Siren

[SZ]

Years ago, around 1970, BR blue with some maroon, I can remember a very distinct siren that used to sound on the railway, presumably to alert track workers of an oncoming train.

 

The notes were as follows, the 'mid' note being held for longer than the others

 

mid... high, low, mid... high, low, mid... (repeating)

 

I think it might have come from a grey lineside cabinet with a loudspeaker horn on top.

 

I've not heard it for decades, or seen those cabinets, but what was it?

 

Edited July 2, 2021 by SZ

[Not Captain Kernow]

That would be the Train Operated Warning System, or pee-wee as known by many staff.  When switched on it makes an intermittent sound so you know it is operating, changing to a continuous sound when a train is approaching.

Edited July 2, 2021 by Not Captain Kernow
smelling pistake

[iands]

I stand to be corrected, but I thought TOWS were introduced much later than 1970.

What the OP could be remembering was a system for calling either the Pway or S&T staff out on the track, what was referred to at York as the "cuckoo", a series of loud speakers strategically placed on signalling locs or in some cases on an arm of telegraph poles. If there was a fault that required immediate attention, the York SB Supervisor operated one of two keys on a panel, an interrupted single tone for the Pway, or a high-low tone (repeated) for the S&T. This was long before the advent of mobile phones or even pagers. 

No doubt other regions/areas had similar systems (I seem to recall one, on the LM possibly, in one of the BTF "modernisation films"). 

[The Stationmaster]

The WR system used a klaxon horn situated on either a relay room or in some cases by a group of location cupboards - they were also operated by a push button on the panel.  They were normally only used to call the S&T tecnicians

 

PS In the Slough Panel instruction book it is referred to as 'a horn to summon a Lineman' so presumably a single button operated all of them.  The Plymouth Panel instruction booklet states that the button was situated in the bottom right hand corner of the panel.

Edited July 3, 2021 by The Stationmaster
Add additional information

[Michael Hodgson]

Oh gawd - another irritating noise from the next stand at the model railway show!

[bécasse]

3 hours ago, Michael Hodgson said:

Oh gawd - another irritating noise from the next stand at the model railway show!

Make sure it is a Southern layout. The Southern Region was well aware of how annoying to nearby residents a sound-based system would be, so it installed light "stalks" on top of its S&T equipment cupboards which flashed to indicate that the lineman should ring the box. It could easily be reproduced in model form, probably even in N, using a very short length of fibre optic and a flashing bulb hidden in a model of an equipment box - and it wouldn't annoy nearby stand holders.

[SZ]

17 hours ago, iands said:

No doubt other regions/areas had similar systems (I seem to recall one, on the LM possibly, in one of the BTF "modernisation films"). 

 

Yes it was LMR so I'll have a look for that film, it would be good to hear it again.

 

I was wondering if I had imagined it all...

[iands]

44 minutes ago, SZ said:

 

Yes it was LMR so I'll have a look for that film, it would be good to hear it again.

 

I was wondering if I had imagined it all...

Just checked, and it is the BTF Volume 8 Points and Aspects Disc 1, "The Signal Engineers (1962)".

[Edwin_m]

There's been one of these on the up line at Grantham in recent years and it may still be there (last visit a couple of years ago due to Covid).   It seemed to be switched on a lot of the time when I've changed trains, though that could be because there were staff on the line further round the bend which was probably the reason it was provided.  It would emit a "safe tone" of a short warble every few seconds to prove it was still working, and a continuous warble if a train approached.  

[iands]

1 minute ago, Edwin_m said:

There's been one of these on the up line at Grantham in recent years and it may still be there (last visit a couple of years ago due to Covid).   It seemed to be switched on a lot of the time when I've changed trains, though that could be because there were staff on the line further round the bend which was probably the reason it was provided.  It would emit a "safe tone" of a short warble every few seconds to prove it was still working, and a continuous warble if a train approached.  

Yes, that's the TOWS.

I wonder why the original system acronym FATCOWS got changed? 

 

(For those that might be interested it was Fixed Automatic Track Circuit Operated Warning System)

[Not Captain Kernow]

We came very close to getting BR Business Systems to call their new combined train timing and diagramming system Totally Integrated Timing System.  It was a good 18 months in development before someone rumbled it and it was changed to Protim (Professional Timing).

[The Stationmaster]

28 minutes ago, iands said:

Yes, that's the TOWS.

I wonder why the original system acronym FATCOWS got changed? 

 

(For those that might be interested it was Fixed Automatic Track Circuit Operated Warning System)

I think FATCOWS might have been a rather more sophisticated (complicated?) system.  I know it was trialled immediately west of Wootton Bassett on the Badminton line for a period but was then taken out of use for some reason.

[The Stationmaster]

11 minutes ago, Not Captain Kernow said:

We came very close to getting BR Business Systems to call their new combined train timing and diagramming system Totally Integrated Timing System.  It was a good 18 months in development before someone rumbled it and it was changed to Protim (Professional Timing).

I think your suggestion was much better.  Mind you if you saw the SNCF THOR system for train timing you'd think Protim was the best thing since sliced bread

[PerthBox]

23 hours ago, iands said:

I stand to be corrected, but I thought TOWS were introduced much later than 1970.

What the OP could be remembering was a system for calling either the Pway or S&T staff out on the track, what was referred to at York as the "cuckoo", a series of loud speakers strategically placed on signalling locs or in some cases on an arm of telegraph poles. If there was a fault that required immediate attention, the York SB Supervisor operated one of two keys on a panel, an interrupted single tone for the Pway, or a high-low tone (repeated) for the S&T. This was long before the advent of mobile phones or even pagers. 

No doubt other regions/areas had similar systems (I seem to recall one, on the LM possibly, in one of the BTF "modernisation films"). 

Perth and Glasgow Central had it, also referred to here as the cuckoo. There are still a few locs with speakers on them dotted around Perth though the system itself is long dead. Of course if the cuckoo failed to summon the S&T then the next step was a phone call to the BRSA..

[Michael Hodgson]

5 hours ago, iands said:

Yes, that's the TOWS.

I wonder why the original system acronym FATCOWS got changed? 

 

(For those that might be interested it was Fixed Automatic Track Circuit Operated Warning System)

For the same reason that the Bank of England turned down one of the Staff Suggestion Scheme's proposals to call the back door used by security vans "Andrews' Rear Service Entrance"

 

Then there were the signal engineers who designed new equipment to lighten the workload in a busy box.  Management decided you couldn't put the word "equipment" after this ... 

https://www.witpress.com/Secure/elibrary/papers/CR14/CR14006FU1.pdf

 

[5BarVT]

19 hours ago, Michael Hodgson said:

Then there were the signal engineers who designed new equipment to lighten the workload in a busy box.  Management decided you couldn't put the word "equipment" after this ... 

Was it designed to give the signalman something to fall back on . . . 
:-)

Paul.

[Trog]

On 02/07/2021 at 20:57, SZ said:

Years ago, around 1970, BR blue with some maroon, I can remember a very distinct siren that used to sound on the railway, presumably to alert track workers of an oncoming train.

 

The notes were as follows, the 'mid' note being held for longer than the others

 

mid... high, low, mid... high, low, mid... (repeating)

 

I think it might have come from a grey lineside cabinet with a loudspeaker horn on top.

 

I've not heard it for decades, or seen those cabinets, but what was it?

 

 

Cuckoo it was triggered by the local signal box and there were three different tunes that could be played. Depending on which of the three Civil Engineering departments staff the Signalman wanted to walk to the nearest SPT and ring him. Was fitted to the south end of the WCML the system went out of use as more sophisticated communication systems came into use.

 

On the dodgy acronyms front I tried to get HQ interested in a version of the G44D sleeper with two grooves or ducts in the top surface as the track end cables that were supposed to be run in the duct usually came in at least pairs. But for some reason I could not get them to take the idea of a G44 double D seriously.

Edited July 9, 2021 by Trog
Spelling etc.

[The Stationmaster]

Great fun can be had with acronyms.  One of mine which stuck - although it never got into traffic - was SETHS = Supplementary Electric Train Heating Source which would have been a Class 73 on the back of a full length night sleeper train between Waterloo and the Tunnel.  Seems my understanding of electric 'hotel' loads was better than that of some other folk and the only way you could run the ETH load on a 16 coach ENS train was to have two electrically separate 'half trains' and the best way to get power to the back half was to use a Class 73 as its electrical pick up.

 

 A couple which never happened, although both got onto official drawings were in connection with various imported coal schemes.  Thus there were going to be stencil indicators on signals in one location showing 'KY' - not just in the hope that the job would go smoothly.  

 

The other one was 'Funny Name Junction' at Avonmouth for the entrance to the coal terminal and that stayed on several iterations of the scheme plan drawings until a friend in the S&T design office said his boss didn't like it.  So I came up with something equally ridiculous and called it Portbury Terminal Junction.  When I was asked at the staff consulation meeting why it was called that I replied that as it was on former GWR territory I had,  in accordance with GWR tradition, named it after a place it was nowhere bnear but had a connection to.  It still has that name - despite the fact that it isn't even a junction as you can only go into different roads in the yard.

[St. Simon]

On 03/07/2021 at 10:55, Michael Hodgson said:

Oh gawd - another irritating noise from the next stand at the model railway show!

 

You shouldn't have said that, I've just had a great little idea for the layout, a model TAWS, or at least a model worksite with lookouts... 

 

On 10/07/2021 at 11:47, The Stationmaster said:

Great fun can be had with acronyms.

 

I keep trying to get another job title of 'Rolling Stock Interface Specialist' (because of my vast experience with Power Change Over & ASDO!), just because it would be funny to be called an RSIS  

 

On 10/07/2021 at 11:47, The Stationmaster said:

The other one was 'Funny Name Junction' at Avonmouth for the entrance to the coal terminal and that stayed on several iterations of the scheme plan drawings until a friend in the S&T design office said his boss didn't like it. 

 

That friend still likes the story, it's always mentioned when we talk about junction names. My personal favourite was when we tried to call the Temporary Signal Box (read Portakabin) at Medstead on the Mid Hants the 'Meon Valley International Rail Operating Centre', funnily enough it didn't stick.

 

I did contemplate calling a junction next to a waste terminal on a very recent project "Smelly Sh*t Junction", but thought that wouldn't go down well!

 

Simon

Edited July 12, 2021 by St. Simon

[Michael Hodgson]

2 hours ago, St. Simon said:

I did contemplate calling a junction next to a waste terminal on a very recent project "Smelly Sh*t Junction", but thought that wouldn't go down well!

 

Simon

I know a signal box on a private railway that rejoices in the name of Cesspit Sidings.

[Edwin_m]

My favourite (former) box name was Vitriol Works.  

[puddin68]

I don't think the answers above answer the question about very distinct siren that used to sound on the railway presumably to alert track workers of an oncoming train or maybe of a signal failure?.

 

This for me was on the West Coast main line going through Willenhall on the up line to Coventry in the mid 1970s, coming from a grey signal cabinet with a loudspeaker siren on the top was a  very loud  "high, low, high, low" (repeating)  sound and this siren went on for hours and hours one Sunday afternoon.

 

I for one had not heard anything like it before but as I couldn't see anyone on the track and the signals were at red I automatically assumed that there was some sort of problem with the lights.

 

This was the one and only time I'd heard that siren and I remember it as a kid because I lived next to the track and played on that line for hours so you could say I was familiar with the line.

 

I've always wanted to know what that was actually for? as have other people, then sometime around the mid 80s the loudspeaker siren had disappeared from the top of the box.  I also remember it was around this time that the signal telephone had been replaced from the fixed type to a 3 pin plug in type so kids like me couldn't mess about with it.

 

So can anybody please get to the bottom of this loudspeaker siren that was on top of the grey signal cabinet box which you can just about see in the attached picture... Many Thanks.

 

 

 

 

 

[Edwin_m]

There was something very similar at Grantham station before lockdown when I changed trains there quite often, and it may still be there.  It was frequently switched on and would emit a short "safe tone" every 10s or so, then a high-low warbling when a train was approaching.  This is indeed a system to warn track workers.  The "safe tone" is to confirm it is still working.  

[St. Simon]

9 hours ago, puddin68 said:

I don't think the answers above answer the question about very distinct siren that used to sound on the railway presumably to alert track workers of an oncoming train or maybe of a signal failure?.

 

This for me was on the West Coast main line going through Willenhall on the up line to Coventry in the mid 1970s, coming from a grey signal cabinet with a loudspeaker siren on the top was a  very loud  "high, low, high, low" (repeating)  sound and this siren went on for hours and hours one Sunday afternoon.

 

I for one had not heard anything like it before but as I couldn't see anyone on the track and the signals were at red I automatically assumed that there was some sort of problem with the lights.

 

This was the one and only time I'd heard that siren and I remember it as a kid because I lived next to the track and played on that line for hours so you could say I was familiar with the line.

 

I've always wanted to know what that was actually for? as have other people, then sometime around the mid 80s the loudspeaker siren had disappeared from the top of the box.  I also remember it was around this time that the signal telephone had been replaced from the fixed type to a 3 pin plug in type so kids like me couldn't mess about with it.

 

So can anybody please get to the bottom of this loudspeaker siren that was on top of the grey signal cabinet box which you can just about see in the attached picture... Many Thanks.

 

Hi,

 

I know that there was a system that used sirens that a signalling centre could use to alert any technicians that the signalling centre wanted to talk to them about a fault. I believe these were mounted on Relay Rooms or Loc Cases.

 

See here at 08:35:

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jTkf5dL1AwU

 

3 hours ago, Edwin_m said:

There was something very similar at Grantham station before lockdown when I changed trains there quite often, and it may still be there.  It was frequently switched on and would emit a short "safe tone" every 10s or so, then a high-low warbling when a train was approaching.  This is indeed a system to warn track workers.  The "safe tone" is to confirm it is still working.  

 

Edwin, that would be a Train Operated Warning System (TOWS), there is also the Lockout Operated Warning System (LOWS), and now the Semi-Automatic Warning System (SAWS). There was also the Inductive Loop Warning System (ILWS):

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BD18I5s3Nh8

 

Simon

[Edwin_m]

1 hour ago, St. Simon said:

Edwin, that would be a Train Operated Warning System (TOWS), there is also the Lockout Operated Warning System (LOWS), and now the Semi-Automatic Warning System (SAWS). There was also the Inductive Loop Warning System (ILWS):

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BD18I5s3Nh8

 

Simon

Indeed.  I'm vaguely familiar with these systems but not enough to say which one it was.  The ILWS team were colleagues of mine for a while (including older versions of several of those appearing on that video) and I can confirm it was never deployed other than for trials.