Lowering Triang 2-6-2T

[Il Grifone]

Since writing the above, I've found another possible German prototype:

 

https://thetransportlibrary.co.uk/index.php?route=product/product&product_id=33543

 

The cab seems more like the Tri-ang model, but the tanks are rather (as in 'completely') different.

[RedgateModels]

On 08/03/2021 at 10:57, Il Grifone said:

. (Motors, valve gear, cylinder assemblies, and pony trucks seem to be hard (read expensive) to obtain.)

 

I've got some spares, pony trucks for definite

[Ravenser]

On 10/03/2021 at 10:30, GoingUnderground said:

You need to watch the Axiom Video on Dublo where one of the interviewees, John Maghan, who was involved in the Meccano Magazine, and seems to have had excellent links in to Meccano/Hornby, says "Please don't call it an N2, it was never intended to be an N2." Apologies if I haven't got the quote word perfect.

 

None of the Triang Transcontinental locos were ever meant to be scale models of a prototype. As Richard Lines has said, again in an Axiom Video, they were generic models intended to resemble the locos used in Triang's primary export markets, the ex-Empire/Commonwealth countries, notably Australia, New Zealand, Canada and South Africa. That's why the road name is usually Transcontinental, but some Australian made models did get the Victorian Railways road name.

The Baltic tank is another generic model intended to give the impression of a loco that you might have seen in continental Europe. What I find surprising is that it was made at all as I never saw it fitting in with the transcontinental passenger and freight rolling stock which to my eyes looked so N. American/Australian.

 

However, one exception to the generic rule is the Sydney Suburban EMU, R.450/451/452, which were made as models of the Sydney "Red Rattlers", down to having the Sydney coat of arms on the sides, and they are recognisable as such, even to the extent of using the prototype's fuse housing on the roof to conceal the OH/TK changeover switch. http://sets.org.au/fleet/index.php?id=sds and http://sets.org.au/library/index.php?id=sputnik
 

 

Pedant alert - it's actually the New South Wales coat of arms . There were still a few vehicles in very sun-bleached condition carrying it in 1979-80

 

And I had understood that "Red Rattlers" was a term for the VR Melbourne suburban units , not the Sydney stock, which the SETS refers to as "Sputnik cars"  - a term I have occasionally heard

 

Also Triang modelled what I would describe as the "twin door" varient , rather than the more common "double door" style - which the SETS site describes as "post-war Tulloch motor cars", though I believe there were also pre-war "twin door" cars

 

This, taken at Hornsby in mid 1979, showing a North Shore line train , shows a typical mix of single deck suburban cars of both types- the NSWGR did not operate them as fixed formation EMUs but treated them like loco-hauled stock and assembled a rake out of suitable loose vehicles. The train on the right is formed with early series double-deckers and may only be 2 car

 

 

[GoingUnderground]

53 minutes ago, Ravenser said:

 

Pedant alert - it's actually the New South Wales coat of arms . There were still a few vehicles in very sun-bleached condition carrying it in 1979-80

 

And I had understood that "Red Rattlers" was a term for the VR Melbourne suburban units , not the Sydney stock, which the SETS refers to as "Sputnik cars"  - a term I have occasionally heard

 

Also Triang modelled what I would describe as the "twin door" varient , rather than the more common "double door" style - which the SETS site describes as "post-war Tulloch motor cars", though I believe there were also pre-war "twin door" cars

 

This, taken at Hornsby in mid 1979, showing a North Shore line train , shows a typical mix of single deck suburban cars of both types- the NSWGR did not operate them as fixed formation EMUs but treated them like loco-hauled stock and assembled a rake out of suitable loose vehicles. The train on the right is formed with early series double-deckers and may only be 2 car

 

You're quite right, it was the NSWR crest. My slip up, as I do refer to them as NSWR myself normally. 

 

I have seen references to the wooden bodied Melbourne suburban stock being called "Red Rattlers", but they're also known as the "Tait" stock, see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tait_(train) and only became known as "Reds" or "Red Rattlers" to distinguish them from the Blue & Yellow liveried "Harris" EMUs that replaced them in the 1950s.

 

But it's my turn to go into pedant mode, as the Sydney Suburban rolling stock was collectively known in Sydney as the "Red Rattlers", see https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=Red+Rattler+trains&docid=607995240468844416&mid=B83CB7E8840317E7B8D8B83CB7E8840317E7B8D8&view=detail&FORM=VIRE. and https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y4tVbc56Q0E both being Australian sources.

 

The Sydney Red Rattlers were built in various batches, and the first motor cars C3101 to 3150 were constructed in the UK in Leeds in the 1930s, by the Leeds Forge Company and shipped out to Sydney where they were assembled. You might find the book Sydney's Suburban Standards - The Leeds Forge Cars C33101 to 3150 by Roy Howarth and Glenn Ryan, ISBN 978-0-646-53011-6 a useful and interesting read. The Leeds cars had manually operated double doors. Additional batches were built in Australia as the electrification was extended and in essence followed the same design as the Leeds Forge cars.

 

The Triang models were based on the additional 4 car sets DM-T-T-DM built by Commonwealth Engineering (Comeng) in Australia in the late 1950s, and were incompatible with the earlier stock having electricslly operated doors. They were identified by the letter "S" and as the word Sputnik was in the news the name stuck to the sets identified by the letter "S". See the SETS website for more details http://www.sets.org.au/library/index.php?id=sputnik#:~:text=SETS Library - The Sputnik Cars Set W6,,signalmen and observant commuters of the trains destination.

 

The Sputnik cars had twin electrically operated doors, and the NSWR crest was a roundel, as used on the Triang models. All in all, the Triang model is easily recognisable as Sputnik Red Rattlers. The cover of the Howarth & Ryan book shows a formation comprising a Leeds DM with double doors, followed by a ComEng Trailer with twin doors and the NSWR logo as a roundel, followed by a Trailer with double doors like the DM, the end DM is obscured.

 

The Sputnik stock had their single deck trailer cars replaced by double deck trailers made by Tulloch in Australia, and the ComEng Sputnik single deck trailers were modified so that they could be used with the older rolling stock which included converting the electrically operated doors to manual operation, hence the mixed formations of double door and twin door stock that I mentioned above. Of course that doesn't mean that twin door cars weren't in use from earlier batches

 

You'll note that the "Red Rattlers" videos include the Sputnik cars.   

 

All the Sydney Suburban rolling stock were painted in the same colours. Initially a terracotta red, known as "Tuscan Red", but that was replaced by a blue & white livery, which in turn was replaced by a darker red, known as "Indian Red". Strangely, Moldex in Australia managed to replicate the two "red" colours as the Triang Railways models were also moulded in two shades of red which approximate to the two colours. But the Indian Red wasn't applied to the 1:1 originals until long after Moldex had ceased production, clairvoyance on Moldex's part?

 

 

But there is a hidden link between the Sydney Red Rattlers and Melbourne at least as far as modelling is concerned. To try to increase their Australian range, the Lines Bros subsidiary Moldex did repaint a set of the Sydney Suburbans in the Blue & Yellow livery of Victorian Railways to try to pass them off as the VR "Harris" stock that replaced the Melbourne "Tait" Reds. Moldex even got as far as including them in their catalogue as R.550, R.551 and R.552 and as a 2 car train set R4X. Unsurprisingly, it fooled no one, and, having been badly received, the idea was quietly abandoned, see Hammond Vol 1 for more details.

 

 

[Ravenser]

1 hour ago, GoingUnderground said:

You're quite right, it was the NSWR crest. My slip up, as I do refer to them as NSWR myself normally. 

 

I have seen references to the wooden bodied Melbourne suburban stock being called "Red Rattlers", but they're also known as the "Tait" stock, see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tait_(train) and only became known as "Reds" or "Red Rattlers" to distinguish them from the Blue & Yellow liveried "Harris" EMUs that replaced them in the 1950s.

 

But it's my turn to go into pedant mode, as the Sydney Suburban rolling stock was collectively known in Sydney as the "Red Rattlers", see https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=Red+Rattler+trains&docid=607995240468844416&mid=B83CB7E8840317E7B8D8B83CB7E8840317E7B8D8&view=detail&FORM=VIRE. and https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y4tVbc56Q0E both being Australian sources.

 

The Sydney Red Rattlers were built in various batches, and the first motor cars C3101 to 3150 were constructed in the UK in Leeds in the 1930s, by the Leeds Forge Company and shipped out to Sydney where they were assembled. You might find the book Sydney's Suburban Standards - The Leeds Forge Cars C33101 to 3150 by Roy Howarth and Glenn Ryan, ISBN 978-0-646-53011-6 a useful and interesting read. The Leeds cars had manually operated double doors. Additional batches were built in Australia as the electrification was extended and in essence followed the same design as the Leeds Forge cars.

 

The Triang models were based on the additional 4 car sets DM-T-T-DM built by Commonwealth Engineering (Comeng) in Australia in the late 1950s, and were incompatible with the earlier stock having electricslly operated doors. They were identified by the letter "S" and as the word Sputnik was in the news the name stuck to the sets identified by the letter "S". See the SETS website for more details http://www.sets.org.au/library/index.php?id=sputnik#:~:text=SETS Library - The Sputnik Cars Set W6,,signalmen and observant commuters of the trains destination.

 

The Sputnik cars had twin electrically operated doors, and the NSWR crest was a roundel, as used on the Triang models. All in all, the Triang model is easily recognisable as Sputnik Red Rattlers. The cover of the Howarth & Ryan book shows a formation comprising a Leeds DM with double doors, followed by a ComEng Trailer with twin doors and the NSWR logo as a roundel, followed by a Trailer with double doors like the DM, the end DM is obscured.

 

The Sputnik stock had their single deck trailer cars replaced by double deck trailers made by Tulloch in Australia, and the ComEng Sputnik single deck trailers were modified so that they could be used with the older rolling stock which included converting the electrically operated doors to manual operation, hence the mixed formations of double door and twin door stock that I mentioned above. Of course that doesn't mean that twin door cars weren't in use from earlier batches

 

You'll note that the "Red Rattlers" videos include the Sputnik cars.   

 

All the Sydney Suburban rolling stock were painted in the same colours. Initially a terracotta red, known as "Tuscan Red", but that was replaced by a blue & white livery, which in turn was replaced by a darker red, known as "Indian Red". Strangely, Moldex in Australia managed to replicate the two "red" colours as the Triang Railways models were also moulded in two shades of red which approximate to the two colours. But the Indian Red wasn't applied to the 1:1 originals until long after Moldex had ceased production, clairvoyance on Moldex's part?

 

 

But there is a hidden link between the Sydney Red Rattlers and Melbourne at least as far as modelling is concerned. To try to increase their Australian range, the Lines Bros subsidiary Moldex did repaint a set of the Sydney Suburbans in the Blue & Yellow livery of Victorian Railways to try to pass them off as the VR "Harris" stock that replaced the Melbourne "Tait" Reds. Moldex even got as far as including them in their catalogue as R.550, R.551 and R.552 and as a 2 car train set R4X. Unsurprisingly, it fooled no one, and, having been badly received, the idea was quietly abandoned, see Hammond Vol 1 for more details.

 

 

 

 

The Leeds Forge built stock cannot have been the original stock , as the first electrified section was from Central to Mortdale in 1926 - SETS note

Quote

The majority of the large Sydney suburban rail network was electrified between 1926 and 1929, with modest additions taking place during the 1932 - 1939 period.

 

The "modest addition" will mostly be the North Shore line, electrified in connection with the opening of the Harbour Bridge in March 1932 - I suspect that the Leeds Forge cars will actually have been additional stock ordered to cover the North Shore line requirement, though not necessarily used on or restricted to the North Shore

 

Having been a schoolboy  commuter for 3 years between Pymble and North Sydney in the early 80s, and used the trains extensively in holidays and at weekends (a Child Day Rover for all government transport in the metropolitan area cost 90 cents as I recall - hydrofoil excluded) - I never heard the term Red Rattler. Admittedly enthusiast material and info was very difficult to find - the concept of an abc volume of stock was unkonwn in Oz - but I'm not aware of it being used in Sydney at the time. And in 1979 the suburban system was a sea of single deckers leavened by double deckers . By 1982-3 double deckers dominated

 

(I also almost completely failed to photograph what I saw every day, because it was mundane and always there - and I've been kicking myself ever since)

 

I also never saw electrically operated doors on single deckers . All double deckers, or almost all had electric sliding doors  - I think the first batch of double deck trailers , with smooth red sides and no bottom section to the top deck windows might have had manually operated doors. But single deckers, no.

 

As far as twin door stock, which was much rarer - on one occasion I attempted to get to the bottom of this in the absence of printed gen by looking at the builder's plates on a formation which had terminated in the dead-end platform at Gordon one evening . (This being the way I understood proper enthusiasts did it when faced with something like the Bishops Castle or K&ESR between the wars)  I do remember that there was a twin door vehicle in the formation carrying builder's plates for State Dockyard, Newcastle 1928 - but the rest of the rake (double door) was a scatter of dates from the late 20s into the 30s and possibly the 50s ,  so I abandoned the idea ofd twin door stock being an early form , and a clear chronological sequence at that point

 

As for liveries - there were still a scattering of paler pinkish cars which the NSW coat of arms in 1979 . The photo is quite representative in that respect. However...

 

My best source is Under the Wires : Sydney Suburban Electrics Pt 1 , which is a colour photo album . This shows pre 1972 red as a little lighter and brighter shade than the post 1976 SRA era red, which I would class as LMS maroon , or even darker . Agreed there is one shot of a train coming off the Harbour Bridge in 1966 which seems quite darkish red. But the authors do refer in one caption to :

 

Quote

an interesting  comparison of liveries, the deeper shade of tuscan as introduced from November of 1976, a clean example of the previous blue and white scheme, and a faded version of the earlier tuscan livery. 

 

The blue and white dates from the New South Wales Public Transport Commission era (1972-6). Yellow lining above and below the windows was abandoned from 1951, but they do not refer to any change of shade between Tuscan/Indian  red in the NSWGR era up to 1972 . There's no doubt that after a decade of Australian sunshine the older red could be pretty badly faded

 

I suspect the two shades of Moldex plastic in fact equate to new and faded paintwork, assuming they aren't simply explained by using a batch of plastic formulated for something else  . The post 1976 tuscan was a much darker shade than even the darker of Moldex's plastics

[Il Grifone]

6 hours ago, RedgateModels said:

 

I've got some spares, pony trucks for definite

 

Thanks.

I'm stuck in Sardinia at the moment (thanks to Covid and Brexit) and away from my collection.

I think I need a set of fluted valve gear for the green one. I'm need sure the black one is worth the trouble. She's a bit beat up, poor thing (not my fault; she came like that - as part of a job lot IIRC).

[GoingUnderground]

1 hour ago, Ravenser said:

The Leeds Forge built stock cannot have been the original stock , as the first electrified section was from Central to Mortdale in 1926 - SETS note

 

The "modest addition" will mostly be the North Shore line, electrified in connection with the opening of the Harbour Bridge in March 1932 - I suspect that the Leeds Forge cars will actually have been additional stock ordered to cover the North Shore line requirement, though not necessarily used on or restricted to the North Shore

 

Having been a schoolboy  commuter for 3 years between Pymble and North Sydney in the early 80s, and used the trains extensively in holidays and at weekends (a Child Day Rover for all government transport in the metropolitan area cost 90 cents as I recall - hydrofoil excluded) - I never heard the term Red Rattler. Admittedly enthusiast material and info was very difficult to find - the concept of an abc volume of stock was unkonwn in Oz - but I'm not aware of it being used in Sydney at the time. And in 1979 the suburban system was a sea of single deckers leavened by double deckers . By 1982-3 double deckers dominated

 

(I also almost completely failed to photograph what I saw every day, because it was mundane and always there - and I've been kicking myself ever since)

 

I also never saw electrically operated doors on single deckers . All double deckers, or almost all had electric sliding doors  - I think the first batch of double deck trailers , with smooth red sides and no bottom section to the top deck windows might have had manually operated doors. But single deckers, no.

 

As far as twin door stock, which was much rarer - on one occasion I attempted to get to the bottom of this in the absence of printed gen by looking at the builder's plates on a formation which had terminated in the dead-end platform at Gordon one evening . (This being the way I understood proper enthusiasts did it when faced with something like the Bishops Castle or K&ESR between the wars)  I do remember that there was a twin door vehicle in the formation carrying builder's plates for State Dockyard, Newcastle 1928 - but the rest of the rake (double door) was a scatter of dates from the late 20s into the 30s and possibly the 50s ,  so I abandoned the idea ofd twin door stock being an early form , and a clear chronological sequence at that point

 

As for liveries - there were still a scattering of paler pinkish cars which the NSW coat of arms in 1979 . The photo is quite representative in that respect. However...

 

My best source is Under the Wires : Sydney Suburban Electrics Pt 1 , which is a colour photo album . This shows pre 1972 red as a little lighter and brighter shade than the post 1976 SRA era red, which I would class as LMS maroon , or even darker . Agreed there is one shot of a train coming off the Harbour Bridge in 1966 which seems quite darkish red. But the authors do refer in one caption to :

 

The blue and white dates from the New South Wales Public Transport Commission era (1972-6). Yellow lining above and below the windows was abandoned from 1951, but they do not refer to any change of shade between Tuscan/Indian  red in the NSWGR era up to 1972 . There's no doubt that after a decade of Australian sunshine the older red could be pretty badly faded

 

I suspect the two shades of Moldex plastic in fact equate to new and faded paintwork, assuming they aren't simply explained by using a batch of plastic formulated for something else  . The post 1976 tuscan was a much darker shade than even the darker of Moldex's plastics

The NSW Railways dept placed the order with Leeds Forge in late 1923, see The Commonwealth Engineer 1 December 1923 pp 175-178. The cars would have been delivered, erected and put into service as steam loco hauled stock by mid 1925, source: The Commonwealth Engineer 1 july 1925 pp 440-442. Messrs Howarth & Ryan, reproduce parts of "The Sun" newspaper from 2 Feb 1926 reporting on the first trials that day of the Electric Stock on the Illawarra line and quote Leeds Forge car C3101 and Bradfield wooden bodied Driving Trailer D4001 as being the two cars used. They then go on to produce further extracts from "The Sun" date 1 March 1926  of the first day in operation of the electrified Illawarra line adding that Leeds cars C3101 and C3102 were used. I have no idea if other parts of the Sydney network were already electrified by March 1926, or whether Central to Mortdale count as part of the Illawarra line. But your assumption that they could only have been for the North Shore  route must be wrong if the 1920s dates in Howarth & Ryan's book are correct, dates that fit in with what's said on the SETS website.

 

There is a very simple explanation to why you never saw electric twin doors on single deckers. you were too young to have seen them if you were a schoolboy commuter in the 1980s. To quote the SETS website: "In February 1964, the local Sydney engineering firm of Tulloch Limited delivered the first of 120 double-decker trailer cars for use in Sydney. These ingenious cars, constructed of aluminium on a steel underframe and riding on bogies featuring air bag suspension, were actually lighter than the steel trailer cars then in service. The first 40 of these double-deckers, T4801 to T4840, replaced the 40 trailer cars (T4701 to T4740) in the Sputnik Sets.....The 40 single-deck Sputnik trailers so displaced were taken into the Electric Car Workshops and given a medium overhaul, at the same time having their power operated door equipment disconnected and door locks fitted, to allow manual door operation. Similarly their electrical lighting and control voltage and jumper coupling receptacles were changed, to allow them to operate with the older cars. As converted, they were given numbers 50 higher than original ie. T4701 became T4751 and T4740 became T4790." That was around 16 years before you became a schoolboy commuter.

 

The colour of the darker plastic used by Moldex can only be a fluke as they'd shut up shop long before the Indian Red was applied, and must be attributable to different batches of plastic or the availablility of colours from the plastic suppliers. Howarth & Ryan refer to Tuscan Red as being the colour prior to the PTC mandarin blue & off-white livery, and Indian Red as being the colour applied after the PTE.  It may be a false assumption on my part, but I've worked on the basis that Tuscan would be a more orange colour than indian. Logic says that there must have been some difference in shade between the two for there to have been two names, unless it was the same shade but from a different supplier who used a different name for it. I'd always be very cagey about judging colours from published photos, add in bleaching from the Oz sun and trying to get the colours right would be a nightmare.

 

I was also a schoolboy commuter on EMU stock, in my case on the London Underground, possibly up to 20 years earlier than you, and like you I bitterly regret not photgraphing everything that I saw around me. But in those days decent colour cameras and film were expensive and you needed a light meter to get the exposure right, more than a schoolboy like me could affford.

 

I was in Sydney on a short business trip in 1989, but never got to see the Suburban stock other than in passing when I was in the Circular Quay area if i remember correctly, and i think it was mostly unpainted Aluminium by then. We were working in Parramatta, but the company had hired a car for us so we drove there and back from our hotel in Sydney centre - another opportunty lost. 

[Ravenser]

53 minutes ago, GoingUnderground said:

The NSW Railways dept placed the order with Leeds Forge in late 1923, see The Commonwealth Engineer 1 December 1923 pp 175-178. The cars would have been delivered, erected and put into service as steam loco hauled stock by mid 1925, source: The Commonwealth Engineer 1 july 1925 pp 440-442. Messrs Howarth & Ryan, reproduce parts of "The Sun" newspaper from 2 Feb 1926 reporting on the first trials that day of the Electric Stock on the Illawarra line and quote Leeds Forge car C3101 and Bradfield wooden bodied Driving Trailer D4001 as being the two cars used. They then go on to produce further extracts from "The Sun" date 1 March 1926  of the first day in operation of the electrified Illawarra line adding that Leeds cars C3101 and C3102 were used. I have no idea if other parts of the Sydney network were already electrified by March 1926, or whether Central to Mortdale count as part of the Illawarra line. But your assumption that they could only have been for the North Shore  route must be wrong if the 1920s dates in Howarth & Ryan's book are correct, dates that fit in with what's said on the SETS website.

 

There is a very simple explanation to why you never saw electric twin doors on single deckers. you were too young to have seen them if you were a schoolboy commuter in the 1980s. To quote the SETS website: "In February 1964, the local Sydney engineering firm of Tulloch Limited delivered the first of 120 double-decker trailer cars for use in Sydney. These ingenious cars, constructed of aluminium on a steel underframe and riding on bogies featuring air bag suspension, were actually lighter than the steel trailer cars then in service. The first 40 of these double-deckers, T4801 to T4840, replaced the 40 trailer cars (T4701 to T4740) in the Sputnik Sets.....The 40 single-deck Sputnik trailers so displaced were taken into the Electric Car Workshops and given a medium overhaul, at the same time having their power operated door equipment disconnected and door locks fitted, to allow manual door operation. Similarly their electrical lighting and control voltage and jumper coupling receptacles were changed, to allow them to operate with the older cars. As converted, they were given numbers 50 higher than original ie. T4701 became T4751 and T4740 became T4790." That was around 16 years before you became a schoolboy commuter.

 

The colour of the darker plastic used by Moldex can only be a fluke as they'd shut up shop long before the Indian Red was applied, and must be attributable to different batches of plastic or the availablility of colours from the plastic suppliers. Howarth & Ryan refer to Tuscan Red as being the colour prior to the PTC mandarin blue & off-white livery, and Indian Red as being the colour applied after the PTE.  It may be a false assumption on my part, but I've worked on the basis that Tuscan would be a more orange colour than indian. Logic says that there must have been some difference in shade between the two for there to have been two names, unless it was the same shade but from a different supplier who used a different name for it. I'd always be very cagey about judging colours from published photos, add in bleaching from the Oz sun and trying to get the colours right would be a nightmare.

 

I was also a schoolboy commuter on EMU stock, in my case on the London Underground, possibly up to 20 years earlier than you, and like you I bitterly regret not photgraphing everything that I saw around me. But in those days decent colour cameras and film were expensive and you needed a light meter to get the exposure right, more than a schoolboy like me could affford.

 

I was in Sydney on a short business trip in 1989, but never got to see the Suburban stock other than in passing when I was in the Circular Quay area if i remember correctly, and i think it was mostly unpainted Aluminium by then. We were working in Parramatta, but the company had hired a car for us so we drove there and back from our hotel in Sydney centre - another opportunty lost. 

 

 

I can only contrast your comments above with your earlier qotation:

 

Quote

The Sydney Red Rattlers were built in various batches, and the first motor cars C3101 to 3150 were constructed in the UK in Leeds in the 1930s, by the Leeds Forge Company and shipped out to Sydney where they were assembled.

 

If they were delivered in 1925 they were not constructed in the 1930s as the initial posting suggested. I'm not quite sure what additional Sydney suburban lines were electrified between 1932 and 1939 other than the North Shore line (and the details of that are pretty familiar as it was my local line) - a few bits and pieces, probably - but 50 motor cars wouldn't go very far to meet Sydney's needs. If delivered in 1925 they probably represent the needs of the initial electrification  on the Illawara line

 

Sydney Central to Mortdale is most of the suburban section of the Illawara line. By 1979 electrification had been extended as far as Waterfall, and it was electrified to Wollongong a few years later - interurban rathere tnhan suburban in NSWGR terms (Brighton and Portsmouth would be interurban ; Coulsdon and Woking suburban, to take a British parallel)

 

"Tuscan" and "Indian" red seem to be used interchangeably by various sources for NSWGR red-brown , and there is no real distinction between them. Both Aucision and Eureka offer their NSWGR diesels as "Indian" - there is no earlier shade.  What is clear to me , from photographs and from direct observation, is that the actual colour used on painted suburban stock after 1976 was a dark maroon, at least as dark as BR maroon, and a little darker and redder than the brown-red used on locomotives

 

Sydney suburban stock is plainly a large and very complicated subject, and I'm not sure it's been fully documented in print: certainly print sources have always been difficult to find and patchy.

 

A monograph "Sydney Suburban Steam Railways " , William A Bayley - no date probably late 70s reports:

 

Quote

With electrification in sight, many carriages were lengthened and widened and given three side doors, gaining a little extra weight in the process to become electric trailer cars..... but the new "Bradfield" steel cars were heavier and ran in sets of five

 

the problems here are that I'm struggling to imagine a reconstruction of steam suburban "cowboy cars" as described, and the SETS site describes the Bradfield cars as wooden . They have 3 doors and were certainly used in steam service without motors prior to eleectrification  (I've seen that in several sources), and apparently the Leeds Forge cars were as well. I wonder the earlier source might be confused and in fact be describing wooden 3 door Bradfield cars and steel Leeds Forge cars in steam service.

 

But prima facie we have:

 

- Reconstructed wooden steam suburban stock

- Wooden Bradfield cars, built in the early 20s, used as steam stock , at least some later motored. 3 doors

- Steel Leeds Forge cars from 1925. Double doors at each end. Sometimes described as "standard"

- Further "standard" cars in some volume from several builders mostly late 20s but up to 1939-40

- Some pre war "twin door" vehicles

- Post  war Tulloch built "Sputnik" twin door stock

- Post war double door stock  (for completion of the City Circle by 1958-9)

 

Before we get 

 

- First double deckers (flat sided, painted, trailers only, manual doors?) late 1960s (replacing 1 + 2 above?) 

- Corregated stainless steel double deckers , power doors, dome ends - 1970s

- As above with flat ends, ~("Goninan stock") from 1980-1 onwards

 

And that may not be the full detail...

- 

 

 

[GoingUnderground]

8 hours ago, Ravenser said:

I can only contrast your comments above with your earlier qotation:

 

If they were delivered in 1925 they were not constructed in the 1930s as the initial posting suggested. I'm not quite sure what additional Sydney suburban lines were electrified between 1932 and 1939 other than the North Shore line (and the details of that are pretty familiar as it was my local line) - a few bits and pieces, probably - but 50 motor cars wouldn't go very far to meet Sydney's needs. If delivered in 1925 they probably represent the needs of the initial electrification  on the Illawara line

 

Sydney Central to Mortdale is most of the suburban section of the Illawara line. By 1979 electrification had been extended as far as Waterfall, and it was electrified to Wollongong a few years later - interurban rathere tnhan suburban in NSWGR terms (Brighton and Portsmouth would be interurban ; Coulsdon and Woking suburban, to take a British parallel)

 

"Tuscan" and "Indian" red seem to be used interchangeably by various sources for NSWGR red-brown , and there is no real distinction between them. Both Aucision and Eureka offer their NSWGR diesels as "Indian" - there is no earlier shade.  What is clear to me , from photographs and from direct observation, is that the actual colour used on painted suburban stock after 1976 was a dark maroon, at least as dark as BR maroon, and a little darker and redder than the brown-red used on locomotives

 

Sydney suburban stock is plainly a large and very complicated subject, and I'm not sure it's been fully documented in print: certainly print sources have always been difficult to find and patchy.

 

A monograph "Sydney Suburban Steam Railways " , William A Bayley - no date probably late 70s reports:

 

 

the problems here are that I'm struggling to imagine a reconstruction of steam suburban "cowboy cars" as described, and the SETS site describes the Bradfield cars as wooden . They have 3 doors and were certainly used in steam service without motors prior to eleectrification  (I've seen that in several sources), and apparently the Leeds Forge cars were as well. I wonder the earlier source might be confused and in fact be describing wooden 3 door Bradfield cars and steel Leeds Forge cars in steam service.

 

But prima facie we have:

 

- Reconstructed wooden steam suburban stock

- Wooden Bradfield cars, built in the early 20s, used as steam stock , at least some later motored. 3 doors

- Steel Leeds Forge cars from 1925. Double doors at each end. Sometimes described as "standard"

- Further "standard" cars in some volume from several builders mostly late 20s but up to 1939-40

- Some pre war "twin door" vehicles

- Post  war Tulloch built "Sputnik" twin door stock

- Post war double door stock  (for completion of the City Circle by 1958-9)

 

Before we get 

 

- First double deckers (flat sided, painted, trailers only, manual doors?) late 1960s (replacing 1 + 2 above?) 

- Corregated stainless steel double deckers , power doors, dome ends - 1970s

- As above with flat ends, ~("Goninan stock") from 1980-1 onwards

 

And that may not be the full detail...

Thank you for pointing out that I should have said 1920s not 1930s, mea culpa - one of the dangers of working from memory and not checking back with sources, in this case Howarth & Ryan's book.

 

The only other observation that I have on your succinct summary is that SETS say that the 10 8 car (DM-T-T-DM+DM-T-T-DM) single deck Sputnik sets were built by ComEng, not Tulloch. Tulloch built the 40 double deck trailer cars that displaced the 40 original single deck ComEng Sputnik trailers in 1964. These first 40 double deck cars had electric doors to match the powered doors on the Sputnik motor cars. Later double deck trailers would have had manual doors because, as SETS points out, they would have been running with the older manual doored motor and trailer cars.

 

But again thank you for picking up my sloppy postings. I'm sure that between us we've bored everyone silly, not to mention going waaaaaaay off topic.

 

The Triang Sydney Suburbans do interest me greatly just because they were the only catenary powered EMU made by Rovex, (Hammond says that moulds were made at Margate and then shipped out to Moldex), and sold under the Triang Railways brand, but were only sold in Australia, never in the UK. If there was a comprehensive history of the Sydney Suburban and Interurban stock then I'd happily buy it, even if it had to come all the way from Oz.

Edited March 12, 2021 by GoingUnderground

[Gilwell Park]

Reverting to the Triang 2-6-2T. Two pictures, one shows a BR class 3 fitted with Romford Wheels & Hornby Dublo valve gear. This raises the body & allows the front buffer beam & platform to be shortened & refitted under the smoke box giving a much improved appearance. The other is the Continental body fitted on a HD 2-8-0 chassis. The chimney & domes have been shortened & smoke deflectors fitted. I called it a 141TB but it does not match exactly any French 141T.

[Ravenser]

11 hours ago, GoingUnderground said:

The only other observation that I have on your succinct summary is that SETS say that the 10 8 car (DM-T-T-DM+DM-T-T-DM) single deck Sputnik sets were built by ComEng, not Tulloch. Tulloch built the 40 double deck trailer cars that displaced the 40 original single deck ComEng Sputnik trailers in 1964. 

 

.....

If there was a comprehensive history of the Sydney Suburban and Interurban stock then I'd happily buy it, even if it had to come all the way from Oz.

 

 

The SETS site describes all its post-war motored cars as "1950 Post War Tulloch motor cars" in the heading. This isn't to dispute that Commonwealth Engineering also built some

 

As you say, a proper detailed account of Sydney's 1500V suburban stock over the last century would be great to have. I fear it hasn't actually been written - compare how many books we have on Southern Electrics (I think the interurbans would be best left to a separate volume - different lines and a different lineage. You may be interested to know that the metro train which appears in the film The Matrix is in fact a kit-bashed single decker interurban car)

 

I'll just leave this here...  Messing Up Sydney Harbour

 

And now everyone can get back to butchering Praire tanks

 

 

[Wolseley]

On 12/03/2021 at 03:02, GoingUnderground said:

I have seen references to the wooden bodied Melbourne suburban stock being called "Red Rattlers", but they're also known as the "Tait" stock, see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tait_(train) and only became known as "Reds" or "Red Rattlers" to distinguish them from the Blue & Yellow liveried "Harris" EMUs that replaced them in the 1950s.

 

The term “Red Rattlers” as applied to the Sydney trains, as I recall, originated in the late 1960s or maybe early 1970s, when a tabloid newspaper, the Daily Telecrap Telegraph, began a campaign to upgrade the Sydney railway system.  The name stuck and you still hear people use it today.

 

Indian red and Tuscan red are two very similar, but different, colours,  Tuscan (more properly called Venetian red) was in use on the NSW railways from at least around 1920.  Tuscan and russet livery was the first livery applied to the electric carriages, the russet being applied to the panels between the area of the sides between the lines immediately above and below the windows, with yellow or gold lining on the panels. From around 1939, Indian red replaced Tuscan, the yellow/gold lining was omitted and broad horizontal yellow bands were painted above and below the windows.  Initially the lines were also painted on the doors, but later they were not.

 

By 1957, the colour reverted to Tuscan red and the yellow bands were omitted.  To show how often the carriages were repainted, by the late 1960s there was still one of the 1927 steel cars running around with yellow pads on it (C3102 I think it might have been - I saw it pass through Chatswood station in that guise a few times).

 

Roofs were supposedly silver, but I do recall seeing some wooden cars with roofs painted a mustard yellow colour.

 

 

On 12/03/2021 at 05:06, Ravenser said:

The "modest addition" will mostly be the North Shore line, electrified in connection with the opening of the Harbour Bridge in March 1932

 

That's the first time I've heard the Sydney Harbour Bridge referred to as a modest addition......

 

 

On 12/03/2021 at 12:10, Ravenser said:

But prima facie we have:

 

- Reconstructed wooden steam suburban stock

- Wooden Bradfield cars, built in the early 20s, used as steam stock , at least some later motored. 3 doors

- Steel Leeds Forge cars from 1925. Double doors at each end. Sometimes described as "standard"

- Further "standard" cars in some volume from several builders mostly late 20s but up to 1939-40

- Some pre war "twin door" vehicles

- Post  war Tulloch built "Sputnik" twin door stock

- Post war double door stock  (for completion of the City Circle by 1958-9)

 

Before we get 

 

- First double deckers (flat sided, painted, trailers only, manual doors?) late 1960s (replacing 1 + 2 above?) 

- Corregated stainless steel double deckers , power doors, dome ends - 1970s

- As above with flat ends, ~("Goninan stock") from 1980-1 onwards

 

And that may not be the full detail...

 

The reconstructed wooden steam suburban stock (mostly trailer cars, but there were some driving trailers as well) were converted from end platform suburban carriages, but only those built after 1910 were converted, as they had steel underframes.  Conversion of earlier carriages was considered, but was ruled out as they had wooden underframes which may not have withstood the additional pressure put on them in use on an intensive electric service with its rapid acceleration and deceleration.

 

The EBA and EBB Wooden cars which are often referred to as “Bradfield” cars, were built in 1920-21, and initially used as steam hauled stock until 1926 when the first stages of electrification were brought into operation.  Ten or so were converted to driving trailers, but the rest were all given driving controls and motors.  They had three single doors and one pair of double doors on each side.  They got the name “Bradfield" from the person most associated with the electrification, Dr J J C Bradfield, although I’m pretty sure that, although Bradfield designed the new suburban railway system (and, in conjunction with Dorman Long & Co, the Sydney Harbour Bridge) the carriages were designed by E E Lucy, a former GWR man who was CME of the NSW railways at the time.

 

The steel Leeds Forge cars followed in 1925 (some also being used briefly in steam hauled service). Double doors at each end of the saloon portion. These were followed in 1926-29 by the Government Dockyard at Walsh Island, Newcastle, and the Clyde Engineering Co, at Granville in Western Sydney.

 

The Clyde Engineering Co built more of these cars in 1937 to a modified design with slightly lower windows and more roof ventilators.

 

1940 saw a further batch similar to the 1937 cars, this time from Tulloch’s Phoenix Iron Works.These cars had one less window on the side compared to the earlier cars, and were the first to have a fixed portion of bodywork separating each pair of sliding doors.  Further cars to the same basic design were built by Tulloch’s in 1952—53 and one set comprised solely of these cars, F39, was selected as a trial for the automatic door equipment..

 

Between 1956 and 1960, 40 power cars and 40 trailer cars were built by Commonwealth Engineering.  They were similar to the Tulloch cars, but had motors on all four bogies and had power operated doors.  The most notable difference appearance wise was the lack of visible rivets on the bodywork.  They were coded as S sets and earned the nickname of “Sputniks” from the USSR spacecraft that entered service around the same time, although who was responsible for first calling them that I do not know.

 

When the original double deck trailers entered service, they were put to use in the S sets - initially one per train until there were enough double deckers to replace all 40 “Sputnik” trailers.  The replaced trailers were converted to manual door use and were used to replace some of the old converted wooden carriages that were well past their use by date.

[cypherman]

19 hours ago, Gilwell Park said:

Reverting to the Triang 2-6-2T. Two pictures, one shows a BR class 3 fitted with Romford Wheels & Hornby Dublo valve gear. This raises the body & allows the front buffer beam & platform to be shortened & refitted under the smoke box giving a much improved appearance. The other is the Continental body fitted on a HD 2-8-0 chassis. The chimney & domes have been shortened & smoke deflectors fitted. I called it a 141TB but it does not match exactly any French 141T.

Hi all,

Do you think that the H/D 2-6-4 chassis could be adapted to fit in to this body as a 2-6-2.?. Perhaps an idea for another project.

[Wolseley]

1 hour ago, cypherman said:

Hi all,

Do you think that the H/D 2-6-4 chassis could be adapted to fit in to this body as a 2-6-2.?. Perhaps an idea for another project.

 

I suspect that the motor would be too wide for it to fit, but I don't have a Tri-ang body to try it out.

 

Perhaps it hould be easier to chop a bit off a Dublo body and chassis to get a 2-6-2T.  I do have a spare Dublo body, and a rolling chassis for a 2-6-4T, but I have too many things on the go at the minute to try it out.

 

 

 

Edited March 13, 2021 by Wolseley
correcting typo

[locomad2]

4 hours ago, cypherman said:

Hi all,

Do you think that the H/D 2-6-4 chassis could be adapted to fit in to this body as a 2-6-2.?. Perhaps an idea for another project.

 

 

Prehaps start a new thread "swoping bodies and chassis"

 

2-6-4T HD body will fit on a 2-6-2T looks quite good too, small amount of chassis cut off front. Other way round works too again some chassis chip off at front and remove the inner coal box.

 

However best swop is a Fowler class 4 on a 2-6-4T, Wills did a kit but the Hornby one fits well and looks good too, remove the cab inner bits, and small amount on front chassis. Popular conversation with those into grouping period looks nice in LMS colours, wrenn did one using BR class 4 body

 

Also it fits on a 2-6-2T, need to remove the smoke unit again good looking locomotive.

 

I've seen such swoops at toy fairs and also on Ebay either sellers don't know what they have, or just trying to pass off fakes. There seems to be surplus of bodies with chassis stripped for spares, quiet often the armature or X04 motor missing buyer beware 

[Gilwell Park]

The HD 2-6-4t chassis will fit the Triang 2-6-2t body but it is a squeeze & the magnet will be in the bunker. I fitted mine with correct size Romfords which lowered the body but caused problems with pick ups. I went back to the Triang chassis & moved the wheels & cylinder block from the 2-6-4.

[locomad2]

On 13/03/2021 at 13:25, Wolseley said:

 

 

 

Perhaps it hould be easier to chop a bit off a Dublo body and chassis to get a 2-6-2T.  I do have a spare Dublo body, and a rolling chassis for a 2-6-4T, but I have too many things on the go at the minute to try it out.

 

 

 

 

 

Chop bit off Dublo body, stick it on a 2-6-2T, just doing that, real "Triang-Hornby-Dublo," even got smoke. 

 

 

Just happen to have a scrap 2-6-4T body someone chopped back quarter off. It fits, it works, need to rebuild the back coal bunker and clean it up a bit. Sandblast, repaint etc.  Prehaps replace the cylinders and use dublo valve gear. It's a class 3/4 2-6-2T THD and it can now pull 6 HD coaches

 

[David_Belcher]

On 12/03/2021 at 17:05, Gilwell Park said:

Reverting to the Triang 2-6-2T. Two pictures, one shows a BR class 3 fitted with Romford Wheels & Hornby Dublo valve gear. This raises the body & allows the front buffer beam & platform to be shortened & refitted under the smoke box giving a much improved appearance. The other is the Continental body fitted on a HD 2-8-0 chassis. The chimney & domes have been shortened & smoke deflectors fitted. I called it a 141TB but it does not match exactly any French 141T.

Massive improvement on the original. Another option might be the cylinders/VG off Hornby's Fowler 2-6-4T? I fitted Fowler tank gear to the Ivatt Mogul and it looks better for it.

 

David

[DanInHisDen]

On 11/03/2021 at 16:02, GoingUnderground said:

You're quite right, it was the NSWR crest. My slip up, as I do refer to them as NSWR myself normally. 

 

I have seen references to the wooden bodied Melbourne suburban stock being called "Red Rattlers", but they're also known as the "Tait" stock, see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tait_(train) and only became known as "Reds" or "Red Rattlers" to distinguish them from the Blue & Yellow liveried "Harris" EMUs that replaced them in the 1950s.

 

But it's my turn to go into pedant mode, as the Sydney Suburban rolling stock was collectively known in Sydney as the "Red Rattlers", see https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=Red+Rattler+trains&docid=607995240468844416&mid=B83CB7E8840317E7B8D8B83CB7E8840317E7B8D8&view=detail&FORM=VIRE. and https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y4tVbc56Q0E both being Australian sources.

 

The Sydney Red Rattlers were built in various batches, and the first motor cars C3101 to 3150 were constructed in the UK in Leeds in the 1930s, by the Leeds Forge Company and shipped out to Sydney where they were assembled. You might find the book Sydney's Suburban Standards - The Leeds Forge Cars C33101 to 3150 by Roy Howarth and Glenn Ryan, ISBN 978-0-646-53011-6 a useful and interesting read. The Leeds cars had manually operated double doors. Additional batches were built in Australia as the electrification was extended and in essence followed the same design as the Leeds Forge cars.

 

The Triang models were based on the additional 4 car sets DM-T-T-DM built by Commonwealth Engineering (Comeng) in Australia in the late 1950s, and were incompatible with the earlier stock having electricslly operated doors. They were identified by the letter "S" and as the word Sputnik was in the news the name stuck to the sets identified by the letter "S". See the SETS website for more details http://www.sets.org.au/library/index.php?id=sputnik#:~:text=SETS Library - The Sputnik Cars Set W6,,signalmen and observant commuters of the trains destination.

 

The Sputnik cars had twin electrically operated doors, and the NSWR crest was a roundel, as used on the Triang models. All in all, the Triang model is easily recognisable as Sputnik Red Rattlers. The cover of the Howarth & Ryan book shows a formation comprising a Leeds DM with double doors, followed by a ComEng Trailer with twin doors and the NSWR logo as a roundel, followed by a Trailer with double doors like the DM, the end DM is obscured.

 

The Sputnik stock had their single deck trailer cars replaced by double deck trailers made by Tulloch in Australia, and the ComEng Sputnik single deck trailers were modified so that they could be used with the older rolling stock which included converting the electrically operated doors to manual operation, hence the mixed formations of double door and twin door stock that I mentioned above. Of course that doesn't mean that twin door cars weren't in use from earlier batches

 

You'll note that the "Red Rattlers" videos include the Sputnik cars.   

 

All the Sydney Suburban rolling stock were painted in the same colours. Initially a terracotta red, known as "Tuscan Red", but that was replaced by a blue & white livery, which in turn was replaced by a darker red, known as "Indian Red". Strangely, Moldex in Australia managed to replicate the two "red" colours as the Triang Railways models were also moulded in two shades of red which approximate to the two colours. But the Indian Red wasn't applied to the 1:1 originals until long after Moldex had ceased production, clairvoyance on Moldex's part?

 

 

But there is a hidden link between the Sydney Red Rattlers and Melbourne at least as far as modelling is concerned. To try to increase their Australian range, the Lines Bros subsidiary Moldex did repaint a set of the Sydney Suburbans in the Blue & Yellow livery of Victorian Railways to try to pass them off as the VR "Harris" stock that replaced the Melbourne "Tait" Reds. Moldex even got as far as including them in their catalogue as R.550, R.551 and R.552 and as a 2 car train set R4X. Unsurprisingly, it fooled no one, and, having been badly received, the idea was quietly abandoned, see Hammond Vol 1 for more details.

 

 

Where can i get one?

[cypherman]

Hi all. Strange that this thread should pop back up again just after I have restored another 2-6-2 3mt tank. This one.

 

 

Edited October 13, 2021 by cypherman