Original TOPS issue BR vehicle diagram books for wagons

[HGR]

Does anyone happen to have a copy of the British Railways Diagrams of Freight Stock (B) Part 3 ?

Ideally an electronic scan / PDF that they could PM to me ?

 

This is the version that was issued in the mid '70s when the wagons were first put on TOPS.

Part 3 covers vehicle groups R onwards, including the vans in the V group.

 

I'm looking for the diagrams that pre-date the recoding that was done in the '80s, so for example the multitude of obscure runners and such as cattle vans, the early 12T ventilated vans and vanwides. All the good old stuff that disappeared from BR in the '70s that I can just about remember !

 

Barrowmore has diagram books for the private owner (P) fleet of that vintage but not the corresponding B.R. stock (B) books, only later versions.
 

[Fat Controller]

If you look through Barrowmere, you may well happen on these:-

http://www.barrowmoremrg.co.uk/BRBDocuments/BRFreight1Issue.pdf. 

http://www.barrowmoremrg.co.uk/BRBDocuments/BRFreight2Issue.pdf

which have a lot of older stock.

[HGR]

FC, already aware of those thanks. They are the pre-TOPS B.R. diagrams. What I'm trying to do is see what the early TOPS diagrams were that superseded these in around 1974. The TOPS diagrams are more detailed from a technical content, whereas the earlier diagrams were more aimed at loading / gauging dimensions.

 

It's not an exact one-to-one match as TOPS makes more of a distinction between brake types, suspension  and other details that the earlier diagram book didn't so much worry about. Hence a number of different TOPS design codes will result from variants of the same original diagram. Also, the TOPS design codes include pre-nationalisation stock that remained extant at the introduction of TOPS.

 

 

[Enterprisingwestern]

 

Somewhere in my chaos filing system I've a tall, slim blue book with all the TOPS codes in, is this what you are after or would it help, don't know when it's dated though, but it's early.

 

Mike.

[SED Freightman]

I have found the red covers of the diagram books that I think you are referring too, but unfortunately the Part 3 cover is empty, Part 2 has been used to hold some international wagon diagrams, but Part 1 appears to possibly be complete with diagrams for wagons up to type O plus types S-U that presumably should have been in Part 3.  The latter diagrams are listed below and if they are of any interest I will endeavour to copy them.

SD001A - Tube Wagon ex BR Dia 192

SO001A - Pipe Wagon ex BR Dia 1/460

SP004K - Plate Wagon ex BR Dia 401

SP005A - Plate Wagon ex BR Dia 168

SP005B - Plate Wagon ex BR Dia 168

SP014A - Runner Wagon ex BR Dia 430

SP014B - Runner Wagon ex BR Dia 123

SP015A - Runner Wagon ex BR Dia 431

SP015B - Runner Wagon ex LMS Dia 25D

SP015C - Runner Wagon ex BR Dia 431

SP016A - Runner Wagon ex BR Dia 168

SP017A - Runner Wagon ex LMS Dia 19G

UZ001A - Clinker Wagon ex BR Dia 1/175

UZ002A - Hopper Wagon - Oxide ex BR Dia 169 (Modified from BR Dia 146)

 

[HGR]

Enterprisingwestern :

 

If you're talking of the TOPS guide - a pocket sized blue book handed out to freight staff, it was revised a number of times. I've got a 'pre-TOPS' version that lists the codes that were intended for the introduction of TOPS. By 1973 some of these had already been changed when the go-live date came. These books give the three-letter CARKND codes that are shown on the wagon data panel next to the vehicle number.

 

The codes I'm looking for are the design codes that appear in the big A4 format diagram books (see Barrowmore MRG). The design code is for example SP005A which is the diagram page in the book. As you can see from SED Freightman's list the good old B.R. plate wagon evolved into a few different flavours of plates and runners in TOPS days.

 

SED Freightman :

 

Yes, thanks - that's the books. I've got Part 1 covering groups B - F, and Part 2 with groups H - O. The private owners in the P and T groups have their own books (orange covers). Part 3 of the B.R. vehicles should be groups R, S, U, V so copies of any of the diagrams in those four groups will be appreciated. It appears that TOPS didn't catch up with the specially constructed vehicles in group X or the service vehicles in Y or Z till much later.

 

[jonhall]

These come up on ebay from time to time, when I was still in the market they were going for about £30 a volume, but of course it depends who else wants a copy, and how badly. I suspect the market for copies that Barrowmore have scanned has fallen, but I have found that in practice most copies contents vary slightly, depending on how diligent the office was in adding and disposing of new issues. I have a suspicion that most kept the  section that related to 'their' types of traffic quite well, but if there were wagons they never saw and didn't use, the efficiency of the filing dropped!

 

Perhaps I should thin my duplicates out when ebay next has a free listing day.

 

Jon

[SED Freightman]

3 hours ago, jonhall said:

I have a suspicion that most kept the  section that related to 'their' types of traffic quite well, but if there were wagons they never saw and didn't use, the efficiency of the filing dropped!

Jon,  In my experience you are absolutely correct, the office at Beckenham carefully updated diagram books for  international wagons along with anything that could convey out of gauge or exceptional loads, the remaining diagram books sat on a shelf covered in dust.

[HGR]

Yes, agree also. There seem to be a few different strategies to implementing the updates that were distributed from 'Central' :

 

1, Follow the instructions on the notification letter, to remove and destroy the old / withdrawn pages and insert the newly issued pages. That's the intended way that the books were kept up-to-date. When these appear on the likes of eBay you get a snapshot of the issue state when the book was last updated.

 

2, Stuff the updates in the back of the book exactly as received, and put it back on the shelf to gather more dust.

 

3, Put the updated pages in the appropriate places but leave the superseded pages in.

 

Either of the latter two techniques produce overly bloated books that still hold a wealth of interesting historical info. Maybe not how the modern TOPS AFC was meant to operate, but good for those of us interested in technical history / modelling the past. It's this first-issue diagrams that I'm interested in. I managed to get hold of Book 1 (groups B - F) and Book 2 (H - O), that are of the method 3 above, but still quite early issues. Not managed to get my hands on an early Book 3 (groups R - V) though, hence my request.

 

 

 

[SED Freightman]

Here are what appear to be the Book 3 diagrams as listed above. Batch 1 of 2

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[SED Freightman]

Batch 2 of 2.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[HGR]

SED Freightman : Thank You for those. Much appreciated.

 

[SED Freightman]

22 hours ago, HGR said:

Yes, agree also. There seem to be a few different strategies to implementing the updates that were distributed from 'Central' :

 

1, Follow the instructions on the notification letter, to remove and destroy the old / withdrawn pages and insert the newly issued pages. That's the intended way that the books were kept up-to-date. When these appear on the likes of eBay you get a snapshot of the issue state when the book was last updated.

 

2, Stuff the updates in the back of the book exactly as received, and put it back on the shelf to gather more dust.

 

3, Put the updated pages in the appropriate places but leave the superseded pages in.

 

Either of the latter two techniques produce overly bloated books that still hold a wealth of interesting historical info. Maybe not how the modern TOPS AFC was meant to operate, but good for those of us interested in technical history / modelling the past. It's this first-issue diagrams that I'm interested in. I managed to get hold of Book 1 (groups B - F) and Book 2 (H - O), that are of the method 3 above, but still quite early issues. Not managed to get my hands on an early Book 3 (groups R - V) though, hence my request.

 

 

 

After delving further into the more inaccessible parts of my office, I think my updating strategy must have been a variation on item 1 in your list, ie. amend the publications as intended, but retain the obsolete diagrams for future reference.  Having dug out my copies of Vehicle Diagram Book 320, parts 1-5, I find that they only received the initial amendment which primarily consisted of changing the covers from the previous Diagrams of Freight Stock (B), Parts 1-4, this was probably due to the Divisional Office closing before any subsequent amendments were issued.  The collection of diagrams currently in my old Part 1 cover are presumably those removed, but not destroyed, when the later 320 series books were updated.  Perusal of the 320 series books suggests that most if not all of the diagrams are still those from the older B series books, thefore I still have some diagrams for cattle vans etc.  as mentioned in your original request.  Appended below are copies of Revision Letter 1 and Preface Sheets explaining what became of the original B series books.

 

 

 

 

Edited October 25, 2020 by SED Freightman
Spelling error.

[HGR]

The (B) series books came about with the initial introduction of TOPS in 1974. Locos received the same treatment, given numbers in the MT series (MT/25, MT/26 and MT/27). There was some reallocation of TOPS codes as the system started to get used. For example, ironstone hoppers recoded from HI to HJ. Then others to make better distinction between types - such as all open HIGHs started as OH, but later split to put the wooden bodied ones into OW and tidy up the remaining steel bodied examples in OH. Incidentally, if you wonder why brake vans were in group C, consider that they started as TOPS code CAB (= American caboose). When they settled on including the brake type letter this odd-one-out three letter TOPS code was changed to CA to make room for the brake type letter (O/P/V, etc.). The only other three letter TOPS codes were ROP = ropes and RSH = sheets. These were ignored when the R group used for running department vehicles - which is where you would have expected brake vans to reside.

 

In 1981 a project was instigated in the D.M.&E.E. Drawing Office, to bring the rest of the stock into TOPS, hauled coaches and multiple units, etc. Part of this was the 'Revised Vehicle Diagram Book Numbering System' with all books now in one series of numbers. Presumably by then the (B) series books had grown to four parts cf. the original three, with the groups re-split accordingly. Some of the Book 320 Part 1 to 4 were newly printed ready-to-go, containing just those diagrams extant at 1981. There were also update kits to as you describe, change the covers of the corresponding (B) part to Book 320. At this point the stuff that expired during the '70s would be expunged. Hence no more Horse Boxes, Banana Vans, Cattle Vans (or re-use for Ale), Fruit, Meat, Fish, or Parcels Vans (that were ex fish vans). Also a lot of 12T ventilated vans. This is what I'm trying to fill in the missing blanks in groups R to V. 

 

A further project erupted in 1983 when the coaches were put onto TOPS 'properly'. In amongst this, a fair bit of recoding went on. Oh, what fun that set in motion. There was a further reprinting exercise thereafter to clean up the books for new issues. It was about this time my involvement in TOPS starts, so I've missed out on the earlier stuff.

 

It appears that they never plucked up enough courage to document the Q or Z groups properly. I only ever remember the Q series having cross-references to drawings that were presumably general arrangement drawings, rather than the usual diagram book format. Fair enough there were hundreds of these but with only one or very few vehicle(s) of each diagram. The drawing office at Derby probably struggled to keep up. The departmental stock book 350 only seems to have got as far as the Y group bogie vehicles. At the start, all departmentals started out in group Z, but this was split up fairly early on to use Q for ex-coaching stock, and Y for bogie vehicles, leaving just the 4-wheel (or more accurately - rigid framed) in group Z. Not seen a book for these - no part 2 for book 350 ?

 

 

[SED Freightman]

Having located my series 320 books, I am happy to copy the diagrams for vehicle types R - V but it may be a slow process.

[HGR]

If you could please that would be really helpful, and will be much appreciated. My two (B) stock books look to be reasonably complete up to the end of the 'O' group (but without the re-coded OH steel-bodied HIGHs and OW wooden bodied ones that replaced the original OH types. Barrowmore has book 320 parts 1 / 2 / 3 at issue revision 1, but not part 4 so stops around about the same place.

 

There was a reasonable proportion of the 'S' group that did a better job of surviving into the '80s than the R / U or vac / unfitted vans. I could do you a list of the missing S diagrams if that would help save you some copying ?

 

 

[SED Freightman]

A list of the missing diagrams would indeed be helpful, are you also able to list which of the 'O' group you either have or are missing.

[SED Freightman]

Here are the 'R' diagrams.

 

 

 

 

[HGR]

Thank you for those.

 

The diagrams that would have been in (B) part 3 were, in addition to the ones you have posted :

 

RR 001A to RR 001N (excluding that there was no 'I' suffix, as per normal practice with these things). These were assorted Runner Wagons converted from Plate Wagons. Some of these codes were later re-used for similar vehicles, but not the same as the original diagrams. I have RR 001C, E, G that came much later but used different source vehicles. Of the original RR 001 series, these were recoded from SP 005A, 013A, 014A, B, 015A, B, C, 016A, 017A, 018A, B, C, D (not in that order though). Some of these SP you have posted already earlier.

 

RT 004A was the rectangular bodied version of Diesel Brake Tender.

 

For the S group, looking for :

 

SO 001F and G

 

SP 003A, B, F

SP 004C, D, J

SP 006B

SP 007A

SP 008A, B, C

SP 009A

SP 010A, B

SP 012A

SP 018A, B, C, D

 

ST 002A, B, C

ST 003B

ST 004A

ST 005A, B

ST 006A, B

ST 007A, B

ST 008A

ST 009A, F, G

ST 010B

ST011A, B

 

SW 002A

 

For the U group, looking for :

 

UC 001A, B      (these recoded OO 001A, B)

UC 002A, B      (these recoded OO 002A, B)

 

UL 001A, B

 

UP 001A, B, C, D

UP 002A

UP 003A

 

US 001A, B

US 002A

 

UT 001A

UT 002A, B, C

 

UY 001A, B

 

UZ 002B

UZ 003A

UZ 004A

 

Now for the vans in the V group, looking for :

 

VC 001A

VC 002A, B

VC 003A

VC 004A

VC 005A

VC 006A

 

VD 002A

 

VF 001A, B

VF 002A, B, C

VF 003A

 

VN 001A

 

VP 002A

VP 003A, B

VP 005A

VP 006A

VP 007A

 

VQ 001B

VQ 003A

VQ 004A

 

VR 001A

VR 002A, B

 

VS 001A

VS 002A

VS 003A

VS 004A, B, C

VS 005A

 

VV 001A

VV 002A

VV 003A

VV 004A, B, C, D, E

VV 005A, B, C

VV 006A, B, C

VV 007A

VV 008A

VV 009A, B, C, D

VV 010A

VV 011A

VV 012A

VV 013A

VV 014A, B

VV 015A, B

VV 016A, B, C, D

VV 017A

VV 018A

VV 019A

VV 020A

VV 023A

VV 024A

VV 025A

VV 026A

VV 027A, B

VV 028A

VV 029A

VV 030A

VV 031A

VV 032A

VV 033A

VV 034A

VV 035A

VV 036A, B, C

VV 037A

VV 038A

 

VW 001A, B, C, D

 

VX 001A, B

 

Could you also have a look for any of these please :

 

MC 002A

MC 003E

MC 004A

MC 007A

MC 008A

MC 010B

MC 011B

MC 012A

 

MD 003B

MD 006A

 

MS 002H

 

OH 003C      (the original one, or as re-coded OW 003C, wooden body HYBAR)

OH 004A      original, or as re-coded OW 004A      (wood body HYBAR)

OH 019E      or as re-coded OW 015D

OH 020A

 

OL 003A

 

OS 005A

OS 007A, B

OS 009A

 

Hope this all makes some sense. Please give me a shout if not.

 

 

 

 

[SED Freightman]

Thanks for providing the list  of diagrams, I will see what is lurking in my cupboards and try and copy a few each day.

[HGR]

Apologies it's a long list !

 

[SED Freightman]

Here we go with the first of many.

 

 

 

 

 

[SED Freightman]

Todays batch

 

 

 

 

 

[HGR]

Thanks for those.

 

When you get round to the cattle vans, please can you look out also for the following that appear to have been deleted quite early on :

 

VC 001B

VC 006B

VC 007A, B

 

Cheers.

 

[SED Freightman]

Another batch, I'm afraid I cannot locate a copy of diagram SP008B.