ScaleTrains buys MTH HO and S scale tooling

[mdvle]

just announced at Springfield, announcement below from another forum as posted by ScaleTrains

 

ScaleTrains.com™, Inc., a leading manufacturer of HO and N Scale model trains, announced the acquisition of M.T.H. Electric Trains® HO Scale and S Gauge tooling assets. Learn more from our announcement video: youtu.be/moYQb1tCIVM

“MTH is recognized as a leading manufacturer of HO scale steam locomotives. The purchase of MTH’s HO products also allows us to broaden our product line into passenger cars, track, and more. We believe there is an opportunity to grow the S market as well.” said Shane Wilson, President of ScaleTrains.com.

The acquisition includes steam and diesel locomotives, freight cars, and track in both scales. The HO tooling also includes turbine and electric locomotives, subway sets, passenger cars, and more. Engineering schematics for several all-new steam era HO projects were also received as part of the agreement.

“ScaleTrains.com has a great reputation in the industry and the M.T.H. HO tooling will make a great addition to their already impressive HO lineup.” Stated Mike Wolf, President of M.T.H. Electric Trains. “S Gauge fans will find the ScaleTrains.com team loaded with talent and model railroading experience.”

Both scales are being melded into ScaleTrains.com umbrella of brands including Rivet Counter™. Several molds have been transferred to the ScaleTrains.com factory and testing is already underway. Over the next few months design will begin to convert the models to accept the ScaleTrains.com motor and change to ESU-LokSound® electronics including DCC & sound. The first models are expected to be available in 2022.

ScaleTrains.com is making significant investments in infrastructure to better service more brick-and-mortar retailers in the future. Although ScaleTrains.com is currently not accepting new retailers, dealers are welcome to send their contact information to retailers@scaletrains.com in anticipation of opening new brick-and-mortar accounts within the next year.

M.T.H. Electric Trains will fulfill all outstanding customer HO and S Scale preorders. In addition, service and support for products sold by M.T.H. Electric Trains will be serviced by the current M.T.H. Authorized Service Center network. This includes part sales.

Products manufactured by ScaleTrains.com will be serviced by Product Support in Benton, TN.

For additional information, please contact Hollie Smith at Hollie@ScaleTrains.com.

 

[mdvle]

 

[mdvle]

James Wright (jlwii2000 on YouTube) did an interview session with ScaleTrains covering their Springfield announcements.

 

Of interest to this thread is starting after the 10 minute point where they discuss what happens with the MTH stuff, and how they think it fits into the ScaleTrains product line

 

 

[F-UnitMad]

Interesting stuff with the S Scale in particular. I wonder if they'll just do 2-rail scale?

One thing that always confused me with MTH's O gauge/scale range was that although some 3-rail locos were sold with alternative 2-rail wheelsets, the bodies still seemed to be 3 rail, with truck-mounted pilots and short-drop corner handrails. Other locos had 2-rail bodies with fixed pilots & long-drop handrails, but blowed if I could work out which were which!! 

[Regularity]

12 minutes ago, F-UnitMad said:

Interesting stuff with the S Scale in particular. I wonder if they'll just do 2-rail scale?

Not aware of anything other than 2-rail, Jordan.

But, as the "high-rail" community accounts for roughly 5/6 of the S scale market, doing only so-called "scale" (it actually uses code 110 wheels, not far off proto:48) would be a financial disaster.

 

There was a great range of items available from S Helper Service, but very little came out under MTH. I hope the pattern is not repeated. We shall have to wait and see.

 

[mdvle]

5 hours ago, Regularity said:

But, as the "high-rail" community accounts for roughly 5/6 of the S scale market, doing only so-called "scale" (it actually uses code 110 wheels, not far off proto:48) would be a financial disaster.

 

Maybe, depends on what their thoughts and goals are.

 

The first point to be made is that hi-rail may be 5/6 of the S market, but 5/6 of nothing is still nothing - and yes, S is bigger than nothing, but not by much.

 

My hope is they are more thinking of doing what Heljan did with 7mm - create a new bigger than HO scale market.

 

For years there have been people asking ScaleTrains, Rapido, etc to enter the S and O markets - not because they want hi-rail from them but because they want something like HO but bigger.  So the potential is likely there if they can grab it.

 

Attempting to grow the S hi-rail market is likely doomed as it will be difficult to compete against the wide range of product from Lionel and whoever ends up with MTH O.

 

As they said in the James Wright video, the MTH acquisition make the ScaleTrains product line 4X bigger - that is once they get everything sorted out a lot more revenue consistently each year that could allow them more opportunity to experiment or build a new market.

 

 

 

 

[Regularity]

30 minutes ago, mdvle said:

Attempting to grow the S hi-rail market is likely doomed as it will be difficult to compete against the wide range of product from Lionel and whoever ends up with MTH O.

Well, obviously Don Thompson’s fantastic sales to the hi-rail market, making the point that the models came with AF compatible wheels and couplers fitted, and which basically made the whole range feasible we’re just a figment of my imagination. S scale appeals to two markets: those with a

memory of American Flyer toys from childhood, and those who prefer a more individualistic approach to their modelling.

 

The downside of S is the up-front tooling costs, second biggest is that relatively speaking, the return on capital investment is not as fast as for H0, N or 0, but it still pays a return over a reasonable time. By making models to basic scale dimensions, and with accurate trucks, etc, the “scale” market is opened up and increases the market potential by approximately 20%, by reaching out to the 1 “scale” modeller for every “hi-rail” modeller.

[mdvle]

1 hour ago, Regularity said:

Well, obviously Don Thompson’s fantastic sales to the hi-rail market, making the point that the models came with AF compatible wheels and couplers fitted, and which basically made the whole range feasible we’re just a figment of my imagination.

 

Don Thompson left the S scale market 8 years ago when he sold SHS to MTH.

 

The model train hobby has changed a lot in the intervening decade, including MTH essentially doing next to nothing with the S scale tooling they purchased.

 

What he did 10+ years ago is no longer acceptable to most in the scale modelling crowd - and this isn't restricted to S, look at how the Atlas O line is effectively dead with nothing new being tooled.

 

Scale modellers are no longer willing to accept the compromises necessary to allow a single model to serve both the scale and hi-rail categories, hence the reason why scale modellers are generally (and sadly) avoiding S and O.

 

1 hour ago, Regularity said:

S scale appeals to two markets: those with a

memory of American Flyer toys from childhood, and those who prefer a more individualistic approach to their modelling.

 

American Flyer died 50 years ago, and probably was at it's peak 60 or so years ago, and the market for those with a childhood memory of American Flyer is one of the few parts of this hobby that really is dying - and those with a fondness for American Flyer will stick with the "modern" American Flyer line from Lionel.

 

Attempting to either continue or build a market around American Flyer is doomed to fail as you simply can't compete with the hi-rail product selection in O, which is where those interested in the hi-rail aspect of the hobby will go these days given they won't have the American Flyer nostalgia.

 

1 hour ago, Regularity said:

By making models to basic scale dimensions, and with accurate trucks, etc, the “scale” market is opened up and increases the market potential by approximately 20%, by reaching out to the 1 “scale” modeller for every “hi-rail” modeller.

 

Today's scale modeller, as opposed to the modellers of 10+ years ago, expect more than just basic scale dimensions.  They are put off by the sacrifices made to the models to allow for train set curves among other issues, and thus are either scratchbuilding everything or staying in HO or N.

[F-UnitMad]

1 hour ago, mdvle said:

Scale modellers are no longer willing to accept the compromises necessary to allow a single model to serve both the scale and hi-rail categories, hence the reason why scale modellers are generally (and sadly) avoiding S and O.

True enough, I think. 3-rail really has strangled the life out of the 2-rail options for American outline O scale. I have put up with some '3-rail legacy' compromises on some of my O Scale models, mainly my Atlas Trainman RS3, but the cost of new Atlas 2-rail trucks alone these days puts me off buying 3-rail cars and converting them - the trucks cost more than I've paid for many of my cars in the first place!!

Years ago now I did look at US S Scale; Chris Ellis did some articles about it in his Model Trains International magazine, and I saw some at the Warley NEC show, and spoke with the girl behind the layout - but mostly about the NCE Powercab she was using, as I was contemplating DCC at the time.

The limited range and availability of 2-Rail S put me off, as well as the prices - higher than O it seemed. Then there was the issue of "is it 3-rail or 2-rail?"....

I'm too far into O Scale these days to change to S now, but I do agree it is a nice 'in between' scale with better heft and presence than HO, but not so space-hungry as O, with the added benefit of a close-to-accurate track gauge.

I also prefer to model slightly outside of the 'mainstream'; fortunately for me US O is quite far outside the UK mainstream, but with the increased popularity of British O, I'd be very tempted by a range of "B.R. Blue" in S Scale. Equally fortunately (for my wallet at least), my suggestion of such a range over on another Thread here has had just 2 'likes' in response. Seems a lot of people think reviving 3mm/TT would be a good idea..!!!  

 

[Regularity]

2 hours ago, mdvle said:

What he did 10+ years ago is no longer acceptable to most in the scale modelling crowd

And you speak for them all on what basis? Are you active in S? Involved in S? Taking a lead in S?

Just asking: I have no idea who you would be, not having noticed your moniker in S scale circles.

[mdvle]

2 hours ago, F-UnitMad said:

True enough, I think. 3-rail really has strangled the life out of the 2-rail options for American outline O scale. I have put up with some '3-rail legacy' compromises on some of my O Scale models, mainly my Atlas Trainman RS3, but the cost of new Atlas 2-rail trucks alone these days puts me off buying 3-rail cars and converting them - the trucks cost more than I've paid for many of my cars in the first place!!

 

My feeling is that we are at a point where (in the scale world) there is a "main" option - HO / OO - and then there is likely enough of a market for 1 smaller scale and 1 larger scale.  In both the US and the UK that smaller scale is N, and in the UK the larger scale is thanks to Heljan 7mm/O.  The potential is there in the US (there are enough people who periodically look wistfully and give up) but the 2 options - O and S - both still have enough adherents that demand any attempt at a scale offering also has to run on their hi-rail layouts.

 

But of the 2, O is by far the stronger of the 2 hi-rail options with a very extensive range of product from both Lionel and MTH - any attempt at a scale O option will simply get drowned out.

 

Which leaves S, which has 2 big advantages for the scale wanting people.  First, while the hi-rail crowd currently dominates S it is a very small community that is slowly dying anyway - making it easier for a company wanting to offer scale S models to gain traction.  Secondly, scale models need larger curves, and in this S obviously is more advantageous than O.

 

2 hours ago, F-UnitMad said:

Equally fortunately (for my wallet at least), my suggestion of such a range over on another Thread here has had just 2 'likes' in response. Seems a lot of people think reviving 3mm/TT would be a good idea..!!!

 

The only way 3mm/TT would stand a chance is if N died, and Revolution is doing too good a job for that to happen.

[mdvle]

1 hour ago, Regularity said:

And you speak for them all on what basis? Are you active in S? Involved in S? Taking a lead in S?

Just asking: I have no idea who you would be, not having noticed your moniker in S scale circles.

 

While I may not have been clear, I was referring to the scale modelling crowd who are currently in HO or N and looking for a bigger scale to move to - and nothing currently offered in S other than brass is anywhere close.

 

When these people participate in the online Q&A's, and they ask ScaleTrains, Athearn (last week!) and Rapido about doing O or S, they aren't asking for hi-rail stuff - they want accurate stuff.

 

As for S, I keep an eye on it.

 

I got introduced to S through the excellent free-mo layout by the S Scale Workshop, having had the privilege of seeing it in action several times.  Then by following the Port Rowan blog.  And I note that almost everything used is brass, and I look at the offerings - whether MTH or American Models - and I see toys(*) that need so much work to make scale that you may as well start from scratch.

 

I see the 2021 Lionel catalogs - American Flyer S at a measly 12 pages while O is 120+ pages.  That says American Flyer is in trouble.

 

I follow a mailing list - and see the frequent moaning about the lack of decent models, the lack of manufacturer support, cursing MTH for buying all that tooling and not using it, etc.

 

As exemplified by a regular poster, announcing the ScaleTrains news, stating "This could be the BIG ONE S has been waiting to happen for 60 years."  while asking if it is too soon to vote ScaleTrains the S manufacturer of the year.  That isn't the response of a community that is happy and healthy.

 

* - I don't say that to be insulting - for those who want hi-rail they are exactly what they want, and that is great - but that isn't what the scale modelling community wants.

[Regularity]

8 hours ago, mdvle said:

Then by following the Port Rowan blog.  And I note that almost everything used is brass

The locos, yes, and a baggage car, plus a few freight cars. There is plenty of injection moulded rolling stock, too, plus resin, plastic and multi-media kits. A lot of the RTR, either as it comes or after a little modification to adapt the prototype details, is very accurate. Your memory is a touch selective. 
Trevor wrote a piece on how much was available, “Breaking Marley’s Chains”, which is well worth reading.

 

But the only way to know what is going on in S scale is to get involved with it: personally, it appeals as it is a modeller’s scale.

 

Quote

As exemplified by a regular poster, announcing the ScaleTrains news, stating "This could be the BIG ONE S has been waiting to happen for 60 years."  while asking if it is too soon to vote ScaleTrains the S manufacturer of the year.  That isn't the response of a community that is happy and healthy.

There are some who like to whine that there isn’t the range of quality RTR that is there for H0, or even 0, or who want brass quality models in injection moulded plastic at the low end of H0 price ranges - but only if it suits their exact needs, despite the particular prototype they have in made existing in quantities of no more than one. Most of my S scale friends in North America (including Trevor Marshall of Port Rowan fame) tend to either not get involved or pay scant regard to the lists. I wouldn’t say that regular list posters are ipso facto a typical example of S scale: some of them are resourceful modellers, making maximum use of what is available to create very good models, but complainers and naysayers tend to have loud voices. It is a shame that MTH did so little with the moulds, though, and revamped a lot of things to suit their proprietary products.

 

If you look at the range of RTR from S Scale America, as well as the former SHS range, plus a lot of the current American Models range, then there is a lot which isn’t toylike - and like you, I have no problem with honest to goodness toys: they are what they are, and can be as enjoyable as “serious” modelling.

 

Edited February 2, 2021 by Regularity

[F-UnitMad]

8 hours ago, mdvle said:

they ask ScaleTrains, Athearn (last week!) and Rapido about doing O or S,

I mentioned the possibility of O Scale on a Rapido thread here. The answer was a straight 'No'. They quite simply don't see any worthwhile market for US Scale O out there.

 

[tpm1ca]

4 hours ago, Regularity said:

Most of my S scale friends in North America (including Trevor Marshall of Port Rowan fame) tend to either not get involved or pay scant regard to the lists.

We’re too busy building layouts and modifying dodgy S scale RTR ...

(Grin!)

[mdvle]

4 hours ago, F-UnitMad said:

I mentioned the possibility of O Scale on a Rapido thread here. The answer was a straight 'No'. They quite simply don't see any worthwhile market for US Scale O out there.

 

Yes, as Jason (if I recall correctly) noted the hi-rail portion of O is so strong with so much product being offered that scale simply can't survive in O.

 

The same isn't true for S, but the problem with S is being able to afford to attempt to build the market.

[mdvle]

5 hours ago, Regularity said:

The locos, yes, and a baggage car, plus a few freight cars. There is plenty of injection moulded rolling stock, too, plus resin, plastic and multi-media kits. A lot of the RTR, either as it comes or after a little modification to adapt the prototype details, is very accurate. Your memory is a touch selective. 
Trevor wrote a piece on how much was available, “Breaking Marley’s Chains”, which is well worth reading.

 

Thank you for confirming my point - Trevor's piece is full of brass, custom stuff, resin kits, etc and what RTR is used needs upgrading.

 

This isn't what most people want - they want scale models they can buy and place on their layout.

 

5 hours ago, Regularity said:

 personally, it appeals as it is a modeller’s scale.

 

Which is great - if you are into the building of rolling stock, whether kits or scratchbuilding, S probably holds a lot of appeal.  But that is a limited part of this hobby.

 

5 hours ago, Regularity said:

If you look at the range of RTR from S Scale America, as well as the former SHS range, plus a lot of the current American Models range, then there is a lot which isn’t toylike - and like you, I have no problem with honest to goodness toys: they are what they are, and can be as enjoyable as “serious” modelling.

 

From what I can see from looking, sorry but they are toylike - I periodically look at the American Models stuff but dismiss them based on looks - but that comes with the caveat that those manufacturers are still in the 1990s with poor websites with tiny pictures designed for 56k dial-up.

 

 

 

 

[mdvle]

Posted on another forum by ScaleTrains:

 

Quote

Just so we’re all on the same page about our plans for the MTH HO and S tooling…

We are designing and tooling new motor mounts so the locomotives can use our motor. We’re also designing a new main board so we can utilize ESU-LokSound DCC & sound.

We have no plans to extensively rework the external details of current MTH HO and S models.

We’ve received feedback about potential dimensional and detail issues with specific products and will take the information under advisement. If the issue can be fixed with a limited amount of time and money, we may make the investment. If the issue cannot be resolved easily, we may continue with the model as is or retire it.

Our team was a part of the GP7/9 and ES44 tooling acquisitions at our previous employer. We know how much time and money it cost to bring these models into the Genesis line. Starting from scratch would have been less time consuming and less expensive.

If there is a current model in the MTH HO line-up that does not meet the Rivet Counter or Museum Quality standard and we believe there is a market in the Rivet Counter or Museum Quality lines, we’ll start the project from square one.

MTH has designed and engineered several steam era locomotives, freight cars, and passenger cars that are yet to be tooled. Over the next several years, we’ll bring many of these projects to market. Since they are designed and not tooled, we will ensure they meet Rivet Counter or Museum Quality specifications.

Thanks,

Shane


Shane Wilson
President
ScaleTrains.com, Inc.

 

[spamcan61]

3 minutes ago, mdvle said:

Posted on another forum by ScaleTrains:

 

 

Refreshingly candid!

[mdvle]

Following up to the statement by ScaleTrains, the consensus on another forum is that the Steam & Electric locos and the passenger cars are the big gains in this deal, they are all well regarded and will only be better (for the locos) with the move to standard DCC and ESU sound decoders.  The freight cars also have some potential, but most of the diesels are (in others opinions) not great.

[jasond]

I've been thru' all my Crosby, Stills, Nash and Young LPs with a black felt pen cos' if it wasn't for Neil Young, Lionel might have faded away years ago, leaving just 2-rail on the market.  Oh OK they had another bad episode in the noughties.  Can't find my black marker, back to real life ... O-scale 2-rail ... brou-ha-ha-haaaa!!

Jason

[jasond]

Oh, and S Scale America freight cars are v nice.

[Regularity]

1 hour ago, mdvle said:

From what I can see from looking, sorry but they are toylike - I periodically look at the American Models stuff but dismiss them based on looks - but that comes with the caveat that those manufacturers are still in the 1990s with poor websites with tiny pictures designed for 56k dial-up.

I think that's a very fair comment: the S scale "shop window" is very poor, and things like the IO list aren't always a good indicator.

 

That said, your criticisms of S are based on looking, and not actually from being an active modeller in S. "I read an email list and looked at someone's blog" don't really position you as a spokesperson for the scale.

Be good to have decent motors and ESU decoders. I wonder what we will see in production, though, out of the original SHS stud of B&O Consolidation, SW1, SW8, SW9, NW2, F3A and F3B, F7, etc.

 

Lots of products past and present for S scale listed here: https://www.nasg.org/Gallery/index.php 

 

[F-UnitMad]

2 hours ago, mdvle said:

Yes, as Jason (if I recall correctly) noted the hi-rail portion of O is so strong with so much product being offered that scale simply can't survive in O.

I think the other major stumbling block is the average US 'mindset' that focuses on a 'successful' model railroad being a basement empire that moves long trains from town to town, for which HO & N are ideal, and O scale less so - except that 3-rail can turn sharp corners, so if you don't mind what things look like below the footplate, that's the option they'll go for.

The fact that 2-rail diesels can take 36" radius curves is lost - admitedly they don't look brilliant doing it, but as the main Era of interest in the US seems to resolutely be the 1950s/60s Transition Era, then 2-rail steam locos need much wider curves. 

From what I've seen on the 3-rail side of the OGR Forum, 3-railers rarely make the move to 2-rail - they are scared stiff of short circuits, it's as if 2-rail HO & N don't exist as examples. They also want their balloon tracks and suchlike - the 'big layout' mentality again.

I bet no one in the USA would look at my space of 17ft x 8ft, and put a 2-rail O Scale layout in it. They'd think it was too small for HO, almost!!!

[Regularity]

33 minutes ago, F-UnitMad said:

I think the other major stumbling block is the average US 'mindset' that focuses on a 'successful' model railroad being a basement empire that moves long trains from town to town, for which HO & N are ideal, and O scale less so - except that 3-rail can turn sharp corners, so if you don't mind what things look like below the footplate, that's the option they'll go for.

I think that is an impression gained from certain figures in the modelling "establishment" and the model press, but most LHS traders (where they still exist) will tell you that most of their customers have a piece of 8'x4' plywood, which may be stood on its side a lot of the time. As such, like most modellers in the UK, they are primarily collectors who wish to operate their models, maybe do a bit of detailing and go as far as building some buildings, but they will stick to the mainstream scales.

Quote

 

The fact that 2-rail diesels can take 36" radius curves is lost - admitedly they don't look brilliant doing it, but as the main Era of interest in the US seems to resolutely be the 1950s/60s Transition Era, then 2-rail steam locos need much wider curves. 

From what I've seen on the 3-rail side of the OGR Forum, 3-railers rarely make the move to 2-rail - they are scared stiff of short circuits, it's as if 2-rail HO & N don't exist as examples.

 

Railway modellers seem to be a very odd bunch, very conservative, and frequently don't think outside of their own brightly coloured box.

Quote

I bet no one in the USA would look at my space of 17ft x 8ft, and put a 2-rail O Scale layout in it. They'd think it was too small for HO, almost!!!

Sorry, Jordan, but I think you have taken a stereotype (what is seen, and promulgated in the press) as an archetype (what actually is).

 

The biggest single cost in mass-produced RTR is the initial die-sinking: the production costs are quite low, but add in multi-colour paint schemes and then separately added details, and the prices tend to go back up again.

 

 

But, as has been shown repeatedly, detailed and accurate models for 0 and S can be produced which are aimed at both markets. Out of the box, riding slightly high on the trucks with hi-rail wheels and enormous couplers, remove the trucks, take out a spacing washer and fit (more close to) scale wheels (insulated for 0-scale 2 rail) and new couplers (probably Kadees), and there you are: a model suitable for the scale rather than the toy market. Throw away the trucks and fit new ones, and you can also have a fine scale model. *

It's not impossible: it just means accepting that the "toy" market dominates in US outline 0 and S: RTR 2-rail scale is a bonus, but of the models are accurate, then they can appeal to both markets.

 

* American Models can be ordered with the appropriate wheels, and also for AC operation. SHS used to include alternative wheel sets. MTH stopped doing this to cut costs, and because the toy market - much bigger than the "scale" market - complained about buying things they didn't need. (No, I don't recall the prices going down!)

 

I think the biggest problem with S scale is that the limited market means that the models are sometimes more expensive than 0 scale, which makes the "you have more space, so can have more models" argument even less compelling!