]

3 minutes ago, pH said:

More than ‘in pretty poor condition’, by which I’m assuming you mean ‘run down’.

There was actual damage to the buffer beam and front of the frames.

Caused by a minor shunting calamity in the Cardiff docks area. Probably at East Dock shed where the Canton steam fleet migrated when Canton was being converted into a diesel depot.

 

Steam finished on BR(W) in 1965, so with the imminent cessation of steam operation, she was just side lined until the move to STJ and then Crewe.  

 

Just sitting at East Dock for a time, the effect of much cleaning in the past had eroded the shiny paintwork and this  probably had had an adverse affect on the condition of the loco. Sitting on  a siding at an active steam shed with the various corrosive particles from other locos plus the salty sea air did not do her external situation any good.  The same sort of atmospheric nasties also awaited at STJ, so her physical condition deteriorated quite quickly from good to poor.

 

Under normal circumstances, the damage would have been sorted out at one of the local repair facilities, but both Barry and Caerphilly had stopped any overhaul and repair work, and a trip to Swindon, with the final closure of BR(W) steam operations imminent, was not going to happen.

 

Most of the 9F fleet received either no or very little in the way of maintenance or overhaul, apart from their day to day upkeep (such as fitters tightening up certain joints to keep the steam in) for their rather brief in service life.  By the time any were requiring  any major work, they were just withdrawn.

[Happy Hippo]

41 minutes ago, Northmoor said:

You're probably right but I would say: Never Say Never.

The requirement for main line steam locos is generally for ones big enough to haul an economical length train, which a 9F can certainly do.  The flangeless centre drivers issue is essentially to do with check rails and there are many rail routes suitable for steam operation, where a check railed curve isn't encountered.  You can write an operational safety case to reflect the conditions of the route, not a nationwide one; isn't this how several NYMR locos can operate to Whitby but are not permitted elsewhere?

If LU can develop an acceptable operational safety case for wooden coaches with slam doors and hauled by a steam loco, on a specific part of their sub-surface network, so can Network Rail.

I was under the impression that the check rail rule was applied not so much for tight radius curves but for point work.  Should a centreless driver hit, or worse ride over a slightly raised checkrail at a junction then the effect could be catastrophic.

 

To mitigate such a potential occurrence, the simple and cheapest option is to disallow the type of loco from operating on the main network.

[AndyID]

8 hours ago, Dave Hunt said:

 

there were some detrimental side effects. One of them was the increased wear in axleboxes, particularly in the rear boxes of six or eight coupled locomotives. The Royal Scots, despite being efficient (at least in the context of steam locomotives, which are actually horribly inefficient at best) and able to run on short cutoffs suffered badly from this and a Scot with worn back boxes was reputedly an extremely uncomfortable place to be at times.

 

 

Yes, I imagine the sudden admission of high pressure steam on to large pistons would create a bit of a thump . I wonder why it has the greatest effect at the rear axle? Is that because it's the most heavily loaded while the locomotive is working hard to pull a train?

 

Presumably operating with longer cutoff also slows the valve opening and reduces the rate of pressure change on the piston.

 

 

[AndyID]

19 minutes ago, Happy Hippo said:

I was under the impression that the check rail rule was applied not so much for tight radius curves but for point work.  Should a centreless driver hit, or worse ride over a slightly raised checkrail at a junction then the effect could be catastrophic.

 

To mitigate such a potential occurrence, the simple and cheapest option is to disallow the type of loco from operating on the main network.

 

Does it have something to do with turnouts that are designed with elevated check rails? I don't remember ever seeing one. Are they quite common in the UK now?

[New Haven Neil]

I believe that is the case, Andy.

 

Dave H.....sorry....

 

...but we had a footplate ride on Kissack.  Well Mrs H works for Fleet services you see, and the boys like to keep the bosses happy......and their husbands.  

 

We had to go one at a time as you know these are not roomy locos!

 

[bbishop]

11 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

 

By the 20th century, a CME didn't have to be a great designer of locomotives; he had to be a good manager who could get the best out of the excellent locomotive designers in his drawing office team. I would say that in their different ways, Collett, Fowler, and Stanier seem to have achieved that as well as their circumstances permitted. On the other hand, Maunsell and Gresley seem to have been both talented designers and good managers, but I doubt either of them actually spent many hours at the drawing-board.

 

Maunsell was another manager.  When appointed at Ashford in 1913, he acquired Clayton from Derby and Holcroft from somewhere unmentionable.   The thee of them didn't start well at Ashford when they messed about with the valve settings of the L class - sketched by Robert Surtees before his enforced retirement.  A decade later, he inherited Finlayson and Chard at Eastleigh - and these were the guys who sketched the Arthurs, Nelsons and Schools.  I think Maunsell was quite effective in creating effective tension between the teams.  Bill

[Dave Hunt]

16 minutes ago, New Haven Neil said:

Dave H.....sorry....

 

...but we had a footplate ride on Kissack.  Well Mrs H works for Fleet services you see, and the boys like to keep the bosses happy......and their husbands.  

 

We had to go one at a time as you know these are not roomy locos!

 

 

Neil, your rating has now gone up from Jammy Sod to You Lucky Lucky B*****d.

 

Dave

[Happy Hippo]

44 minutes ago, AndyID said:

 

Does it have something to do with turnouts that are designed with elevated check rails? I don't remember ever seeing one. Are they quite common in the UK now?

I have noticed a change in the design of newer turnouts where the check rail is more like a thin bar than a short bit of rail.  This is not dissimilar to continental practice where the check rails are thinner than what we usually see, but they definitely protrude above rail height.

 

However, all the track I have seen locally is still 'conventional' in construction.

 

The ban was probably put in place to mitigate for a potential risk.  Preserved Lines Heritage Railways run at much lower speeds as dictated by their LROs, so a low speed derailment is an acceptable risk.  Network Rail obviously feel that it is not acceptable on a high speed main line.  Not only would the damage cost millions to repair should a derailment happen, but there is also the financial burden that would inevitably fall to NR from the various claims from TOCs and personal injury claims.  

 

In this litigious age, if I were working for NR and carrying out risk assessment, I would not be putting my head on the butchers block for the sake of a couple of rail tours.

 

 

[New Haven Neil]

9 minutes ago, Dave Hunt said:

 

Neil, your rating has now gone up from Jammy Sod to You Lucky Lucky B*****d.

 

Dave

 

Sorry Dave!  The workshop/shed foreman James M  is a pal too, s we're well connected down there.  Debs shares an office with the 3 heads of rolling stock, P-way and overhead power - handy!

 

The one thing I haven't done is drive an MER car - but there's time!

[jamie92208]

1 hour ago, Happy Hippo said:

I was under the impression that the check rail rule was applied not so much for tight radius curves but for point work.  Should a centreless driver hit, or worse ride over a slightly raised checkrail at a junction then the effect could be catastrophic.

 

To mitigate such a potential occurrence, the simple and cheapest option is to disallow the type of loco from operating on the main network.

I think that the main problem is that many modern check rails come an inch or more abive the running rail and the risk of the flangless driver riding up onto them and then derailing is quite high. There is one such example in the middle of platform 4 at York which any steam koco coming from Scarborough  has to go over.

 

Jamie

[Florence Locomotive Works]

2 hours ago, Happy Hippo said:

minor shunting calamity in the Cardiff

Well it is Cardiff…

[Florence Locomotive Works]

2 hours ago, AndyID said:

 

Yes, I imagine the sudden admission of high pressure steam on to large pistons would create a bit of a thump . I wonder why it has the greatest effect at the rear axle? Is that because it's the most heavily loaded while the locomotive is working hard to pull a train?

 

Presumably operating with longer cutoff also slows the valve opening and reduces the rate of pressure change on the piston.

 

 

Maybe, I’m not sure. I know on smaller vertical stationary and I believe on full size marine engines the timing is often set back slightly so as to cushion the blow of the reciprocating motion somewhat. I have never heard this being used in a loco before though.

[iL Dottore]

On 16/10/2021 at 09:10, jamie92208 said:

But one without a light at the other end.

 

Jamie

Theoretically, if you went up high enough, you would find light “at the end of the tunnel"; but you’d need a bloody long colonoscope and the patient wouldn’t thank you either….

Edited October 17, 2021 by iL Dottore
Typo

[iL Dottore]

8 hours ago, New Haven Neil said:

 

Sorry Dave!  The workshop/shed foreman James M  is a pal too, s we're well connected down there.  Debs shares an office with the 3 heads of rolling stock, P-way and overhead power - handy!

8 hours ago, Dave Hunt said:

Neil, your rating has now gone up from Jammy Sod to You Lucky Lucky B*****d.

 

Dave

Dave, this is way, way beyond “you lucky, lucky, B*****d”!

I think we are talking “privileged elite” here. Y’know the “one rule for us, one rule for them” sort of thing (gods forbid that one of us great unwashed gets on a footplate)

I wouldn’t be surprised either to learn that NHN gets 100% discounts on tickets etc. (“Mates Rates”, ahem!).

Life is just NOT fair!
iD

p.s. I wonder if we should start calling NHN “sir” and tug at our forelocks?

[Happy Hippo]

1 hour ago, iL Dottore said:

 

p.s. I wonder if we should start calling NHN “sir” and tug at our forelocks?

You've obviously never met him.

[New Haven Neil]

3 hours ago, iL Dottore said:

Dave, this is way, way beyond “you lucky, lucky, B*****d”!

I think we are talking “privileged elite” here. Y’know the “one rule for us, one rule for them” sort of thing (gods forbid that one of us great unwashed gets on a footplate)

I wouldn’t be surprised either to learn that NHN gets 100% discounts on tickets etc. (“Mates Rates”, ahem!).

Life is just NOT fair!
iD

p.s. I wonder if we should start calling NHN “sir” and tug at our forelocks?

 

Yes, we do get 100% discount on all Island transport iD, but it is Mrs NHN you need to address with due reverence! it is she that works in Fleet Services, not moi.

 

My days of being addressed as 'Sir' were over 30 years go, the salty sea-dog uniform no longer has the slightest chance of fitting!  I loaned my uniform cap to a colleague some years later who got married in uniform (poser) having become separated from his, and didn't ever get it back. Bl**dy Yorkshiremen.....

 

I don't recall meeting HH, Baz must have grassed me up! 

[Happy Hippo]

16 minutes ago, New Haven Neil said:

I don't recall meeting HH, Baz must have grassed me up! 

 

 

You probably didn't even know I was there!