Bandicoot Posted October 30, 2020 Share Posted October 30, 2020 Morning all, It may be that the answer is already on here, somewhere, but I cannot find it. Can anybody please tell me what the attached van/wagon is and does anyone know if it is made in RtR? Many thanks in advance. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Joseph_Pestell Posted October 30, 2020 RMweb Gold Share Posted October 30, 2020 (edited) As you may have realised, that is a metre-gauge wagon. I don't know of any rtr HOm French prototype rolling stock. The train in the background is, I think, an electric unit on the Train Jaune de Cerdagne. The curious end door is almost certainly a brake cabin. On standard gauge stock these were usually (always???) external cabins set high to provide a view along the train. This is probably the best site for French HOm: http://interfer-trains.com/index.php Edited October 30, 2020 by Joseph_Pestell Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
stewartingram Posted October 30, 2020 Share Posted October 30, 2020 Doesn't it lead to the internal staircase, to enable the bulb to be changed in the lamp on the roof? Oops, my mistake, that's an electricity pylon! 1 4 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pacific231G Posted October 30, 2020 Share Posted October 30, 2020 (edited) 1 hour ago, Joseph_Pestell said: As you may have realised, that is a metre-gauge wagon. I don't know of any rtr HOm French prototype rolling stock. The train in the background is, I think, an electric unit on the Train Jaune de Cerdagne. The curious end door is almost certainly a brake cabin. On standard gauge stock these were usually (always???) external cabins set high to provide a view along the train. I'm certain that Joseph is right about it being the Cerdagne. You can see the third rail in front of the wagon on the left, the couplings are the type used on the Cerdagne and the shape of the motor car also fits those on the Cerdagne. I was slightly thrown by the overhead in the back of the shot but that's consistent with the eastern teminus of the line at Villefranche Vernet les Bains where it connects with an electrified SG branch from Perpignan and the topography beind the station looks more like that end of the line. This postcard of La Tour de Carol at the western end of the Cerdagne is also pretty conclusive as the wagon on the right appears to be identical to the one in your photo. I don't though think that your photo was taken at La Tour as the metre gauge track there was far less mixed in with the other two gauges (SG and Iberian) than it was with the SG at Vernet les Bains From what I remember of travelling on the line in the 1970s. the main goods interchange was at the Villefranche end. Goods traffic on the Cerdagne had AFAIK finished by the time I was there but there were far more wagons parked in the yards at Villefranche and the two gauges were far more mixed up as they appear to be in your photo. REE has now introduced a range of French metre gauge prototype RTR stock (at a price!) available in H0m (hooray!) and H0e (boo!) but it seems to all be based on CFD prototypes, The CFD (Chemins de Fer Départementaux) was one of the two largest companies that operated multiple metre gauge railways in France as a concessionaire and standardised its stock which makes it more attractive for a manufacturer than individual railways like the Cerdagne with rater distinctive rolling stock. I'm afraid I don't think I have any drawings for the Cerdagne but will let you know if I find any. Edited October 30, 2020 by Pacific231G Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nearholmer Posted October 30, 2020 Share Posted October 30, 2020 (edited) I'm 99% sure that its Villefranche too. The van appears to have jumper sockets on the end, which suggests that it was configured for electric haulage, possibly with through multiple-unit control to permit it to run between two motor driving cars - I don't think the line ever had locomotives, there were some of what we would call motor luggage vans in Britain, two of which now form the snow-plough unit. Goods stock described here http://www.cfchanteraines.fr/lvdc/lvdc0137/carnet02_3.htm Edited October 30, 2020 by Nearholmer Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bandicoot Posted October 31, 2020 Author Share Posted October 31, 2020 Many thanks for your replies. My apologies for not getting back to you earlier, but I had a bit of a problem with re-connecting with the site. In my ignorance, I had not realised that the photo I posted was of a narrow gauge wagon. I am actually after information on broad gauge rolling stock which was used by the Railway Operating Division in France and Flanders during the First World War. The photo below is what I am looking for. Any help or suggestions would be gratefully received.Rd Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Joseph_Pestell Posted October 31, 2020 RMweb Gold Share Posted October 31, 2020 (edited) I'm not aware of any HO rtr French wagons that are this early and with the pitched roof format. There are some Italian wagons available rtr that have some similarities. Edit: I think that there would be a good market for wagons from this era. Perhaps worth a commission to get some done in 3D print. Edited October 31, 2020 by Joseph_Pestell Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bandicoot Posted October 31, 2020 Author Share Posted October 31, 2020 Many thanks, Joseph. I agree that there ought to be a market out there, although it may have died down, now that the centenary is two years ago. I had great hopes that Bachmann would expand their War Department Light Railway stock and, maybe, add another locomotive or two. Sadly, I am not in a position to commission something like that. I am sure that I saw a thread some years ago, where a contributor had cast some bodies for these, but I cannot find it now. Thanks for your help. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pacific231G Posted October 31, 2020 Share Posted October 31, 2020 1 hour ago, Bandicoot said: Many thanks for your replies. My apologies for not getting back to you earlier, but I had a bit of a problem with re-connecting with the site. In my ignorance, I had not realised that the photo I posted was of a narrow gauge wagon. I am actually after information on broad gauge rolling stock which was used by the Railway Operating Division in France and Flanders during the First World War. The photo below is what I am looking for. Any help or suggestions would be gratefully received.Rd I thought the ROD took their own wagons to France though they would have also used wagons from French railway companies . The standard gauge wagon is from the CF du Midi but if this was taken during WW1 it was old even then. We also don't know if this interchange with the 60cm gauge was near the front or at a depot elsewhere in France though from the context I suspect the former. I have seen other images of pitched roof couverts on French railways- mostly in postcards from the 1900s- but even then they were far less common than curved roofs. I too have always associated pitched roof wagons with Italian railways where they continued for far longer. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bandicoot Posted October 31, 2020 Author Share Posted October 31, 2020 Thanks Pacific. Sadly, although there are a number of books about the ROD, they tend to concentrate on locomotives, rather than wagons/trucks/vans. The number of photographs of rolling stock are comparatively thin on the ground, but I have got hold of a copy of the Railway Magazine for March 1933, which lists the various types and which company they came from. There are also the famous Hommes 40 Chevaux 8 vans with the curved roof, which are available from several manufacturers in H0 (unfortunately not in 4mm!) I don’t think the wagon in the second photo was British made. I’m afraid I know absolutely nothing about Italian railways, but there are quite a few photos of the pitched-roof vehicles on Google and also in Roy Link’s WDLR Album. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pacific231G Posted October 31, 2020 Share Posted October 31, 2020 (edited) It seems that the CF du Midi was quite partial to pitched roofed wagons in the years before WW1 I found this from 1906 or before on a Loco Revue forum thread about the bulk transport of wine. Beziers, in the Herault was a major centre for the sort of "affordable" wine you wouldn't ever be a wine snob over! Edited October 31, 2020 by Pacific231G Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bandicoot Posted October 31, 2020 Author Share Posted October 31, 2020 ‘Affordable ‘ wine is fine by me. In fact, any wine is fine by me! PS Many thanks for the image and reference. Will start searching CF du Midi, but not until after the rugby. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Joseph_Pestell Posted October 31, 2020 RMweb Gold Share Posted October 31, 2020 2 hours ago, Bandicoot said: Thanks Pacific. Sadly, although there are a number of books about the ROD, they tend to concentrate on locomotives, rather than wagons/trucks/vans. The number of photographs of rolling stock are comparatively thin on the ground, but I have got hold of a copy of the Railway Magazine for March 1933, which lists the various types and which company they came from. There are also the famous Hommes 40 Chevaux 8 vans with the curved roof, which are available from several manufacturers in H0 (unfortunately not in 4mm!) I don’t think the wagon in the second photo was British made. I’m afraid I know absolutely nothing about Italian railways, but there are quite a few photos of the pitched-roof vehicles on Google and also in Roy Link’s WDLR Album. Careful here. I think that all the wagons that have been available rtr are later than WW1. Using 1:87 standard gauge wagons with 1:76 OO9 does not work out too badly. If you want anything French in 1:76, you will definitely be scratchbuilding or 3D printing. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bandicoot Posted October 31, 2020 Author Share Posted October 31, 2020 Thanks, Joseph. When (and if) things settle down, i must get to the model shop and do a comparison. Some people think a mixture of scales is ok, others hold up their hands in horror! As the H0 stock would be behind other British WD stock, it will hopefully just look as though it is further away from the viewer. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pacific231G Posted October 31, 2020 Share Posted October 31, 2020 (edited) 36 minutes ago, Joseph_Pestell said: Careful here. I think that all the wagons that have been available rtr are later than WW1. Using 1:87 standard gauge wagons with 1:76 OO9 does not work out too badly. If you want anything French in 1:76, you will definitely be scratchbuilding or 3D printing. The bodies for wagons like that are not too difficult to scratchbuild especially if you're being somewhat generic. I did some metre gauge French wagons in H0e a few years ago and just used N gauge wagon chassis. if I can anyone can. They're waiting to be re chassised for proper H0m using chassis parts I bought years ago from the 3mm Society. If you can get hold of suitable OO wagon chassis kits you'll need to cut off the buffer beams and extend the sole bars- French four wheel wagons tended to have quite short wheelbases for their length as they used wagon turntables a lot. and probably remove most of the brake gear . The body can be simply constructed from moulded and plain plasticard, plastic strip and structural plastic-Evergreen etc. for the ironwork. If you mass produce a few of them the same nobody will be able to tell you they're wrong as 19th C wagons could have been produced for any of several constituent companies by any number of wagon builders. Edited October 31, 2020 by Pacific231G Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Joseph_Pestell Posted October 31, 2020 RMweb Gold Share Posted October 31, 2020 (edited) 30 minutes ago, Pacific231G said: The bodies for wagons like that are not too difficult to scratchbuild especially if you're being somewhat generic. I did some metre gauge French wagons in H0e a few years ago and just used N gauge wagon chassis. if I can anyone can. They're waiting to be re chassised for proper H0m using chassis parts I bought years ago from the 3mm Society. If you can get hold of suitable OO wagon chassis kits you'll need to cut off the buffer beams and extend the sole bars- French four wheel wagons tended to have quite short wheelbases for their length as they used wagon turntables a lot. and probably remove most of the brake gear . The body can be simply constructed from moulded and plain plasticard, plastic strip and structural plastic-Evergreen etc. for the ironwork. If you mass produce a few of them the same nobody will be able to tell you they're wrong as 19th C wagons could have been produced for any of several constituent companies by any number of wagon builders. Very true. I expect that you have come across Pierre Miquel who scratchbuilds 1:43 PLM wagons of this era using Slaters and Parkside components. Edited October 31, 2020 by Joseph_Pestell 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bandicoot Posted October 31, 2020 Author Share Posted October 31, 2020 Gents, Have come back to modelling after a break of over fifty years. I have no confidence in my being able to scratch build anything at all, let alone a wagon, but if I can find the money, I may give it a go. Thank you all for your advice. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
rue_d_etropal Posted November 3, 2020 Share Posted November 3, 2020 I have a copy of the recently published book about the railways of Gironde, and there are a couple of drawings of wagons with these non curved roof profiles. I think the design was used elsewhere, certainly looks similar to the ones at Beziers. I think some wagons still exist on the preserved line. Described as 'wagon couvert serie K'. one has brake cabin,but main design looks same as without brake cabin. The other drawing is of a slightly earlier version which is also slightly shorter. I am now very tempted to do a 3D print design There is also a drawing for a much longer wagon, with curved roof, which I think dates from 1920s, the others dating from 1880-1899. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bandicoot Posted November 3, 2020 Author Share Posted November 3, 2020 @rue-d-etropal. Simon, I you could be tempted into doing these in 3D, I’m sure there would be a lot of people who would call down blessings on your head. Similarly, if you thought of producing the ubiquitous Hommes 40 Chevaux 8 vans/wagons, I think there are a lot of uk modellers who would love these in 1:76 scale. All the newer H0 wagons seem to be sold out/no longer available and the ones I have seen on eBay are usually damaged or in poor condition. My 20 and 40 hp Simplexes turned out very well, by the way. Need to get back to you on a couple more 40hp variants. Please consider making the shorter version. Also, perhaps a second one with the brakeman’s cab. Holding my breath here! Kind regards, John Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
rue_d_etropal Posted November 3, 2020 Share Posted November 3, 2020 (edited) I don't do many wagons, but these could be useful, mainly because they are pre WW1, so would be used for WW1 modelling. They are not a complex design and chassis is easier than some(no hand brake) Edited November 3, 2020 by rue_d_etropal Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bandicoot Posted November 3, 2020 Author Share Posted November 3, 2020 Fingers crossed Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
rue_d_etropal Posted November 3, 2020 Share Posted November 3, 2020 I tend to jump around from region to region, railway to railway, partly so I don't get bored. Just working on something else, but hopefully next project will be the wagons. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
rue_d_etropal Posted November 5, 2020 Share Posted November 5, 2020 started on van design.Because of its width it look lower , but I am sure that is an optical illusion Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick_Burman Posted November 5, 2020 Share Posted November 5, 2020 Makette makes a kit for "Grands Réseaux" vans, including the Midi version: http://www.makette.de/makette/kits.html (scroll down) Cheers NB 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
rue_d_etropal Posted November 5, 2020 Share Posted November 5, 2020 (edited) interesting, certainly shows how far these wagons travelled. I wonder if anyone does thes wagons in any other scale. For anyone wanting them for WW1 themed layouts I suspect they are more likely to model in 1/76 not 1/87, although there are now some military models in 1/87 scale. Edited November 5, 2020 by rue_d_etropal Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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