GWR Mainline Collett/Airfix coaches

[PJ-101]

I'm trying to improve some old GWR Mainline 60' coaches and Airfix suburban B sets, nothing too detailed, just weathering really as next to Hornby's latest offerings they don't hold up too well.  The interiors are pretty poor so looking to give them a paint job to tone down the plasticky look. I've tried all sorts of colour variations but can't quite getting them looking right.  Any suggestions on suitable colours to use?  I'd prefer acrylic as I want to airbrush them, but can go enamel, and I'll then brush paint the seats reddish for second and blue for first. Compared colours to photo's but nothing looks quite right out of the tin/pot. Thanks.

[The Johnster]

The B sets respond well to a bit of working up.  Personally, I think the most obviously jarring feature is the plastic windows, shaped to provide the correct amount of set in from the sides but the thickness causes a prism effect that creates the illusion that the window reveals are too small.  Mine have been rebuilt into a brake third and an all third, and I have ‘conventionally’ glazed them with clear plastic along the inside of the body sides, which I think looks better overall than having the correct set in. 
 

The BR. livery is, SFAICT, intended to represent 1956 unlined maroon, but is a bit too purple for my taste, made worse by the colour fading.  A repaint is advised.  The interiors can be painted which improves the look considerably; cream for sides and compartment dividers, red seats in 3rd and blue in 1st, dark grey lino for floors, and I paint the insides of roofs white to better reflect the light in there.  It is worth fitting no smoking and first class transfers inside the windows of the appropriate compartments. 
 

A big improvement in appearance results from proper sizes buffers on the outer ends of the set.  These can be obtained from several sources; Wizard are my go to and can provide the correct square shanked type in cast whitemetal, which, once the mould line is filed out, are much better than the undernourished Airfix plastic mushroomy blobs.  The Airfix 7’ Collett bogies were pretty good when they were first introduced, but things have moved on and if I were doing it now I’d be using the very good current Hornby’s or Stafford Road Works/Shapeways 3D prints, which come with NEM pockets printed in. They run very well with Hornby or Bachmann wheelsets with no need for bearings.  It’s worth replacing the plastic Airfix wheels anyway; all metal run better and spread less dirt about your layout. 
 

Pick out the door handles and grab rails in brass enamel, and if you really want to gild the lily, Wizard supply lighting cable connectors to replace the moulded on ones on the outer ends.  Depending on your curves you may be able to close couple the set, and Roxey do suitable lamp brackets.  
 

The Mainline 60’ sunshines need less work, but will benefit from painted interiors and window transfers.  

[MPR]

I’m working on a few of these at the moment - I reckon that the Colletts in particular scrub up quite nicely as layout coaches. The main thing to know is that the very oldest (Mainline) are the best - the tooling was modified early on for better stability - the windows on later (and current) releases are shallower than they should be. 

The B set coaches really do need a lot more work if you are picky , everything below the sole bar is more or less fictional, the bogies are poor, the buffer beam & buffers are wrong, there’s an extra window where there shouldn’t be and the door handles are the wrong types. One advantage of this type is that there is laser glaze available - this will sort the prismatic effect and provide a filler for the extraneous window. Even for basic detailing, I’d definitely swap out for proper coach buffers at the outer ends of the set as Johnster suggests. Painting the interior makes a big difference too - I simply sprayed my interior brown and brushed enamel for the seats - the windows on a B set are pretty small!

Edited April 30, 2021 by MPR
Clarity

[PJ-101]

I'd managed to convince myself that it wasn't worth the effort doing too much (wishfully thinking retooled versions may be along soon!) but now you've sown the seed and I'm starting to rethink along the lines above. I certainly agree that the windows on the B sets look odd, maybe replace buffers as well, oh and the wheels, perhaps the bogies, damn it, now I can't leave it as a paint job, I'm going to have to give it a lot more work!

[Il Grifone]

The B-sets had a special short buffer at the inner end which can be represented by the Airfix buffer as it's rather inconspicuous in the narrow gap. I am not aware of anyone doing the correct type in any case. Likewise the curved headstocks should be straight, but it's only worthwhile doing the outer ones IMHO. As stated, the door handles should be recessed, not proud of the body side. Someone obviously read the drawing wrongly. So far I've chickened out of of this (I have eight of the things...).

The bogies are rather sparse of detail and replacement or reworking is advisable. There was a variation of these coaches with 9' bogies.

A bit of dirt around the windows might help with the prismatic effect. I can remember always having dirty hands from the filthy windows after travelling by train as a child (smuts and other fallout outside and smoking inside).

Edited April 27, 2021 by Il Grifone

[Metr0Land]

I've had a lot of pleasure over the years rehabiltating old Airfix, Mainline and occasionally Lima offerings.  It also gave me a chance to try and develop weathering skills on cheap pieces.  IMHO the Airfix B set coaches scrub up reasonably well.  I don't think I bothered with interior colours as they should(?) look dark anyway.  I did paint the window surrounds black and install Flush Glaze.  I also added passengers and window decals, plus respray and weathering.  Below are Airfix coaches in unlined maroon and crimson, and for comparison the latest Hornby Collett in crimson.  (I couldn't bear to pay £40+ for a coach but did pick this one up for just over £20).  The Hornby coach was weathered but not resprayed though I did paint the window surrounds black.

 

 

Edited April 27, 2021 by Metr0Land

[The Johnster]

Nice looking scrub-ups, Metroland.  I’d forgotten about filling in the surplus window; milliput on mine.  It’s the one to the right of the guard’s door on the maroon liveried coach in your photos, and filling it makes a big difference to the look of the set.   Flush Glaze is obviously worth the effort and you’ve inspired me to do it to my coaches now. 

Edited April 27, 2021 by The Johnster

[5050]

Shawplan produce the laser cut window sets for the B Set.  I've seen a demonstrator showing how he fitted the laser windows into the apertures and then sprayed the whole coach with Klear to fix the windows and provide a base for weathering.

[PJ-101]

On 26/04/2021 at 23:41, The Johnster said:

The B sets respond well to a bit of working up.  Personally, I think the most obviously jarring feature is the plastic windows, shaped to provide the correct amount of set in from the sides but the thickness causes a prism effect that creates the illusion that the window reveals are too small.  Mine have been rebuilt into a brake third and an all third, and I have ‘conventionally’ glazed them with clear plastic along the inside of the body sides, which I think looks better overall than having the correct set in. 
 

The BR. livery is, SFAICT, intended to represent 1956 unlined maroon, but is a bit too purple for my taste, made worse by the colour fading.  A repaint is advised.  The interiors can be painted which improves the look considerably; cream for sides and compartment dividers, red seats in 3rd and blue in 1st, dark grey lino for floors, and I paint the insides of roofs white to better reflect the light in there.  It is worth fitting no smoking and first class transfers inside the windows of the appropriate compartments. 
 

A big improvement in appearance results from proper sizes buffers on the outer ends of the set.  These can be obtained from several sources; Wizard are my go to and can provide the correct square shanked type in cast whitemetal, which, once the mould line is filed out, are much better than the undernourished Airfix plastic mushroomy blobs.  The Airfix 7’ Collett bogies were pretty good when they were first introduced, but things have moved on and if I were doing it now I’d be using the very good current Hornby’s or Stafford Road Works/Shapeways 3D prints, which come with NEM pockets printed in. They run very well with Hornby or Bachmann wheelsets with no need for bearings.  It’s worth replacing the plastic Airfix wheels anyway; all metal run better and spread less dirt about your layout. 
 

Pick out the door handles and grab rails in brass enamel, and if you really want to gild the lily, Wizard supply lighting cable connectors to replace the moulded on ones on the outer ends.  Depending on your curves you may be able to close couple the set, and Roxey do suitable lamp brackets.  
 

The Mainline 60’ sunshines need less work, but will benefit from painted interiors and window transfers.  

thanks for all your thoughts on this, which Hornby bogie replacements would be the correct one's to use?

 

[The Johnster]

Collett 7 foot wheelbase bogies are the ones from the 57’ Collett bow-ended coaches, both gangwayed and suburban.  Different from the 9’ wheelbase ‘Pressed Steel’ bogies used on the Hawksworth 64’ stock. 

[MPR]

Alternatively, MJT do white metal 7’ bogies. I’d always use these as cosmetic sides with their CCU’s - but these need some soldering in their assembly.

[roythebus1]

If these were used singly with other coaching stock how were the short buffers modified for such use? There's pictures around of them being used singly with BR suburban stock and used with the brake ends coupled together.

 

I've got a pair of the Airfix version and tried without much success to fit the Keen systems close-coupling to them. They need a lot of chopping to make it fit so they've been in a box for many years.

 

Edited April 30, 2021 by roythebus1

[The Johnster]

There were several diagrams of B set coaches, and the E129 that is the prototype for the Airfix coach was never used as an individual coach, so the inner short buffers never had to be used with ‘normal’ stock.  The final diagram of B sets, the E147, were in some cases given normal buffers and thus could be used as individual coaches, and I believe some were in their later lives in Devon and Cornwall.   These were flat ended coaches with 9’ ‘pressed steel’ bogies. 

[Mike_Walker]

10 hours ago, The Johnster said:

There were several diagrams of B set coaches, and the E129 that is the prototype for the Airfix coach was never used as an individual coach, so the inner short buffers never had to be used with ‘normal’ stock.  The final diagram of B sets, the E147, were in some cases given normal buffers and thus could be used as individual coaches, and I believe some were in their later lives in Devon and Cornwall.   These were flat ended coaches with 9’ ‘pressed steel’ bogies. 

Really?  I've always been under the impression they were based on the E140 design.  There was a version of those with 9' bogies which were E145.

[The Johnster]

I've got my E numbers mixed up again; it is very firmly fixed in my mind that the Airfix B set coaches are E129.  They are, of course, as you rightly say, E140.

 

Ok, let's get this straightened out in Johnster's head:-

 

.E116, flat ended with 9' 'fishbelly' bogies, permanently coupled by central 'tommy bar' coupling, no inner buffers, 1st class compartments at inner ends of the coaches.  K's made plastic kit sometimes available 2h, needs floor and interior, as well as general detailing.

 

.E129, bow ended with 1st class compartment next but one to brake compt (all subsequent types follow this pattern).  New style for windows and droplights to match main line b/e Colletts,  Fish belly bogies.   Permanently coupled no inner buffers.  Comet Kit.

 

.E135, as E129 but with Collett 7' bogies

 

E140, as E135 but with recessed guard's doors.  The Airfix/Dapol/Hornby RTR model.

 

E145, as E140 but with Collett 9' bogies.  To convert from E140, remove the bogies, cut the raised plastic bogie mount out of the floor, and re-attach it alongside the slot you've just cut towards the centre of the coach.  If you use the bogies from an Airfix auto trailer, the surplus 7' Collett bogies can be used beneath the trailer, with the bogie mount cut out in the same way but positioned to the outer side of the slot, making an A27 of sorts.

 

E147, flat ended, new window style to match 60' Collett 'sunshine' main line stock, 9' 'Pressed Steel' bogies.  Some late build coaches given conventioal buffers and couplings at the inner ends but still worked as B sets in pairs, though used singly in South Devon and Cornwall in later period.  Comet kit.

 

These set pairs were not universally known as B sets on the GW or BR(W), but the term is common usage amongst modellers.  Some of the conventionally buffered E147s were converted to diagram A32 auto trailers for use on the Lydney-Sharpness service, first class being needed as part of the joint agreement with the LMS concerning services over the Severn Bridge.  The driving cabs were in the brake ends of the coaches and had a single rectangular driver's window.  This style was also used for the similar Collett brake 3rds converted to diagram A43 by BR(W) in 1953 in connection with an extension of auto working in South Wales.  These were known as 'Cyclops' coaches.