MIDLAND RAILWAY JOHNSON 2-4-0 GENERAL ARRANGEMENT DRAWING

[ACFIELD]

Dear all

Has any one got a copy of a fully dimensioned GA drawing for either a Midland Railway 1400 or a 1492 Class Johnson 2-4-0 that you could let me have a copy of please?  

Cheers

[Compound2632]

8 minutes ago, ACFIELD said:

Dear all

Has any one got a copy of a fully dimensioned GA drawing for either a Midland Railway 1400 or a 1492 Class Johnson 2-4-0 that you could let me have a copy of please?  

Cheers

 

The NRM would probably be the best place to start. @Dave Hunt may be able to advise on what survives. 

[ACFIELD]

The NRM is on the list of places to visit, HMRS at Butterley too, but with the current situation neither can help me so I thought while waiting for them to re-open I'd ask around.

[brossard]

I can't help directly but I can point you to Midland Record:

 

https://britishrailwaybooks.co.uk/periodical/midlandrecord.php

 

I have the series, it is superb, but there are too many issues for me to scroll through.

 

If you click on the cover you will get an index of articles.  I don't know if there are any for the loco you are after.  I know there are loco articles and they usually include works drawings.

 

John

[Compound2632]

21 minutes ago, brossard said:

I can't help directly but I can point you to Midland Record:

 

https://britishrailwaybooks.co.uk/periodical/midlandrecord.php

 

I have the series, it is superb, but there are too many issues for me to scroll through.

 

If you click on the cover you will get an index of articles.  I don't know if there are any for the loco you are after.  I know there are loco articles and they usually include works drawings.

 

There's a series in the later issues on Kirtley and "transitional" 2-4-0s, by @Dave Hunt, but nothing as detailed on the Johnson classes.

[brossard]

I checked the Midland Loco Profiles volumes but there was nothing on this loco.  These are priceless.  I'm thinking you mean these.

 

John

[hobbyhorse]

What version of the Locos are you looking for, i.e. Wheel diameter.

 

Simon

[Compound2632]

2 hours ago, hobbyhorse said:

What version of the Locos are you looking for, i.e. Wheel diameter.

 

Simon

 

He said:

 

14 hours ago, ACFIELD said:

1400 or a 1492 Class

 

i.e. not 6'6".

[hobbyhorse]

I've got a GA for the 6' 9" version, with two other GA's for Cab and Smokebox. These are all unmarked for class other than drawing numbers.

 

Simon

[Compound2632]

Just now, hobbyhorse said:

I've got a GA for the 6' 9" version, with two other GA's for Cab and Smokebox. These are all unmarked for class other than drawing numbers.

 

Class designation was a thing gained after the event. The true signifier is the order number for Derby-built machines or the letter designation for trade-built machines, when anyone remembered. In this case there's only the Neilson-built ones to consider, which did slip through the letter net, being described as "like O.232". (The Dubs-built members of the 1282 Class were letter E.)

 

Beware GAs. What date is @ACFIELD interested in? These engines went through several rebuildings: 18" diameter cylinders in the 1890s, their original P boilers replaced by B boilers in the twenty years to grouping, then Belpaire G6 boilers for most in early LMS days. As built, most had splashers with a flat-topped section in the middle, the full sweeping reverse curve coming possibly at re-cylindering for most, though I gather from @Crimson Rambler that this may have come in with the Neilson batch, being due to their chief draughtsman Edward Snowball. 

 

To establish the configuration of a particular engine at a given date, you'll need to consult S. Summerson, Midland Railway Locomotives Vol. 3 (Irwell Press, 2002). Then you'll need drawings...

 

This apparently homogeneous group of locomotives turns out to be a minefield.

[hobbyhorse]

4 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

 

Class designation was a thing gained after the event. The true signifier is the order number for Derby-built machines or the letter designation for trade-built machines, when anyone remembered. In this case there's only the Neilson-built ones to consider, which did slip through the letter net, being described as "like O.232". (The Dubs-built members of the 1282 Class were letter E.)

 

Beware GAs. What date is @ACFIELD interested in? These engines went through several rebuildings: 18" diameter cylinders in the 1890s, their original P boilers replaced by B boilers in the twenty years to grouping, then Belpaire G6 boilers for most in early LMS days. As built, most had splashers with a flat-topped section in the middle, the full sweeping reverse curve coming possibly at re-cylindering for most, though I gather from @Crimson Rambler that this may have come in with the Neilson batch, being due to their chief draughtsman Edward Snowball. 

 

To establish the configuration of a particular engine at a given date, you'll need to consult S. Summerson, Midland Railway Locomotives Vol. 3 (Irwell Press, 2002). Then you'll need drawings...

 

This apparently homogeneous group of locomotives turns out to be a minefield.

Your obviously more knowledgeable in these matters, and better placed to advise Acfield with these locos.

So I'll withdraw the offer of the Derby drawings.

 

Simon

 

[Compound2632]

19 minutes ago, hobbyhorse said:

Your obviously more knowledgeable in these matters, and better placed to advise Acfield with these locos.

So I'll withdraw the offer of the Derby drawings.

 

I'm sorry, I had no intention of giving offence and I certainly have no wish to come between @ACFIELD and your generosity. I sought to supplement the information that your GA would provide, indicating where an engine in later condition would differ from the GA.  @ACFIELD has not yet stated the condition in which he wishes to model one of these locomotives; for all either of us know they could be aiming for "as built" condition:

 

Edited April 4, 2021 by Compound2632

[ACFIELD]

Thanks everyone who has offered advice so far. My first port of call was Bob Essery’s and Stephen Summerson's fine books to make notes. Then I waded through my sets of Midland Record’s and LMS Journals, nothing in either for what I needed.

 

I’d best explain what I’m doing.

I've been eyeing MR 2-4-0's for a while for my 1905/6 period S7 layout, but the question was which Class – as I’m not that well versed on Order and Drawing Numbers etc. I tend to describe MR locos by class. This approach I will admit doesn’t work when looking for drawings for an engine that I know as a ‘1400 Class’. So thanks every one for your understanding.

Looking through Summerson Vol.3 I can’t find any Drawing Numbers quoted for the 2-4-0’s.

 

Originally I considered two classes, the 1400 (6ft 8½ inch wheels) and the 1492 Class (7ft wheels) and as it is to be scratch built I needed at the very least a GA for the engine and may be one for a tender, but that’s another matter.

 

Judging by what information there is available out there, research is dictating this, my engine will need to be a 1400 Class with 6ft 8½ inch driving wheels.

 

As for the ‘date’ of my engine, it would need to be as seen running in 1905. I haven’t as yet chosen an engine number, however it’ll be from one of the three batches built between 1879 and 1881.

For 1905 it’ll have the revised full sweeping reverse curve design of splasher. As for the boiler and cylinders, Summerson’s book appears to show all would still have had P boilers at that date, and all which hadn’t got them had 18 inch cylinders fitted by 1905. So that makes life a little easier.

 

Hobbyhorse’s drawings seem to be what I need, would you be happy to let me have copies of the 6' 9" version GA and the cab and smokebox drawings? I take it when you say 6ft 9inch you mean 6ft 8½ inch driving wheels.

 

Cheers

Tony

 

 

[Compound2632]

I'm sorry that @hobbyhorse took offence at the supplementary information I offered; I hope you appreciate that I didn't know the point from which you were starting. I suppose that as an S7 modeller of the Midland, you are already familiar with @Dave Hunt's work. Even in S7, the bore of the cylinders - 17" or 18" - is not going to be evident!

 

My own interest in the topic stems from having an old and still incomplete Ratio kit and never quite having been able to decide what it can be made to represent...

Edited April 4, 2021 by Compound2632