Colin parks Posted October 14, 2012 Share Posted October 14, 2012 The decision has been made to make a 'Tin' HAL for Newhaven Harbour next. I had pondered making a 4 SUB, but the link to the Seaford/Newhaven area is tenuous, whereas there is picture of an unidentified 2 (Tin) HAL unit en route to Newhaven. The livery will be blue with full yellow ends. I have a good set of plans from Mike King which make up for the lack of photos of these units.The model will, in true 'Southern' tradition, make use of parts from old units. In this case the new model will receive the motor bogie from one of the previously described Bulleid 2 HAPs. This will allow the 2 Bulleid HAPs to run in 4-car formation, with one unit un-motorised (with a dummy power bogie), or the motorised unit to be run on its own. As the layout needs 2-car units to run into the bay platform, the Tin HAL will fill the gap.This time, an experiment with the body shell will be made: 10 thou. plastic sheet for the sides and laminations of 20 and 10 thou. behind. Hopefully this will avoid the need to cut individual glazing for the fixed windows. A second technical challenge this time is that the gutter is much higher up the roof on these units and not at the normal cantrail level. This will need a perfect join between side and roof to look convincing, or it will be a disaster - one of the two outcomes will apply!So that's the theory. The cutting mat has been cleaned tools and materials have been sorted. A modest shopping list has been made. It will be interesting to see how cheap it turns out to be, as a lot of parts etc. are 'in stock', so to speak.Colin Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin parks Posted October 14, 2012 Author Share Posted October 14, 2012 Oh dear, That's a good start. The topic has somehow duplicated itself! Hopefully a moderator will remove one version (and this post too). Sorry, Colin Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
royaloak Posted October 14, 2012 Share Posted October 14, 2012 Does the duplication mean you are doing 2 of them? No, oh well. Looking forward to this one Colin, your models really are amazing. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold griffgriff Posted October 14, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted October 14, 2012 Well that's this winters entertainment sorted. I shall look forward to keeping track of the latest episodes, I really enjoyed the series on the 4 CIG - cracking job on that by the way Well onward and upward. Good luck with the new project Colin. Cheers Griff Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold A Murphy Posted October 14, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted October 14, 2012 Great! Best wishes, Alastair M Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
virginhst539 Posted October 14, 2012 Share Posted October 14, 2012 not a fan of 3rd rail southern region stock but after your last build im looking forward to this! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
SRman Posted October 14, 2012 Share Posted October 14, 2012 I am definitely a fan of 3rd rail Southern Region stock (and Southern Railway too!) and I am also definitely looking forward to this build. The Bulleid profile and high gutter line on these 2HALs, 4SUBs and some 2EPBs and 4EPBs has always had me stumped on how to make a model with these features effectively without gaps or kinks in the line. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adam Posted October 14, 2012 Share Posted October 14, 2012 Hi Colin I'll be interested to see how these techniques work, with what must be some of the most obscure Southern (and properly Southern in execution - these were the ones that look like 2-car steel SUBs?) units. I'm especially interested to see how the use of 10 thou' as the outer skin with supporting laminations works out. I'm fairly sure that some of Geoff Kent's buses may have gone this thin but this is plasticard artistry as much as engineering. The homage to SR/BR(S) traditions is also noted - one of the endless fascinations of the SR is how the same basic power equipment has found itself under the floors of everything from recycled wooden bodies on steel chassis to a Mk3 coach shell. Adam Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
SRman Posted October 15, 2012 Share Posted October 15, 2012 This is the type: This one is the Ayjay Kits version and provides a reasonable basis for the HAL, although some of the details, particularly on the roof, are a bit too heavy. I am absolutely positive that Colin's one will be much finer (with no insult to Ayjay intended). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin parks Posted October 15, 2012 Author Share Posted October 15, 2012 Well that's this winters entertainment sorted. I shall look forward to keeping track of the latest episodes, I really enjoyed the series on the 4 CIG - cracking job on that by the way Well onward and upward. Good luck with the new project Colin. Cheers Griff Thanks griffgriff, I'll be entertainment for me too. If it isn't fun to make something, then what is the point?!! One day you might even see the units running at a show..... All the best, Colin Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin parks Posted October 15, 2012 Author Share Posted October 15, 2012 not a fan of 3rd rail southern region stock but after your last build im looking forward to this! Hi virgin hst539, Not a fan of 3rd rail Southern Region stock? I shall make you one! Seriously though, the Southern 3rd rail network has been pretty successful with most (not all!) units running in excess of thirty years in service and few route closures. All the best, Colin Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin parks Posted October 15, 2012 Author Share Posted October 15, 2012 Hi Colin I'll be interested to see how these techniques work, with what must be some of the most obscure Southern (and properly Southern in execution - these were the ones that look like 2-car ?) units. I'm especially interested to see how the use of 10 thou' as the outer skin with supporting laminations works out. I'm fairly sure that some of Geoff Kent's buses may have gone this thin but this is plasticard artistry as much as engineering. The homage to SR/BR(S) traditions is also noted - one of the endless fascinations of the SR is how the same basic power equipment has found itself under the floors of everything from recycled wooden bodies on steel chassis to a Mk3 coach shell. Adam Hi Adam, Some good points there. Yes, this EMU has the classic Southern features: the distinctive cab front 'face', high gutter (not a good idea on the real thing) and tightly packed seating. The model, as I said in the opening post, will even have a re-cycled motor too! Re. the 10 thou. outer skin for the sides, there will be a test piece of side done to see if assembly can be made a). rigid enough and B). without melting the very thin sheet with solvent trapped in pockets in the laminations. The goal, as I said before, is to have flush glazing without the tears. It will mean that the door drop-lights will need to be packed-out with 10thou. sheet to set them back from the fixed panes. It will be interesting. Re. the high-guttered bodyshell, there are two possible solutions. One would be to make sides of normal height (to just above the door line) and butt-join them to the roof. The second and possibly more elegant solution, would be to produce a carcass of roof and sides with openings for glazing and a 10 thou. sheet with the windows applied as an overlay, with a curved top portion to the profile of the roof This second approach might be neat in theory, but is fraught with difficulty - alignment and the risk of solvent damage being two that come immediately to mind. Solution one means just getting the join betwixt sides and roof seamless, with more control over the construction of the sides/solvent etc. I hope it will be an interesting build. It struck me that I have never made any roofs in our present electric oven. All the previous sctrachbuilt units had roofs 'baked' and formed in the solid-fuel Rayburn at our old house. I'm sure it can be done though in a modern oven. (He says, stroking lucky rabbit's foot.) Colin Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin parks Posted October 15, 2012 Author Share Posted October 15, 2012 This is the type: This one is the Ayjay Kits version and provides a reasonable basis for the HAL, although some of the details, particularly on the roof, are a bit too heavy. I am absolutely positive that Colin's one will be much finer (with no insult to Ayjay intended). Thanks for the picture SRman, The Ajay kit looks like it has the right proportions and would make a good starting point for a Tin HAL. Unlike 4 CIG models available on the market, the AjayTin HAL seems to be accurate re. windows, profile etc.. No crticism of Messrs. Ajay, it's just that I like making things out of plastic sheet! All the best, Colin Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy Y Posted October 15, 2012 Share Posted October 15, 2012 Oh dear, That's a good start. The topic has somehow duplicated itself! Hopefully a moderator will remove one version (and this post too). Sorry, Colin No probs; I've merged the two topics now; hopefully it makes sense! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin parks Posted October 15, 2012 Author Share Posted October 15, 2012 No probs; I've merged the two topics now; hopefully it makes sense! Thanks Andy. For some reason, it is no longer possible for me to edit opening posts. Now, if you could just add a 's' to the word 'de(s)cribe in the the second paragraph of the OP, that would be great. I promise the model will not be such a shambles as my posting is! All the best, Colin Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin parks Posted October 15, 2012 Author Share Posted October 15, 2012 Does the duplication mean you are doing 2 of them? No, oh well. Looking forward to this one Colin, your models really are amazing. Well, royaloak, thanks for your comments! Your quip is not without some precedent. I did make two 2 HAPs, but two Tin HALs might be a little disproportionate for my layout. Colin Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin parks Posted October 15, 2012 Author Share Posted October 15, 2012 Just found the picture of a Tin Hal on the Seaford branch. It is in 'The Southern Electric Story' by Michael H C Baker p. 39. It is a shot of unit 2698, with a pre-war 2 HAL bringing up the rear. The livery is as I intend to paint my model, however, how the yellow stripe for first class accomodation on the trailer car is positioned cannot be seen. I presume that the stripe would be painted on above the doors and be of standard width. It seems that painting an as yet non-existent model is a long way off, but details like this always seem to come back to bite me. Had a good look at the HAL plans last night. The two drawings of Tin HALs that I have are exactly the same with regard to the passenger compartment measurements, windows and luggage compartments. Now there is a thing! I shall have a look at books on Southern units tonight, with a view to expanding the tiny library that I have on the subject - three books. Well two and a half really. You can probably guess which one counts a only a half! Any suggestions for good pictorial books on SR EMUs? Colin Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
BernardTPM Posted October 15, 2012 Share Posted October 15, 2012 Colin, I used to use 10 thou.'" over clear 10 thou." back in the 1970s for coaches and it was not unusual for them to develop the odd 'soft' spot - I had used 5 thou." before that but that would always end up with melted areas. Have you considered the use of cyanoacrylate to attach the outer skin? That usually sticks pretty well to plastic and, as it isn't a solvent, there's no chance of slow drying trapped areas. It should still be easy to stick detail to the top surface, of course. The real things (well, the structurally identical Bulleid 4-EPBs) maximumised interior space - in places I'm sure in the armrest recesses there was only a layer of material and a sheet of steel between me and the outside world! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adam Posted October 15, 2012 Share Posted October 15, 2012 I knew I'd seen a couple of pictures of these somewhere. Courtesy of Robert Carroll's Flickr gallery: http://www.flickr.com/photos/robertcwp/5459193119/in/set-72157603648747922/lightbox/ http://www.flickr.com/photos/robertcwp/4935339209/in/set-72157603648747922/lightbox/ As Bernard suggests, painfully utilitarian. Adam Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin parks Posted October 15, 2012 Author Share Posted October 15, 2012 Colin, I used to use 10 thou.'" over clear 10 thou." back in the 1970s for coaches and it was not unusual for them to develop the odd 'soft' spot - I had used 5 thou." before that but that would always end up with melted areas. Have you considered the use of cyanoacrylate to attach the outer skin? That usually sticks pretty well to plastic and, as it isn't a solvent, there's no chance of slow drying trapped areas. It should still be easy to stick detail to the top surface, of course. The real things (well, the structurally identical Bulleid 4-EPBs) maximumised interior space - in places I'm sure in the armrest recesses there was only a layer of material and a sheet of steel between me and the outside world! Hi Bernard, Thanks for the tip about superglue for attaching the 10 thou. sheet - will have to experiment. It would certainly be feasible if the laminations behind the outer 'skin' were made of smaller pieces. I had thought of drilling holes in the laminations to vent off any trapped solvents. Whichever method is used, the resultant sides will have to be rigid enough to keep their curved profile. Tonight, experiments will begin. Colin Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin parks Posted October 15, 2012 Author Share Posted October 15, 2012 I knew I'd seen a couple of pictures of these somewhere. Courtesy of Robert Carroll's Flickr gallery: http://www.flickr.co...47922/lightbox/ http://www.flickr.co...47922/lightbox/ As Bernard suggests, painfully utilitarian. Adam Hi Adam, I don't believe it. I've been trawling the web (and flickr in particular) for photos of Tin HALs for days!. Now you have found two! Just as well you did, as the photos clearly show the yellow stripe running across the top of the doors. I would have guessed them to run above. Very grateful to you, Colin (Edit: Just noticed the second linked photo is of unit 2698 - ker-ching!) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
5Bel Posted October 15, 2012 Share Posted October 15, 2012 Hi Colin, The very best of luck with your new project. It will be interesting to see how you are going to tackle the rainstrip/ bodyside join. Again good luck. Cheers for now, Ian. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold 4630 Posted October 15, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted October 15, 2012 Just found the picture of a Tin Hal on the Seaford branch. It is in 'The Southern Electric Story' by Michael H C Baker p. 39. Any suggestions for good pictorial books on SR EMUs? Colin In addition to the above, you might wish to try and get hold of some of the following if you don't already have them; Southern Electric Multiple Units 1898-1948 by Colin Marsden Southern Electric Multiple Units 1948-1963 by Colin Marsden Southern Electric album by Alan Williams Southern Electrics - A view from the past by Graham Warterer Southern Electric Album by Michael Welch Southern EMUs In Colour by John C Morgan Southern Electrics - A Pictorial Survey, published by Bradford Barton. Although all the photos are black and white in this book and the two pictures of the 2 HALs on page 34 pre-date your time period I think. When you get round to doing a 4Sub you might find 'The 4 Sub Story' by Bryan Rayner and David Brown published by the Southern Electric Group helpful. Hope the above is of help. Good luck with the 2HAL. I'm looking forward to seeing the progress. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin parks Posted October 15, 2012 Author Share Posted October 15, 2012 Hi Colin, The very best of luck with your new project. It will be interesting to see how you are going to tackle the rainstrip/ bodyside join. Again good luck. Cheers for now, Ian. Thanks Ian, There always has to be the 'risk of disaster' element to my modelling it seeems! Colin Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin parks Posted October 15, 2012 Author Share Posted October 15, 2012 In addition to the above, you might wish to try and get hold of some of the following if you don't already have them; Southern Electric Multiple Units 1898-1948 by Colin Marsden Southern Electric Multiple Units 1948-1963 by Colin Marsden Southern Electric album by Alan Williams Southern Electrics - A view from the past by Graham Warterer Southern Electric Album by Michael Welch Southern EMUs In Colour by John C Morgan Southern Electrics - A Pictorial Survey, published by Bradford Barton. Although all the photos are black and white in this book and the two pictures of the 2 HALs on page 34 pre-date your time period I think. When you get round to doing a 4Sub you might find 'The 4 Sub Story' by Bryan Rayner and David Brown published by the Southern Electric Group helpful. Hope the above is of help. Good luck with the 2HAL. I'm looking forward to seeing the progress. Many thanks 4360 (a 4 SUB number, I believe!) for taking the time and trouble to compile that list I only have one on the list, namely, 'Southern Electric Album' by Michael Welch. That does contain an image of unit 2700 albeit a distant one. I shall certainly have to get some of those books. Any views of the windows in close-up are useful as the drawings have them a little squarer than general views of the HALs suggest. Thanks again, Colin Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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