3D printed Southern Electrics

[Guest]

Not sure if this is the right place for this topic, being about Southern Electric models rather than the prototypes themselves, but it seems like the best way to get informed feedback.

 

I have been experimenting with 3D printing as a way of creating unusual or unique Southern Electric models.  A 2 Wim unit, rebuilt from the LBSCR’s original South London a.c. stock, worked out well so I pushed my luck with a Southern 1945-type augmentation trailer for a bull-nosed 1925 Sub.  Despite the ultra-thin sides being almost translucent it did not crack, twist or crumble during assembly and the completed model feels robust enough to withstand normal handling, giving me the confidence to tackle units from the long production run of jig-assembled Bulleid all-steel Sub and EPB units.

 

Potentially these include:

 

4111-type 4 Sub

4621-type 4 Sub

2693-type Tin Hal

5001 and 5101-type 4 EPB

5601-type 2 Hap

5651-type  2 EPB

 

 

Although I am doing these projects primarily for my own satisfaction it makes me wonder whether there is a viable market for a wider range of Southern Electric stock than is currently on offer from the major manufacturers.

 

The first issue is running gear.  I use Hornby 2 Bil/2 Hal units bought secondhand on Ebay - these usually cost about £70-£80.  For 2-car units such as the post-war Bulleid Tin Hals it should be possible to re-use the complete underframes and bogies whilst the Bulleid 59xx 2 Haps and 2 EPBs would need minor changes to the underfloor equipment.

 

Things get a bit more complicated with 4-car units on SR standard underframes as one has to improvise some kind of close coupling arrangement between cars 2 and 3 - I use Kean delta plates but these need some butchery to the outer ends of the Bil/Hal driving tralier underframes.  The 8ft 6in trailer pickup bogies also need to be replaced with standard SR 8ft bogies.

 

The 2 Wim and the 1925 Sub need 3D printed underframes as they were not of standard length or construction so for these units one is really buying secondhand Bil/Hals for the motor bogies alone, which raises the second issue - alternative motor bogies.  Sadly the Black Beetle is no longer available  and I was not impressed with the running of the Tenshodo Spuds that I used back in the day, though maybe they have improved since.  The website locosnstuff.com offers 3d printed 35mm motor bogies as ‘Spud’ replacements - does anybody have any experience of these?

 

All of which brings us to the issue of price.  Even with a very modest markup the cost of 3D printing a complete  coach body kit - sides, ends and roof - costs over £100.  Adding an underframe, a motor bogie housing and an interior pushes the cost up by at least 50%.  So a 3D printed Bulleid 2 Hap on an Ebay-sourced Hornby 2 Hal donor chassis is going to work out at £350-400 for a kit of parts, compared to about £260 for the Bachmann ready to run BR standard version.

 

I would be willing to make 3D printed Southern Electric kits available to fellow modellers but is there a demand at these sort of prices?

[Kelly]

Other options for power you could consider are the High Level motor bogies and the Branchlines motor bogies as well. The Replica chassis, whilst designed for 57ft and 64ft BR Mk1 bodies, has been shown to be rather adaptable, with the proprietor Gareth having converted a number of items using it by various means (cutting in half, etc).

 

As for the cost, perhaps the sides could be sourced as etches from Worsley Works and just focus on the ends and roof details and leave the buyer to source their own power method? it shouldn't be too difficult to offer separate parts for this approach (cabs, bogies etc).

[Guest]

On 02/02/2021 at 21:11, Kelly said:

Other options for power you could consider are the High Level motor bogies and the Branchlines motor bogies as well. The Replica chassis, whilst designed for 57ft and 64ft BR Mk1 bodies, has been shown to be rather adaptable, with the proprietor Gareth having converted a number of items using it by various means (cutting in half, etc).

 

As for the cost, perhaps the sides could be sourced as etches from Worsley Works and just focus on the ends and roof details and leave the buyer to source their own power method? it shouldn't be too difficult to offer separate parts for this approach (cabs, bogies etc).

Thanks for the suggestions and I am following up the High Level option, which could avoud the problem of the motor housing intruding into the coach interior.

I have successfully used a mix of etched sides and 3D printed ends on previous projects but I could not get etched sides to bend to match precisely the Bulleid Subs' characteristic profile and high roofline, even after 3D printing a press for the specific purpose.

My concern had been that it would not be possible to 3D print sides thin enough for flush glazing but an experiment with the 1945-type augmentation trailer in my 1925 bull-nosed Sub unit has worked out well (though my first attempts at spray painting have worked out less well!)

Although these coaches were built using traditional methods with a wood and canvas roof, the profile is the same as the 1946 all-steel units and the model has the high roofline but with a plastic strip added at cantrail level and the area above painted grey.

Next on the stocks is a 4111-series all-steel Sub.

[Jack P]

Following with interest!

 

I'm sure cost could be brought down if you could bypass the need to purchase a proprietary mechanism to power the units (as good as Hornby's are).

 

How's the SUB coming along?

[Guest]

On 06/02/2021 at 20:54, Jack P said:

Following with interest!

 

I'm sure cost could be brought down if you could bypass the need to purchase a proprietary mechanism to power the units (as good as Hornby's are).

 

How's the SUB coming along?

CAD artwork for a 4111 type Sub for my own layout is with CW Railways for printing.  I will use this project to identify and shake out any glitches for a possible run of 4621-type units.

[Ceptic]

Hello 34017,

 

   You may remember the sorely missed, master modeller Colin Parks (RIP) producing a series of topics, during which he described his standard setting, exquisite. scratch-built 4mm./1ft. S.Region Emus.

In doing so he amassed a wealth of information. A considerable amount being contributed by members of RMweb.

For anyone with an interest in modelling SR / BR(S) 3rd. rail, Colin's models must be recognised as the best*.

 

Links to the two unit types of interest here, are :-

Tin HAL.

https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/62883-tin-hal/

 

4-SUB.

https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/75582-4-sub-unit-4377-bulleid-2-hap-upgrade-plus-all-matters-third-rail/

 

*Now, if anyone is up to producing kits (or RtR he says, hopefully) to this high standard, I, for one would, certainly, be interested.

 

All the best.

Frank.

 

Edited February 22, 2021 by Ceptic

[chris45lsw]

I would certainly be interested in Bulleid family EMUs becoming available.

 

Chris KT

[cheesysmith]

Question? What size were the motor bogies? Wheelbase and wheel diameter. I would be cheaper to just buy the Hornby motor bogie as a spare and use your own or a modified chassis. Also what size were the trailing bogies? 

[chris45lsw]

In most cases the motor bogies of suburban and semi-fast units were 8ft 9in wb with 3ft 7in wheels, though there were a minority with 9ft wb.  The trailing non-motored bogie of 2-car units was also 8ft 9in wb but they weren't simply motor bogies without motors - they were a different design.  Other carrying bogies were normal SR 8ft 0in wb with 3ft 7in wheels.

 

Chris KT

[cheesysmith]

Check what you are after, the "Bil/Hal from Hornby use 3`3" wheels on a 8`9" bogie. Most EMUs use 3`3" wheels. Trailing bogies used normal coach sized wheel 3`7".

 

Look at the sellers of spares, and getting the motor bogies on their own is cheaper than getting a complete model. If you can live with the 1mm size being wrong on the model, most DMU used 8`6" bogies, more of them about. But they also come with 12mm wheels (3`).

[crompton 33]

Lendons have 2bil bogie frames at £1.99 each.

[Guest]

3D prints just in from Tim at CW Railways, well up to his usual high standard.

 

If all goes well, this will be the first of a family of Bulleid-type Subs, Hals, EPBs and Haps, designed to fit Hornby Bil/Hal donor chassis though, as contributors here have suggested, other options should be possible.

 

The tricky bit is going to be the sides - so thin they are translucent in order to get the glazing to fit as near flush as possibe.  Experience so far with the 1945-type augmentation trailer for my 1925 bull-nosed Sub suggests that the assembled model is reasonably robust; it's getting there without mishap that will be the challenge!

 

[autocoach]

I'll gladly use my Hornby HAL and BIL chassis to have the 1940's-60's 4 subs for a Penge East diorama/module I have on a future plan.

 

My grandparents lived down Mosslea Road from the station almost to the High Street after they were bombed out of another house in Penge. I remember it well from the late 1940's (1948-49) before my father and I emigrated to the US and later visits to family in the Penge and Beckenham area.  My great grandfather was a signalman at Sydenham Hill. 

 

Will be following this topic.

[KeithHC]

On 12/03/2021 at 16:27, 34017Ilfracombe said:

3D prints just in from Tim at CW Railways, well up to his usual high standard.

 

If all goes well, this will be the first of a family of Bulleid-type Subs, Hals, EPBs and Haps, designed to fit Hornby Bil/Hal donor chassis though, as contributors here have suggested, other options should be possible.

 

The tricky bit is going to be the sides - so thin they are translucent in order to get the glazing to fit as near flush as possibe.  Experience so far with the 1945-type augmentation trailer for my 1925 bull-nosed Sub suggests that the assembled model is reasonably robust; it's getting there without mishap that will be the challenge!

 

Oh to have a set of stl’s for all of the above. My printer would not know what has happened. I have often wondered about trying to 3D design the cab from and using it to make the Hal and hap versions but also when the Hornsby short Bulleids come down to the box shifters converting and using there sides.These are as good as the late Colin Parks sides in my opinion. Well done we keep looking at this thread and salivate.

 

Keith formally from the 3rd rail territory 

 

 

[Guest]

On 14/03/2021 at 08:47, KeithHC said:

Oh to have a set of stl’s for all of the above. My printer would not know what has happened. I have often wondered about trying to 3D design the cab from and using it to make the Hal and hap versions but also when the Hornsby short Bulleids come down to the box shifters converting and using there sides.These are as good as the late Colin Parks sides in my opinion. Well done we keep looking at this thread and salivate.

 

Keith formally from the 3rd rail territory 

 

 

This sparked an idea......

As I am not sure I want to set up a business selling these designs as 3D printed kits, with all the hassle of processing orders, managing payments, etc., one option could be to make the STL files available to fellow Southern Electric enthusiasts in return for a donation to the Smile Train charity.

Of course, the recipient would still need to get the files printed and that Sub cost about £500, just for bodies and interiors.

Readers' thoughts please.

[nick_bastable]

2 hours ago, 34017Ilfracombe said:

This sparked an idea......

As I am not sure I want to set up a business selling these designs as 3D printed kits, with all the hassle of processing orders, managing payments, etc., one option could be to make the STL files available to fellow Southern Electric enthusiasts in return for a donation to the Smile Train charity.

Of course, the recipient would still need to get the files printed and that Sub cost about £500, just for bodies and interiors.

Readers' thoughts please.

STL's  please so I can rescale to 2mm

 

Nick B

[KeithHC]

Let us know when available would like to try out the stls in PLA.

 

Keith

[Guest]

Trying to fit the body of 4111 to a pair of Hornby 2 Hal underframes, modified to close-couple at the inner ends, has convinced me that this is NOT the way forward!  The model is almost complete (though not yet fit to be photographed) and it will be OK in the end - it was just a lot of hard work!

 

Instead, it was back to the drawing board to design bespoke underframes, bogies, etc. so as to make up a complete kit, less motors.  I have been working with Tim Evans of CW Railways to set up a joint venture to produce and market these models and - ta-da! - we are today launching Eastleigh Model Rail (eastleighmodelrail.co.uk) with an initial range of post-war all-steel 4 Subs (both the final 'standard' 4621 type and an earlier version with an all-compartment layout and EE339 motors), 'Tin Hal's and the unique 2700.

 

The complete kits are inevitably rather pricey but we offer the option of only buying the bits you need for those who want to do their own thing.  Re-scaling to 2mm may also be an option - contact Tim through the website to discuss possibilities.

 

Bulleid-type EPBs and HAPs are in the pipeline, as are some older EMUs - more anon.

 

Do please have a look at our website at eastleighmodelrail.co.uk and let us know what you think.  Ideas welcome!

 

Stephen Grant

[SteveCornford]

Hi,

Have you any photos of a 4-SUB or Tin Hal body that you have painted and constructed in the flesh yet?

Steve

[autocoach]

Bravo...

 

Unfortunately the 4 SUB's it will have to await my very highly unlikely impending lottery win....

[Eastleigh]

On 06/09/2021 at 16:34, SteveCornford said:

Hi,

Have you any photos of a 4-SUB or Tin Hal body that you have painted and constructed in the flesh yet?

Steve

The prototype Sub was 3D printed in a different material and was also designed around re-using Hornby Bil/Hal underframes.  That didn’t work as well as I hoped so I went for a complete redesign and a 100% bespoke kit instead.  Also Tim (CW Railways) is now using a new translucent material that is something of a game changer in terms of smoothness and crisp detail.

 I have assembled the new kit’s underframes, bogies, etc. and they are running nicely on the test track (the close coupling works smoothly on #2 radius curves whilst being pushed and pulled by motor bogies at both ends) but I have made rather slow progress with the bodies due to various interventions of real life.  I should be able to crack on over the next few weeks and will post progress on the Eastleigh website (eastleighmodelrail.co.uk).

Hopefully the final result will be well worth the wait!

Stephen Grant

 

[Eastleigh]

On 06/09/2021 at 17:23, autocoach said:

Bravo...

 

Unfortunately the 4 SUB's it will have to await my very highly unlikely impending lottery win....

I do appreciate that the kits are far from cheap!

Tim (CW Railways) and I have gone over the costings really carefully and we just cannot do them for any less whilst covering production costs, overheads, etc.  The alternative would be to go in to volume production but that involves a big upfront cost in  the hope that there are enough potential customers out there.  Not a risk we can afford to take!

We have benchmarked our prices against other sources such as Shapeways and we seem to be in the same ball park (note how headline prices on some other sites increase at checkout!).  Some of these other kits are body only which is why we offer the option of parts as well as complete kits.

In the final analysis these models are a niche interest and the prices reflect the costs of very small scale production as well as the parts count for a 4 car unit.

If the Sub is not for you, take a look at our latest offering, a 2 Wim, on eastleighmodelrail.co.uk

Stephen Grant

 

[SteveCornford]

Thanks for the update.

Just to let you know on the EastleighModelRail website, the 2-WIM "what's in the box " section refers to the 2700 2-HAL unit.

 

The 2-WIM really captures the look of the real thing.

Is the 2-WIM unit in your picture produced with the new translucent smooth material?

Would the 2693 2-HAL units have the same smoothness?

Steve

[Eastleigh]

21 hours ago, SteveCornford said:

Thanks for the update.

Just to let you know on the EastleighModelRail website, the 2-WIM "what's in the box " section refers to the 2700 2-HAL unit.

 

The 2-WIM really captures the look of the real thing.

Is the 2-WIM unit in your picture produced with the new translucent smooth material?

Would the 2693 2-HAL units have the same smoothness?

Steve

Firstly, thank you for the alert on the website glitch - that will teach me to check when doing a cut and paste!  Needless to say, what you get in the box is the same in both cases.

I’m glad you like the look of the 2 Wim - in fact I can remember riding on them as a small boy en route to visit my grandmother.  Even as a four year old their Edwardian interiors made an impression, though by then they were very run down and war-weary.

The unit in the picture is a pre-production prototype.  We have since made a few changes to the way parts go together but these do not affect appearance at all.  The model is actually printed in an earlier materiall - the kits themselves are even better!

If you let me have your email address I can send you some videos of the unit on test.

 

[bécasse]

I too found your model of a 2-WIM impressive, significantly helped by the roof colour which certainly matches memories. I did wonder if you had over-provided the designated non-smoking accommodation, which was quite scarce in the early 1950s and which I suspect was limited to the two third-class as built compartments as I think that there may have been a swinging door in the side "corridor" between these two compartments and the five first-class as built ones. I did wonder, too, whether some at least of the smoking compartments might have had the frosted-glass (SMOKING) signs, certainly some of the ex-Brighton SUB sets did.