Electric, Hybrid and Alternative fuelled vehicles - News and Discussion

[Nick C]

34 minutes ago, jonny777 said:

 

This kind of stuff is how the Daily Mail and its right wing associates try to panic the nation into a continued support for the fossil fuel industry. They also rubbish wind turbines on a regular basis. 

Yes and No.

 

Of course it's not an excuse to rubbish EVs etc, but it is certainly something that needs to be thought about - our national grid was designed based on usage patterns in the 1960s - and much of it, particularly the 'last mile', is, I'm told, somewhat creaking at the seams -Usage patterns have changed significiantly since then, and we're using a lot more power than we did, plus a lot of the kit is aging.

 

It's therefore likely that a lot of the street-corner substations will need to be upgraded or replaced to cope with everyone all wanting to charge at once - and there's a risk that will turn into a political football, with everyone involved wanting someone else to pay for it...

[Ron Ron Ron]

It’s rather odd that while these various people keep saying there’ll be a problem with the grid being able to cope, the people who actually represent and run the grid, say the opposite.

Who do you believe, the naysayers or the professionals who are actually planning for our future needs?

 

 

.

[jonny777]

11 minutes ago, Nick C said:

Yes and No.

 

Of course it's not an excuse to rubbish EVs etc, but it is certainly something that needs to be thought about - our national grid was designed based on usage patterns in the 1960s - and much of it, particularly the 'last mile', is, I'm told, somewhat creaking at the seams -Usage patterns have changed significiantly since then, and we're using a lot more power than we did, plus a lot of the kit is aging.

 

It's therefore likely that a lot of the street-corner substations will need to be upgraded or replaced to cope with everyone all wanting to charge at once - and there's a risk that will turn into a political football, with everyone involved wanting someone else to pay for it...

 

I find this explanation difficult to believe, because in the 1960s and 70s many homes were newly fitted with electric storage heaters which ran on cheaper *white meter* electricity. One of the main principles of this was to even out electricity demand off peak, especially overnight when demand typically dropped by 50% or more compared with the daytime. 

 

I would have thought that consumers charging EVs overnight would have a similar result; and I am sure it is a subject that the power supply companies have under control. When I was working, we had regular formal and informal meetings with the chaps from grid control, and they would always inform us that it was the unpredictable 'spikes' which caused problems across the network.

 

They would quote a summer afternoon (many years ago now) when a very large group of heavy thunderstorms drifted over Greater London. The net result of the sudden darkening skies caused most office and home workers to switch on lights, and many of the street lights came on for the same reason. These were the events they would worry about. 

[Nick C]

8 minutes ago, Ron Ron Ron said:

It’s rather odd that while these various people keep saying there’ll be a problem with the grid being able to cope, the people who actually represent and run the grid, say the opposite.

Who do you believe, the naysayers or the professionals who are actually planning for our future needs?

The person who told me the above was a professor of Electrical Engineering who had been working for the CEGB/National Grid research lab before returning to academia, so 'both'. He was somewhat adament that the grid would need a lot of investment, not just becuase of EVs, but even to keep going with the status quo.

[Ron Ron Ron]

2 hours ago, Nick C said:

......He was somewhat adament that the grid would need a lot of investment, not just becuase of EVs, but even to keep going with the status quo.

 

It's widely accepted that the grid require a lot investment, just to keep pace with current (no pun) and future requirements, as well as transitioning to more renewables.

Factor in the decommissioning of the old nuclear plants and the few remaining coal fired power stations too.

This is all without worrying about electric vehicles.

[Guest]

This is interesting. Power and lithium from the same hole in the ground in Cornwall. 

 

https://www.euractiv.com/section/energy/news/game-changer-for-geothermal-energy-as-uk-plant-unlocks-vast-supply-of-lithium/

[Ron Ron Ron]

Fully Charged recently visited the Eden Project to look at the deep geothermal power project being carried out there.

This may be the same people, in that article.

 

 

.

[APOLLO]

4 hours ago, 30801 said:

This is interesting. Power and lithium from the same hole in the ground in Cornwall. 

 

https://www.euractiv.com/section/energy/news/game-changer-for-geothermal-energy-as-uk-plant-unlocks-vast-supply-of-lithium/

 

Wot no pasties ? (The have jam butty mines in Liverpool according to Ken Dodd !!).

 

Brit15

Edited September 1, 2021 by APOLLO

[Ron Ron Ron]

I went to the first day of the Fully Charged Live Outside event, at Farnborough, yesterday.

Lots of interesting stuff, including loads of EV's to look at, sit in and even test drive, if you were lucky enough to get a slot before they were all booked up.

 

The first Tesla Model Y to make it to the UK, was there. Courtesy of a German chap, who had driven it over for the show.

(note: the car is now on sale in Germany and a couple of other European countries, but not yet in the UK)

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I very much liked this.....

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

...and this......

 

 

 

In all, around 40 different makes and models of electric car, plus a couple of dozen different makes and model of electric vans.

 

 

 

 

.

Edited September 4, 2021 by Ron Ron Ron

[Ron Ron Ron]

One of the most impressive EV's at the show, was the Nissan Ariya.

Quite a bold and stunning design and from what I could see, the interior quality is really up there with other premium cars.

Nobody was allowed inside it though, as they said this pre-production example and one of only 3 cars outside of Japan at the moment.

 

By contrast, the interior of the Audi Q4 e-tron (the Audi version of the VW ID 4 and Skoda Enyaq) is decidedly low rent in places, with lots of interior bits being cheap and basic, particularly the inside of the doors, with hard plastics, a rough plastic door pull/armrest and unlined door pockets in hard plastic.

Audi and VW interiors are now where the Koreans were about ten or fifteen years ago, whilst the Koreans have upped their game considerably..

 

Unfortunately, the Ariya was very difficult to photograph, as it was quite dark, cramped and crowded inside the Nissan stand.

After several shots on my ropey old iPhone 7, I can only offer these poor efforts........

 

(note: the photos don't do this car any justice at all. It really is a very attractive looking car).

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

.

Edited September 4, 2021 by Ron Ron Ron

[Ron Ron Ron]

Hyundai Nexo.

One of only two Hydrogen fuel-cell passenger cars in production and on open sale.

 

 

 

 

 

 

.

Edited September 4, 2021 by Ron Ron Ron

[Monkersson]

I thought I'd share this here...

 

Today I was out looking for ideas for a new car, Im open minded regarding EVs/Hybrids etc.

 

In a Ford garage I was having a look at the Mustang Mach-E (well out of my price range I may add).  Great looking car I think, the salesman told me that they haven't had a single test drive, request never mind orders.  Can't get enough ICE Mustangs to meet demand though! 

 

He was also saying that the EcoBoost Mild Hybrid Puma and Fiesta are selling really well, and sales are picking up for the PHEV Kuga.

 

 

[Ron Ron Ron]

8 minutes ago, Monkersson said:

.....In a Ford garage I was having a look at the Mustang Mach-E (well out of my price range I may add).  Great looking car I think, the salesman told me that they haven't had a single test drive, request never mind orders.  Can't get enough ICE Mustangs to meet demand though! ....

 

I guess it'll will probably depend where you are.

One of my neighbours booked a test drive and bagged the car for half a day.

He had to wait for the car to be available as demand for test drives was quite strong apparently.

He said he was lucky to get it for a few hours.

At Fully Charged Live yesterday, there was a long queue for all the test drives, including the Mach-E.

 

.

[Fenman]

11 hours ago, Monkersson said:

I thought I'd share this here...

 

Today I was out looking for ideas for a new car, Im open minded regarding EVs/Hybrids etc.

 

In a Ford garage I was having a look at the Mustang Mach-E (well out of my price range I may add).  Great looking car I think, the salesman told me that they haven't had a single test drive, request never mind orders.  Can't get enough ICE Mustangs to meet demand though! 

 

He was also saying that the EcoBoost Mild Hybrid Puma and Fiesta are selling really well, and sales are picking up for the PHEV Kuga.

 

 

In the local Hyundai dealer here a couple of weeks ago: it took a few days before I could get a slot for a test drive in the Ioniq 5.

 

I loved it and placed an order.
 

The salesman commented that was the fifth one he’d sold in the last week. This is not in the posh south. 
 

The Mustang has had pretty decent reviews but it’s trading on the heritage of the boy-racer “muscle car” brand. The Ioniq 5 is aimed at those of us who lived through the 80s and have both the nostalgia and enough disposable income, as well as liking higher driving positions and probably having a dog or two. As an old fart myself, the Mustang made me wince whereas the Ioniq 5 made me smile. 
 

YMMV, and almost certainly will. 
 

Paul

[Dunsignalling]

5 hours ago, Coombe Vale said:

My concern with electric cars are two-fold. Firstly, the length of time it takes to recharge the battery. Apart from the inevitable queues as people have to wait for previous vehicles to move off, particularly on motorways, by the time you have recharged your car you will have added heaven knows how much time to your journey. Secondly, the limited range a fully charged car has. I've seen car adverts "boasting" of up to 260 miles on a single charge. Big deal! I have often got in excess of 1000 miles from a full tank in my Volvo V70 2.5 diesel. I live in the south of England with family in the north. How many times will I have to stop to recharge and how much longer will my journey take? Electric vehicles have their place. Great for running around a city or for people who drive only short distances, but totally unsuitable for long hauls.

Yes, and at motorway speeds, the advertised range commonly drops by about a third.

 

Battery-electric cars are an answer, but I've never thought them to be the only answer, and the range factor will continue to rule them out for many motorists with non-urban travel habits. Putting enough batteries into one to enable even a (motorway) range of 400 miles (which would get me on board, affordability etc. permitting) would increase the weight so much as to ruin their short-range efficiency.

 

Multiple charging stops, and probable queuing for charging facilities, provision of which is always likely to lag demand (cynical, moi?) , will also incur overnight hotel bills in many journeys, not to mention losing two days at ones destination.

 

There needs to be another propulsion system for those who cover long-distances regularly, and in hire cars for those who only do so occasionally, with battery cars being sufficient most of the time.

 

The evident option, at present, seems to be the hydrogen fuel cell, and refuelling for these will hopefully become more widely available over time.

 

I am of an age that I consider that my next (which isn't likely for at least five years), or next-but-one car purchase could conceivably be my last. I don't envisage battery cars advancing enough, or fuel cells taking a big enough share of the market, in that timescale, to prevent the successor to my current turbo-diesel being other than a ICE-hybrid unless my personal requirements change in the meantime.

 

John

 

 

 

Edited September 5, 2021 by Dunsignalling

[Ron Ron Ron]

9 hours ago, Coombe Vale said:

My concern with electric cars are two-fold. Firstly, the length of time it takes to recharge the battery. Apart from the inevitable queues as people have to wait for previous vehicles to move off, particularly on motorways, by the time you have recharged your car you will have added heaven knows how much time to your journey. Secondly, the limited range a fully charged car has. I've seen car adverts "boasting" of up to 260 miles on a single charge. Big deal! I have often got in excess of 1000 miles from a full tank in my Volvo V70 2.5 diesel. I live in the south of England with family in the north. How many times will I have to stop to recharge and how much longer will my journey take? Electric vehicles have their place. Great for running around a city or for people who drive only short distances, but totally unsuitable for long hauls.

Ask those who have an EV and don’t have problems with this.

They say those concerns only exist in the minds of people who don’t yet own an EV.

 

The vast majority of car journeys made and the majority of users, don’t need those sort of ranges.

For those that regularly do high mileage trips, the time may not have arrived for them to switch, but for the majority of the driving population, 200-250 miles will be more than a weeks motoring.

 

Charging time?

If you have off road parking (drive or garage), which by all accounts covers 60% of owners, then charging time will be less than one or two minutes. Think about it.

The average car is idle and not in use for more than 90% of the time.

Clearly there will be issues to be addressed for that 40% who don’t have access to home charging facilities, but there appears to be various efforts being made to address this, with a variety of possible solutions.

 

On a long trip, how far do you drive before taking a break?

When you do stop, the concept of recharging isn’t the same as refilling an ICE vehicle. You don’t always need to do a complete charge.

Also the number of chargers at places like motorway services, will continue to increase, with existing older chargers being replaced with newer ones with much higher charging capacity.

Combine that with the newer EV’s having faster charging capacity and the problem of time goes away.

10, 15 or 20 minutes, time to visit the facilities and take a break, will be all you need to complete your journey with enough of a reserve.

 

I spoke with a Tesla Model 3 owner the other day, who lives in the midlands.

He said, unless travelling to Scotland, there’s nowhere in the UK that he cannot comfortably reach on a full charge, or even 80% charge.

Return journeys will need a charge at the destination, or just one stop on either the outbound or return journey.

He also said range and recharging was a concern when he bought the car, but it has turned out to be a complete non- issue.

 

I also regularly make a journey from the English south coast to the north of England.

Many, if not most of the EV’s I’m considering, are capable of doing the 230 mile journey, even in a cold winter, although I would have to keep well within the legal speed limit with so much motorway driving.

I have often done the journey without stopping, but it isn’t wise to do this and a mid journey stop is really necessary, even if it’s simply to have a break, stretch your legs and have a short rest. 
The service areas on this trip are plentiful and charging facilities at some are very well provided for today, never mind in the future, when massively more charging points will be available.

I have given this journey much consideration with regard to switching to an EV.

I reckon, even without recharging facilities at my northern destination (parent’s home), I could at a push, complete the return journey on one recharge, either near the destination on the way up, or having set off on the return; but more practically and considering the less efficient motorway speeds, I would make a mid journey stop on both trips. Which I normally do anyway.

 

.

 

Edited September 5, 2021 by Ron Ron Ron

[Fenman]

5 hours ago, Coombe Vale said:

My concern with electric cars are two-fold. Firstly, the length of time it takes to recharge the battery. Apart from the inevitable queues as people have to wait for previous vehicles to move off, particularly on motorways, by the time you have recharged your car you will have added heaven knows how much time to your journey. Secondly, the limited range a fully charged car has. I've seen car adverts "boasting" of up to 260 miles on a single charge. Big deal! I have often got in excess of 1000 miles from a full tank in my Volvo V70 2.5 diesel. I live in the south of England with family in the north. How many times will I have to stop to recharge and how much longer will my journey take? Electric vehicles have their place. Great for running around a city or for people who drive only short distances, but totally unsuitable for long hauls.

10-80% recharge in 18 minutes in an Ioniq 5. Admittedly it has 800v architecture unlike most EVs, but it will be the first of many sharing this ability to get mega-fast charging.

 

The case you cite — of cars at motorway services just blocking chargers — seems to me to be very unlikely: who spends hours whiling away their day at motorway services? 
 

To me, your comparison of ranges is absurd: what percentage of the population drives 1,000 miles without a break? I’m an old man now and I’d stop, at most, every couple of hours. Even at v-max, 70mph x 2 =140 miles. 
 

You may have seen adverts boasting of only 260 miles, but ranges continue to grow: 300 miles is now the new normal for the big battery versions of the mid-rank cars (Mustang, ID3 and 4, Ioniq 5, EV6); 400+ miles is now appearing (big battery versions of Tesla, Mercedes, Polestar) and more will follow: next generation Tesla and Mercedes (and others) are citing 500+ mile ranges.

 

I think those are unnecessary for most use cases, and actually worse for many (no-one should be dragging around too many heavy batteries if they don’t need to). But there’s so much range anxiety that maybe people do need them to overcome their terrors of being stranded?

 

Paul

[Monkersson]

38 minutes ago, Fenman said:

In the local Hyundai dealer here a couple of weeks ago: it took a few days before I could get a slot for a test drive in the Ioniq 5.

 

I loved it and placed an order.
 

The salesman commented that was the fifth one he’d sold in the last week. This is not in the posh south. 
 

The Mustang has had pretty decent reviews but it’s trading on the heritage of the boy-racer “muscle car” brand. The Ioniq 5 is aimed at those of us who lived through the 80s and have both the nostalgia and enough disposable income, as well as liking higher driving positions and probably having a dog or two. As an old fart myself, the Mustang made me wince whereas the Ioniq 5 made me smile. 
 

YMMV, and almost certainly will. 
 

Paul

I visited a Hyundai dealer in my search as I wanted to see the Ioniq 5, none available to view in the public areas which was most disappointing.  I found the Toyota dealership to be the most pro-active with hybrid/electric cars, properly showcasing them.

 

I was visiting dealerships in the wider Edinburgh area.

 

One of the problems in places I travel to regularly (Lanarkshire) is the amount of broken chargers that just don't get repaired.  Close to my place of work there is a council operated car-park that has a few chargers, all have been out of service for at least 3 months, despite that council using a fair few electric vehicles in their fleet, and despite the chargeplacecotland website saying they are available and working!

 

I think this massively contributes to range anxiety.  A fully electric car would suit me as I do less than 150 miles a week on average, at the moment I cant justify the cost.

Edited September 5, 2021 by Monkersson

[idd15]

I lease my Nissan Leaf and quite like it for the following reasons:

EV’s are rapidly evolving. It is only in the last year that 100k charging has become commonplace so the Leaf is “out of date” in that respect.

Fixed known monthly payment. 

I’m not using a very large lump of my capital.

If financial circumstances change I can hand the keys back and walk away.

Residual values are not so much of an “issue”.

 

Very important to shop around though AND the deposit is NOT a deposit, you might not have value in the vehicle at the end. Just like buying a car though timing is critical to get a good deal.

 

There is a lease company that does fully expensed leases for periods as short as a month which may be useful if you want to try before buy.

 

Leasing is probably not for everyone but so far it has worked for me and has allowed me to drive an EV. Cannot stress enough though to shop around…

 

idd

[idd15]

The short term leasing/rental/ subscription company information.

 

Onto

[Ron Ron Ron]

Black and decker boy’s response may be a bit harsh, but his points are entirely correct.

 

Whatever your opinions are, whether you like it or not, or whatever misguided notions you may hold, ICE powered cars are going to be phased out, period.

In terms of legislation, there will firstly be the ban on the sales of new ICE cars in the UK, in less than 9 years time and then gradually with various mechanisms to disincentivize ownership, which will possibly include a total ban at some future point.

 

The motor manufacturing industry is pumping literally billions and billions of $$$$€€€€€££££ into development and production of EV’s.

Vast new factories are being built and opened across the world and existing plants are being converted to facilitate mass production on a huge scale.

R&D and production for ICE vehicles is now slowing to a complete halt, with many manufacturers stating that they are no longer investing money into their production and are drastically reducing or completely ending all ICE production by set dates.

The component manufacturers are also shifting their entire focus in this direction too. At some point, making spare parts for ICE vehicles, will become less attractive or even unviable for them.

 

Battery technology is one of the most heavily invested fields of research going on in the world.

Again with billions of $$$$ being plowed in to develop more efficient, lighter, “greener” and cheaper battery formulations, such as the various solid state batteries under development.

 

The cars will become more efficient, driving ranges will increase, the cars will become lighter and costs will gradually reduce.

It’s almost inevitable.

 

There will soon be the first waves of EV’s coming off leases and PCP’s and entering the used market.

That used market will grow significantly over the next decade.

 

For the average motorist, the switch to EV is about timing and affordability.

More and more people will reach the right point to switch, over the coming decade.

It might not be the right time for many of us right now, or they may be unaffordable, but it will not stay like that.

 

 

.

Edited September 5, 2021 by Ron Ron Ron

[Ron Ron Ron]

8 minutes ago, idd15 said:

The short term leasing/rental/ subscription company information.

 

Onto

I had a chat with Onto at Fully Charged Live.

It’s an attractive offering, but the monthly costs are way too high in my estimation.

 

A Renault Zoe worked out at around £370 pm, which means that you have to consider if insurance, maintenance, replaceables like tyres etc, plus tax and included free charging, is worth £200 pm.

Mind you, no deposit and no upfront or end of contract costs will be attractive to many.

 

An ordinary Personal Lease ( not to be confused with a PCP, which something entirely different), can work out quite cost effective, particularly if you need a reliable car.

No depreciation and no residual value to worry about. You just don’t need to worry about it.

 

.

Edited September 5, 2021 by Ron Ron Ron

[black and decker boy]

A good tour report has appeared on LinkedIn 

 

Gwyn Roberts

[APOLLO]

Went to the local garden centre the other day, crossing over the M6 junction at Standish (Jcn 27) just north of Wigan is a large petrol filling station 100 yards to the left (going north) so very handy for the M6. I noticed work going on installing quite a few charge points. So infrastructure is going in.

 

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@53.5904879,-2.6950072,17.23z

 

My son works in Poole and comes "home" to Wigan regularly. A 260 mile journey one way. He has a good car for this, a Hyundai i30 diesel, over 50mpg with all the electronic toys. The journey is a bit "iffy" for most electric cars today. He's thinking of changing, another diesel and certainly not all electric. As he says probably his last chance to get a new "proper" car (his words) before everything is electric, controlled and "boring". He's looking at Audis, BMW's etc (typical daft lad) !!. 

 

As for myself, I just mainly pootle around locally these days, Lancaster / Lake district (60 miles) being about the farthest I go, an electric car would be ideal. But I'm not buying one, far too expensive and the depreciation seems horrific. Second hand EV's are an unknown. I like to buy cars around £3000 & keep them for a couple of years or so (as do many, many other people) so depreciation is not a concern (£1000 / year is reasonable and affordable to me) - Can't do this with EV.s.

 

A LOT of people are just going to be priced off the road in the coming years with very poor or non existent public transport alternatives - and these people (nurses, office workers etc etc) keep the country running. A new social breed is looming, the haves (EV) and have not's (Shanks Pony) !!

 

I'll keep my old Rover 3.5 litre V8 running as long as there is fuel, winding up the Greeta followers and depleting the oilfields of Saudi Arabia !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

Brit15

[Ron Ron Ron]

17 minutes ago, APOLLO said:

......As he says probably his last chance to get a new "proper" car (his words) before everything is electric, controlled and "boring". ......

 

Boring?

Not from the accounts of many motoring journalists, especially those who are familiar with and fans of performance cars.

Some EV's will be "boring" in the "sporty driving" sense, but so are probably two thirds of all regular ICE cars.

Whats the difference?

 

Find a motoring journalist who would call a Porsche Taycan or an Audi e-tron GT boring?

Also, the car manufacturers are planning to replace the likes of the "hot hatch" etc, with performance EV equivalents.

Boy racers need not worry.

Most EV's will burn off the boy racer in his Golf GTi or 2nd hand 3 Series at the lights.

 

Take a look at the YouTube guy who has posted videos of his newly acquired Tesla Model S Plaid.

0-60 in 1.99 seconds?

He has spent the last few weeks at the drag strip, completely burning off every hot rodded dragster, supercar and muscle car that he's gone against...in a regular, not special prepared, non-modified, ordinary street legal, off the shelf Tesla.

Boring?

 

 

.