District Line vs Main Line - thinking about faster Fishguard trains

[Rhydgaled]

The case for opening Goodwick again must be very very marginal if at all and I suspect the story that was put out to reopen the place was more of a Cardif Bay stunt to attract votes. Try campaigning to stop the air-bridge between Cardiff and Angelsy and get to £800,000 that soaks up of tax payers money diverted to the Fishguard reopening. The air bridge is there for only one person and he is the head of a well known Welsh politiczl party.

Air bridge £800,000?!?!?!? That's more than the total annual public subsidy of £720,248 for the TrawsCambria bus network which is much, much more worthwhile than the air bridge. TrawsCambria benifits many areas of Wales too, wheras the air bridge only serves Anglesey and Cardiff (and by the position of Cardiff airport, the Vale Of Glamorgan). With the air-bridge costing £800,000 the cost of re-opening Wolfscastle (which after a new vist is much more than I expected before but I would still be very supprised if it was more than £35,000 (which allows £15,000 contingentcy over my guesstimate of £20,000 for staff earning higher wages and a system to inform the driver when the connecting bus has arrived)) looks fairly small. Admittadly my knowlage of costs of the works required is next to none and the train service would cost quite a lot. As the train would continue to Fishguard though the additional stop at Wolfscastle wouldn't add to the cost of adding trains serving Fishguard.

 

Wolfscastle station could not have car-parking, and the bus would not go down the lane. The lane would be for predestrian (and I suppose cyclist) access to the station. The proximity of the bus stop to the lane is illustrated by this photo (the 412 bus present is heading towards Fishguard/Cardigan and is in the bus-stop on the far side of the road. The near-side bus stop is for services to Haverfordwest):

The lane might be a bit too steep for wheelchair access, but it's not as bad as I remembered from my previous vist so could be ok. Here's a veiw looking up the lane:

 

The reason the ammount of work is greater than I assumed on my first vist is that, as well as being moved to the centre of the trackbed, the track has been raised on an embankment of balast so that, if you extended the platform out to it, it would be too high up. Incendently now it is on top of the mound of balast (which would have been there on my previous vist but I just didn't remember or notice it) the track is no-longer level but on quite a gradient, which explains the comment that started the topic. However since the gradient is caused by a mound of balast which raises the track too high for the platforms the re-opening is not impossible, just more expensive than I orrigianlly assumed.

 

I have mixed feelings about re-opening Fisguard & Goodwick. For one I would like to see the building restored, which is not going to happen unless the station is re-opened, even if it is opened they could just pull the building down (they would have to give themselves conservation area consent to do that though). On the other hand Fishguard harbour station is a useful asset, with plenty of spare platform length for steam excursions and if traffic increases alot, which could be in jepody if Fishguard & Goodwick is re-opened. Fishguard Harbour is already an esstablished station, with car-parking facilities, while Fishguard & Goodwick is an exposed walk away from the car park behind the mini Tesco. The only advantage Fishguard & Goodwick has over Fishguard Harbour is it would not require a lengthy diversion to be served by a through bus between Fishguard/Cardigan and St Davids.

 

 

In addition, I have recently been on the Fishguard train (joined it at Whitland and went to Cardiff) and arrived at Cardiff 15mins early. We were traveling quite slowly on parts of the district line so with propper maintainence services that way would certainly be fast.

[The Stationmaster]

So, as previously suggested, the line at site of Wolfscastle is on a gradient and a curve and is therefore super elevated. So take out the super-elevation (=reduction of linespeed = loss of running time) to build, on a gradient, a station which hardly anyone is likely to use.

 

I looked at a job on a not dissimilar sort of site up in Scotland a few years ago - two sites, both super-elevated = virtual no-no for building a station. That one was to be funded by building developers to serve a community of 25,000 people with an hourly train service on each of two routes - and it didn't wash its face financially. I think that answers your questions for Wolfscastle (even before the recent General Election).

[Guest stuartp]

...the cost of re-opening Wolfscastle (which after a new vist is much more than I expected before but I would still be very supprised if it was more than £35,000 (which allows £15,000 contingentcy over my guesstimate of £20,000 for staff earning higher wages and a system to inform the driver when the connecting bus has arrived)) looks fairly small.

 

You might need to add a couple of noughts to that. The costs for Apperley Bridge and Kirkstall Forge, bog standard DDA-accessible two-platform stations on straight and level (ish) track, come in at several million each. These are for new build, which is what you're realistically looking at for Wolfescastle. You only need one platform so you might save £0.5m on materials and labour there, but it's still an enormous expense.

 

An awful lot of people live in the lower Aire Valley and it's taken years to get these agreed.

 

WYPTE Apperley Bridge business case, costs on page 44.

[The Stationmaster]

 

snipped ... the cost of re-opening Wolfscastle (which after a new vist is much more than I expected before but I would still be very supprised if it was more than £35,000 (which allows £15,000 contingentcy over my guesstimate of £20,000 for staff earning higher wages and a system to inform the driver when the connecting bus has arrived)) looks fairly small. Admittadly my knowlage of costs of the works required is next to none ...

 

 

oops, I missed that bit until I saw Stuart's reply.

 

I doubt if you would get much past some outline drawings and possibly a preliminary survey for 35 grand. But that assumes you've already had a proper market survey (at least £10K and more likely nearer £20K) and a timetable assessment which would cost a couple of thousand at commercial rates.

 

So basically it is likely to cost well over £35,000 to see if it's worthwhile building a station and establishing if it is a feasible job from a technical viewpoint. I doubt if anyone in today's climate would be prepared to spend that and in fact I seriously doubt if they would even pay for a (cheaper) 'high level' survey to see if it's worth progressing to a market survey and initial feasibility assessment. The last job I was involved in this similar to this idea was several years ago and cost someone over £25,000 - for looking at opening a single station (without a full technical feasibility survey - the only technical aspect in that was me looking at timetable and signalling capacity which was sub-contracted to my employer by the company doing the market assessment; a civil engineering assessment would have cost as much).

 

The new single platform station at Corby cost £1.2million according to an internet source and while that is longer than the platform needed at Wolfscastle the possession costs would have been considerably cheaper and the site was much simpler to work on.

 

At least you would avoid the big cost penalty of double line stations where new ramped footbridges now come in at over £1 million a copy.

 

So - in summary - in today's financial climate I think you needn't even bother to put the idea on the back burner as I doubt anyone would even be prepared to take it near the stove.

[Etched Pixels]

Well I amazed (and my cynical hat says 'election pending') but

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-south-west-wales-12909398

 

not ideal as people will have to go for a long trip into the harbour to get the train but a start. Now they just need the station sorting.

[two tone green]

Now this is going to be interesting. So many issues with this starting with what was said above about the station being a way into the harbour area.

 

Sorry, but with its location, limited population needing to travel it will be more of how long will it last rather then making long term plans.

 

And I think the election pending impact mentioned above could well be right.

[The Stationmaster]

Now this is going to be interesting. So many issues with this starting with what was said above about the station being a way into the harbour area.

 

Sorry, but with its location, limited population needing to travel it will be more of how long will it last rather then making long term plans.

 

And I think the election pending impact mentioned above could well be right.

 

I found it rather odd that they are talking about a review after 3 years. I wonder if that will turn into '3 months' after the election? And of course it will have to be resourced from somewhere - I wonder who will be paying those costs (or will the story become 'owing to a shortage of trains available for hire...."?). Sorry to be cynical but some things about it just don't seem to stack up in a logical fashion.

[Fat Controller]

I found it rather odd that they are talking about a review after 3 years. I wonder if that will turn into '3 months' after the election? And of course it will have to be resourced from somewhere - I wonder who will be paying those costs (or will the story become 'owing to a shortage of trains available for hire...."?). Sorry to be cynical but some things about it just don't seem to stack up in a logical fashion.

Especially when you see the noises Arriva are making about their bus provision in the Principality...

[lmsforever]

How many people use the Fishguard service and does it connect with the ferries seems a lot of money to keep the planes flying when bus and rail provide a good alternative,agree with comment about elections.

[Etched Pixels]

How many people use the Fishguard service and does it connect with the ferries seems a lot of money to keep the planes flying when bus and rail provide a good alternative,agree with comment about elections.

 

The existing service connects with the Ferry. The evening service is also the last train to various other bits of West Wales so well populated. They daytime one is often quite busy all the way from Fishguard but its busy with Ferry passengers on the whole as the station is miles from Fishguard proper, the real Fishguard station having been closed long ago.

 

It's a very nice journey although the start of the Irish end is underwhelming as they've closed the award winning station integrated into the concourse and replaced with a walk to a mis-signposted ghastly vandalproof monstrosity that would offend even a bad housing estate.

 

The rest of the trip up to Dublin is great though, certainly on par with the Devon coast if not better scenically and cheap too.

 

Alan

[Edwin_m]

seems a lot of money to keep the planes flying when bus and rail provide a good alternative

 

I don't understand this comment. Flights to Ireland are provided commercially so (unlike this train service) there is no cost to the public. The only vaguely relevant subsidised flight I can think of is the one from Cardiff to Anglesey which is not of any importance to Fishguard. You may wish to argue that airlines don't pay their fair costs to society but that is a different debate and we are where we are on that one.

 

Classic rail plus ferry is difficult to sustain. For those travelling between the biggest population centres of the UK and Ireland without a car, air will provide a quicker, cheaper and probably more frequent option. Obviously those who need to transport a car will drive all the way to and from the ferry. The Fishguard ferry competes with two flights per day between Cardiff and Dublin, so is reasonably attractive only between the far SW of Wales (probably not even Swansea) and most of Ireland, or perhaps between Cardiff and parts of SE Ireland. Neither of these flows is going to generate very many passengers, since each involves an area with very low population density.

 

In North Wales there is a reasonable population along the rail route to Holyhead, so the trains mainly carry local people and any ferry traffic is a bonus. However the Fishguard rail service effectively only serves the ferry (plus that interesting market of people who come straight back on the return working), and that really isn't much compared with the costs of running the train or maintaining the infrastructure west of Clarbeston Road.

[two tone green]

Fishguard to where.... Carmarthen. Does not go to the main centres in Pembrokeshire of Haverfordwest and Milford Haven which are on the same side of the river that divides the country from Pembroke, Pembroke Dock and Tenby etc. To get to the south side its a change at Whiteland and the trains don't line up to do this with ease.

 

If any local people are going to use the service they will have to be traveling to Carmarthen or onwards as it really wont be worth the trek along the harbour to the station. If they do and go by car they will find parking difficult. Catchment area small. The suggestions of people coming as far away as Cardigan to travel by train on a dialy, regular basis are living in lar lar land, aint going to happen. The winter weather will put most people off. People are lazy, they want direct travel not go in a car to the station in the opposite direct to the way they want to go to spend a lot of money on a slow journey to nowhere. The will jump in there cars ad go by car to where they want to go a lot quicker. The bus is easier as well to get to the main centres around Pembrokeshire.

 

Really this is juts a vote catcher and nothing else. As for the comments on flights and trains, then do stop the Cardiff Angelsy flight that takes the leader of Plaid home on a daily basis and rejected the call to stop the massive subsidies by all of his party at the last conference. He basically said, its my flight, why should I give it up !!! The money could well keep many a train running if he listened to those who elected him leader.

 

There is just no need for this, it wont happen.

[Etched Pixels]

Obviously those who need to transport a car will drive all the way to and from the ferry. The Fishguard ferry competes with two flights per day between Cardiff and Dublin, so is reasonably attractive only between the far SW of Wales (probably not even Swansea) and most of Ireland, or perhaps between Cardiff and parts of SE Ireland. Neither of these flows is going to generate very many passengers, since each involves an area with very low population density.

 

Actually the Ferries themselves generate a lot of traffic because of the freight business but that goes by road. There is a lot of interest in stopping the freight mess from West Wales by road but its not trivial logistically. The Fishguard ferry service gets quite a few users, especially in summer. It's been quite busy when I've been on it, and it wasn't full of people wanting to visit the only smoking station or in search of Hoovers (long replaced by a pair of 150s). On the Irish side Rosslare is the centre of a big bus operation and you can hop off the ferry onto a bus almost anywhere in Ireland.

 

The ferry doesn't however credibly compete with flights between Cardiff and Dublin, it's really useful between the south of Ireland and the south of Wales. To Dublin is only worth doing for the trip (recommended) or in the case of the Swansea/Cork ferry sometimes if you are near Swansea. If anything the ferry foot passenger traffic competes with services to Shannon. The North Wales ferries compete with flights to Dublin.

 

Adding some sanity to Pembroke/Fishguard/Milford interconnections is also you'll note part of the proposal.

 

(Cardigan people according to the studies get the train at Carmarthen, I assume the parking is cheapest there )

[Fat Controller]

A lot of the year-round passenger traffic has gone, either because less Irish people have been migrating to mainland Britain whilst the Celtic Tiger had its brief period of prosperity, or because those who do live and work in the UK use Eireoflot and its competitors instead. I would go as far as to suggest that the only reason the ferries survive year-round is because of the freight traffic, the passenger traffic being concentrated around holiday times.

I do wonder about the '3-year' revision period- is it coincidence that it will probably coincide when the youngsters who set the ball rolling finish university, and probably return home less often?

[two tone green]

The so called interconnection between Fishguard and the rest of Pembrokeshire, no. No sanity in that at all. Again people wont do it. Car will win.

 

The A40 is a mess, does not support quick movement of freight west of St.Clears due to it being a slow road. Irrespective of it being designated a red route under EC ruling to be a fast well maintained road, it is not. I drive it often and the bit from St Clears to H'west can take as long as LHR to St Clears. Well almost. They have said don't expect the A40 to be dueled in a long time, no need for it was the answer. When the ferry empties out during the summer with holiday traffic, it can be almost a continuous block of traffic from Fishguard to St. Clears and that's over thirty miles. I look at the clock and consider when I set off from St.Davids to go east knowing what its like with Ferry traffic.

 

The so called Welsh Assembly is biased to North Wales and Holyhead. The money put into the A55 and all the stuff along the north Wales coast makes it the preferred route time and again.

 

Then there is the dilution of services from West Wales because of the Irish Sea Ferries service from Pembroke Dock which has I believe just agreed a long term deal to continue its service from there. Seems to be doing well and if the Swansea Cork gets going well then less call again for Fishguard. But I doubt Swansea will dent the West Wales ferry rotes much die to the slow journey time down the coast and around the end before setting off for Ireland. I can see it being attractive to drivers on a tacho who need a rest and use the longer trip time from Swansea to rest up.

 

The more I think about the restoration of servies from Fishguard the more I relaise the lot in Cardiff Bay really have lost the plot.

[Rhydgaled]

Well I amazed (and my cynical hat says 'election pending') but

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk...-wales-12909398

 

not ideal as people will have to go for a long trip into the harbour to get the train but a start. Now they just need the station sorting.

I did not find any reference to Fishguard Harbour in that article, so perhaps the plan is to use Fishguard & Goodwick. That is far better suituated, the platform is still intact and the council bought the site a while back.

 

Fishguard to where.... Carmarthen. If any local people are going to use the service they will have to be traveling to Carmarthen or onwards. ---- Catchment area small. The suggestions of people coming as far away as Cardigan to travel by train on a dialy, regular basis are living in lar lar land, aint going to happen. The winter weather will put most people off. People are lazy, they want direct travel not go in a car to the station in the opposite direct to the way they want to go to spend a lot of money on a slow journey to nowhere. The will jump in there cars ad go by car to where they want to go a lot quicker. The bus is easier as well to get to the main centres around Pembrokeshire.

As I think it says in that article, one of the lead petitioners is from Molygrove. That is near Cardigan. Let's forget the car for a moment, and worry about those who do not have one. From Cardigan, hourly buses go to Carmarthen and Haverfordwest, and one bus every two hours to Aberaeron (with some trips extended to Aberystwyth, and the others having a connection for there). The Haverfordwest bus goes via Fishguard. Journey times are: Aberystwyth 1hr 30mins, Carmarthen 1hr 26mins, Haverfordwest 1hr 20mins, Fishguard 40mins (45mins to Fishguard & Goodwick station, but only on the 7am departure from Cardigan, have to use the Fishguard Town Service to get from Fishguard to the station the rest of the day). I think the train is 50mins from Fishguard to Carmarthen. That means anywhere on the route between Cardigan and Fishguard, except Cardigan itself, is quicker via the Fishguard train, and the bus from Cardigan to Carmarthen is only 11mins quicker than going via Fishguard. Total population of Fishguard and Goodwick, plus the places on the route from Cardigan to Fishguard, is at least 7140. As you say though they will have to be traveling to Carmarthen or onwards, my only worry is terminating the train at Carmarthen might loose too many of the passengers going onwards, making the service go through to Cardiff via the Swansea District Line would improve the loadings, and depending on the timing at Carmarthen in relation to the buses might get Cardigan passengers to board at Fishguard.

 

(Cardigan people according to the studies get the train at Carmarthen, I assume the parking is cheapest there )

Parking at Carmarthen station is very difficult. When we use the train we park at Whitland or Clunderwen.

[two tone green]

The population who will travel to support the service on a REGUALR basis is what? Be honest now, in your opinion of the estimated 7140 is of travelling age and who really would use it. Do consider the car as a high proportion of the population has a car.

 

Then there is the population who don't have cars, would they want to sit on a through service, bus, or change with the risk of delays and missing onward connections. Bus to train is terrible and to solve this you have to convince the trains competitors, the bus, to align their services. Not a very good idea when there are few people travelling any way and you are asking the buses to give up their passengers to the train, me thinks this wont happen as well.

 

Business case looking a bit thin already.

 

Do you know the age of the person from Molygrove by chance, I suspect they may well be of a reasonable age and wont be a regular users and could well have a travel card anyway.

 

And to do up the old station and not use the Harbour one will cost what, a good part of the grant possibly. Then have two stations in less than a mile, not clever. Business plan looking positively starved by now.

 

Then there is the impact on current services from Milford which will see a reduction of passengers due to the transfer of them to the Fishguard services, not very clever. The TOC will look to claw back costs some how and a reduction of services on the Milford line is the only way for that to happen.

 

It really does not add up. This is election stuff and nothing else.

[Rhydgaled]

The population who will travel to support the service on a REGUALR basis is what? Be honest now, in your opinion of the estimated 7140 is of travelling age and who really would use it. Do consider the car as a high proportion of the population has a car.

Regular basis? Very hard to say, I have no idea. However, going by 1,440 signatures (from the article) and the fact I only got into this whole thing by happening to stumble across a paper copy of the petition in a cafe in Fishguard (showing it wasn't that well advertised) I'd say at least 2,000 different individuals would use it at some point during the three years if they are made aware of the service.

 

Then there is the population who don't have cars, would they want to sit on a through service, bus, or change with the risk of delays and missing onward connections. Bus to train is terrible and to solve this you have to convince the trains competitors, the bus, to align their services. Not a very good idea when there are few people travelling any way and you are asking the buses to give up their passengers to the train, me thinks this wont happen as well.

I expect it would be in Richard Brothers' interest to make their Fishguard town service connect with the trains as it is in no way competing with the trains. Similarly there is no direct bus service from Fishguard to Carmarthen, at present you have to go to Haverfordwest and take a train or an infrequent bus (run by a different operator) from there. Most of the Cardigan - Haverfordwest services are funded (and therefore I guess specified) by the council anyway, so I'd hope they would tell Richards to make good connections. A train service from Fishguard to Haverfordwest however would be daft, as it would compete with the bus. That 7,140 does not include Cardigan, as I fully admitted it would be a little slower by bus plus train from Cardigan to Carmarthen and I would only expect passengers from Cardigan to use the Fishguard service if it extended as an express service to Cardiff and it's departure from Carmarthen did not tie up well with a bus arrival from Cardigan. People generally seem to be more likely to abandon their car for a train than a bus.

 

Do you know the age of the person from Molygrove by chance, I suspect they may well be of a reasonable age and wont be a regular users and could well have a travel card anyway.

Says in the article, he's now 17.

 

Then there is the impact on current services from Milford which will see a reduction of passengers due to the transfer of them to the Fishguard services, not very clever. The TOC will look to claw back costs some how and a reduction of services on the Milford line is the only way for that to happen.

 

It really does not add up. This is election stuff and nothing else.

Yes, the timing of this is obviously to do with the election. However SWWITCH ran a study some time ago and these extra Fishguard services have been high on their priority list since then, so there had been a positive business case identified.

[two tone green]

2000 over three years, not very good.

 

Fishguard town service, so that adds another change from bus to bus to train, gets better, not.

 

A train service from Fishguard to Haverfordwest would be daft you are right for more reasons than just competing with the bus.

 

So the one person is 17, not exactly a major player then in using the train.

 

And then there is the fares which are ever going up. One person travelling competes well with the car and I use the train to Cardiff when I can as it is a nice ride etc. But start to consider families and its gets expensive. Yes there are rail cards but families like the flexibility of the car.

 

Sorry but a business case can be made to look good in just about any situation. Reality is some what different. People sign things not really knowing what they are signing and yes they think its a good idea but have no intentions of ever really supporting the cause they have just signed up to support.

 

How is your campaign going to do up the station building in Dwig