Help with decoder selection for Hornby DCC Ready

[A4 Terrier]

Hope that someone can help with advice regarding what appears to be strange behaviour of decoders in a Hornby DCC Ready loco.

I have carried out conversions on a number of locos but never come across the problem I discovered yesterday. A Hornby Castle class and King class were on my bench to be converted for a friend.  Did the Castle with a Bachmann 36-566 with no dramas. Tested, coded and it runs fine. Opened up the King Class, took out the blank and input 36-566. The loco went only a few inches then put my controller in to overload. Tried another new chip with immediate overload.  Tried a TCS decoder which was OK - not great but didn't code it fully because it's too big for the loco body. Then tried a Hornby decoder and the loco runs but not very smooth at low speed, in fact downright scratchy in slow reverse; once a medium pace is reached it is good.  Bachmann decoders perform on tester and cannot find a short metering all over the loco.

Unsure whether this is a decoder incompatibilty fault, a loco fault or where to go next. Can anyone help or point me in the right direction.

[mikeg]

Try a Zimo chip they generally have better load control and give better general control of a loco. I have tried Bachman’s chips and found them useless also Hornby are very different depending on who manufactured them the only ones I think are worth buying are their TTS ones for the money they are good value but limited to 0.5amp so only suitable for the new generation of motors.

 

regards Mike 

[A4 Terrier]

Thanks for the advice. Never had the problem with Bachmann decoders and much prefer them to Hornby.  I know of Zimo but never used them; it will be interesting to give one a try in the Hornby King class loco and see if it performs differently without giving an overload cut-out.

Regards.

[A4 Terrier]

Mike thanks for your help.  I've got it, the answer came to me in the middle of the night. Someone has resoldered or put in a replacement socket.  The soldering seen only when the socket is taken out, is awful and the tabs for a number of the pins were bridged.  No wonder there was a short when a decoder was added.  it's so bad have ordered a new one in stead of trying to clean up.

Thanks again.

[Pete the Elaner]

18 hours ago, mikeg said:

Try a Zimo chip they generally have better load control and give better general control of a loco. I have tried Bachman’s chips and found them useless also Hornby are very different depending on who manufactured them the only ones I think are worth buying are their TTS ones for the money they are good value but limited to 0.5amp so only suitable for the new generation of motors.

 

regards Mike 

 

Anther vote for Zimo.

Bachmann use 3rd party decoders & re-badge them. I believe they are using Zimo at the moment, but this has not always been the case.

I believe they do a budget version, but their MX600 costs about the same as a Hornby R8249, controls motors much more nicely & has more controllability (speed curves, support for advanced consisting etc).

I am especially wary about factory-fitted DCC. Who knows what they put it it? My first (of 2) DCC ready locos was a Hornby Stanier tank, long after they had replaced their earlier notorious decoder with the newer R8249 in their range. What chip do you think was inside it? It only ran in 1 direction & the decoder didn't look like an R8249, so I guess it was an old piece of junk from their 'not for sale' bin?

I only have 2 Bachmann decoders, both around 10 years old. Both ignore CV3 & set off at full speed, even though I can see CV3 has been set correctly. They are in DVTs now, providing lighting control.

 

I also have a few Gaugemaster & Zen decoders and a 6-pin Lenz silver, but these don't seem to provide as smooth running as my Zimos.

 

[RAF96]

Many Hornby factory fit locos used the old and totally unreliable R8215 decoder and of course old stock on shop shelves would carry these decoders into traffic long after their sell by date and subsequent replacement with the basic but NMRA qualified R8249 decoder.

Zimo seems to be the current market preference for value and ability along with reliability.

Maybe time for Hornby to up the ante and produce a new range of decoders for this decade.

[Ron Ron Ron]

10 hours ago, Pete the Elaner said:

......I am especially wary about factory-fitted DCC. Who knows what they put it it? ....

 

 

Unless it's a brand like Roco, who used to fit Lenz (not the budget model), but for the last few years have been putting in Zimo decoders, exclusively.

 

Hornby have been cheapskates, by fitting their own, poor, basic decoders. They could have put their Sapphire in, for the price premium they charge for DCC on board.

 

 

6 hours ago, RAF96 said:

.....Maybe time for Hornby to up the ante and produce a new range of decoders for this decade.

 

They'd be better served, scrapping their own brand decoders (cheaply made in Hong Kong or thereabouts) and striking a deal with a well regarded, established decoder manufacturer.

I guess they've been too  busy trying to devise ways of controlling clockwork trains using a mobile phone, or something like that?

 

 

.

 

Edited May 31, 2021 by Ron Ron Ron

[Pete the Elaner]

6 hours ago, RAF96 said:

Many Hornby factory fit locos used the old and totally unreliable R8215 decoder and of course old stock on shop shelves would carry these decoders into traffic long after their sell by date and subsequent replacement with the basic but NMRA qualified R8249 decoder.

Zimo seems to be the current market preference for value and ability along with reliability.

Maybe time for Hornby to up the ante and produce a new range of decoders for this decade.

 

Using Digitrains as an example, they sell Zimo MX600R for £20.00 & Hornby R8249 for £18.90, so the difference in price is slim.

The difference in performance is enormous. The Zimo seems to give good performance well without any adjustment, but for those who want it, adjustment is available. Back EMF, speed curves, advanced consisting & it has a decent current output.

I have found the Hornby ones seem to do what they are supposed to, but have limited current output & if it does not work so well, there is little you can do in the way of adjustments to make it better.

Value for money: The Zimo wins hands down.

[brossard]

All but one of my 0 gauge locos has Zimo sound decoder.  Excellent!  My outlier has ESU Loksound, also excellent, although I did need to autotune it.  I have had Lenz for 00 as well which are superb.

 

Agree about Hornby decoders, I wouldn't touch them except for carriage light control.

 

My attitude is buy decoders from companies that actually specialize in DCC.

 

John

[Ron Ron Ron]

14 hours ago, brossard said:

....My attitude is buy decoders from companies that actually specialize in DCC.

 

 

What does that actually mean John?

That can be seen as a lazy and misleading statement.

 

Take Bachmann.

Their decoders have all been sourced from reputable DCC decoder manufacturers.

Originally using Lenz, then changed to ESU, then Soundtraxx, then switching back to ESU and now Zimo.

Currently, Bachmann's decoders are rebadged ESU and Zimo models.

 

Roco is a different example.

They're a long time DCC manufacturer (LokMaus, LokMaus2, MultiMaus, MultiMaus Pro, and now the Z21 & z21 ).

However, like Bachmann and other RTR model manufacturers, they buy in and rebadge decoders (from Zimo, but previously from Lenz).

 

 

.

[Pete the Elaner]

5 minutes ago, Ron Ron Ron said:

 

What does that actually mean John?

That can be seen as a lazy and misleading statement.

 

Take Bachmann.

Their decoders have all been sourced from reputable DCC decoder manufacturers.

Originally using Lenz, then changed to ESU, then Soundtraxx, then switching back to ESU and now Zimo.

Currently, Bachmann's decoders are rebadged ESU and Zimo models.

 

Roco is a different example.

They're a long time DCC manufacturer (LokMaus, LokMaus2, MultiMaus, MultiMaus Pro, and now the Z21 & z21 ).

However, like Bachmann and other RTR model manufacturers, they buy in and rebadge decoders (from Zimo, but previously from Lenz).

 

 

.

 

I think you answered your own question.

 

When you buy a Zimo, Lenz or ESU decoder, you are buying just that. Most will be buying it because we have either heard good reports about them or because we already have some & find they work well.

 

If a brand such as Bachmann gets other manufacturers to re-badge their product, then you don't really know what you are getting.

 

If you buy a jar of Tesco syrup, what are you actually getting? Silver Spoon make their syrup from beet, but Tate & Lyle make theirs from cane. The two taste very different.

So supposing you try Tesco syrup & find it is ok because it is made from cane, then they change suppliers & their product becomes beet-based. How would you know?

[brossard]

29 minutes ago, Ron Ron Ron said:

 

What does that actually mean John?

That can be seen as a lazy and misleading statement.

 

Take Bachmann.

Their decoders have all been sourced from reputable DCC decoder manufacturers.

Originally using Lenz, then changed to ESU, then Soundtraxx, then switching back to ESU and now Zimo.

Currently, Bachmann's decoders are rebadged ESU and Zimo models.

 

Roco is a different example.

They're a long time DCC manufacturer (LokMaus, LokMaus2, MultiMaus, MultiMaus Pro, and now the Z21 & z21 ).

However, like Bachmann and other RTR model manufacturers, they buy in and rebadge decoders (from Zimo, but previously from Lenz).

 

 

.

 

I think you answered your own question.  With Bachmann you never know what you are getting.  While the underlying decoders are from reputable names, I recall that they were dumbed down in that not all CVs were available (this is from a number of years ago so things might have changed).  I never used Roco.

 

To me it is about core competency.  Bachmann and Hornby are very competent railway model makers but are not in the DCC business.  So, stick to products from companies whose bread and butter is DCC.

 

I do remember that the best loco I ever had was the Hornby Black 5 with sound on board.  The decoder used was ESU Loksound and performance was superb.

 

John

Edited June 1, 2021 by brossard

[Ron Ron Ron]

3 minutes ago, Pete the Elaner said:

....If a brand such as Bachmann gets other manufacturers to re-badge their product, then you don't really know what you are getting.

 

 

2 minutes ago, brossard said:

 

.......With Bachmann you never know what you are getting. 

 

Both wrong.

Bachman. have always said who supplies their decoders. There's no secret about it, the information has always been there.

More recently, they've been more forthright about it.

On their new web site, if you look at the decoders in the relevant products section, it clearly tells you that the user manuals are those for the OEM's original version.

 

6 minutes ago, brossard said:

 

.....While the underlying decoders are from reputable names, I recall that they were dumbed down in that not all CVs were available (this is from a number of years ago so things might have changed).......

 

That's not at all correct.

 

The Lenz sourced decoders (early '00's) were identical to mainstream items in the Lenz range at that time.

As Lenz decoders, they were well regarded at the time, except for the awful and short-lived  1 function budget decoder.

 

The non-sound ESU decoders have been absolutely identical models to the ESU budget equivalent; originally the LokPilot Basic, followed more recently by the LokPilot Standard, both now discontinued.

Although there was no difference, or "dumbing down" between the ESU and Bachmann versions, those (the ESU branded items) did have a limited range of CV's compared with the main LokPilot models (V3 and V4) and used an older motor drive component. They were sold by ESU as budget decoders after all.

ESU's current budget decoder is the LokPilot 5 Basic, which Bachmann don't sell under their own name.

 

Bachmann's Zimo sourced decoders are identical to the equivalent models sold by Zimo.

 

The only deviation from this, was the period when Soundtraxx supplied their decoders (the green ones).

The 21-pin was I believe, a hybrid, or variation of another Soundtraxx decoder.

 

 

 

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