Electric, Hybrid and Alternative fuelled vehicles - News and Discussion

[BR traction instructor]

A cautionary tale from yesterday about aiming for cheaper/limited bay public charging points in large conurbations at busy times. We had a family birthday to attend nr Halifax and drove Silloth to Brighouse Lidl to collect a card etc, charge car before attending the event, ready for a return journey through the scenery. We had plan B, C and D for different charge points/times just in case we couldn’t get onto the charge point there. The Lidl car park was heaving but by sheer dint of coincidence we drove straight onto one of the two Podpoint charging bays as another car left at exactly the right moment. Dawn went to do the shopping whilst I quickly got the charger plugged in and operating. Two more electric cars arrived within minutes but the owner of the Zoe in the other charging bay, despite having already unplugged her charged car, engaged in conversation with one of those drivers waiting, leaving the Zoe in the charge bay. Ten minutes were wasted and it was the intervention of the other EV driver waiting with an E Corsa that got the Zoe driver to move her car. The Zoe driver made way for the Hyundai EV driver that she had been chatting to. This couple had a screaming baby to deal with and were struggling to get the charger to work. They had only collected the Hyundai a few days previously and had had no instruction on how to maximise range etc, had just driven from Blackpool and couldn’t understand where the range had gone. For some reason the car and charger wouldn’t configure despite three attempts at starting again. The husband yelling at his wife that she should know how each different charger set up worked, the baby still howling and the wife getting visibly more stressed by the moment. They left without charging the car, the husband vowing to get rid of the EV car. One trick that I’ve already found useful is carrying a can of WD40 in the car and giving the terminals of any reluctant charger a squirt, so did so before the E Corsa driver got into position. No guarantee that the WD40 helped but the charger configured instantly with his car and calm returned to the charge point. Lessons to be learned from the Hyundai EV chaos were: don’t delay the departure of charged cars by engaging in conversation before they’ve vacated the bay; make sure that you know how to maximise range with a new car by learning how to switch off what isn’t required/choose most efficient settings; as a couple learn how each different public charge point operates by taking turns to carry out a charge sequence; remove a howling baby from the equation by having the one not doing the charging take the pushchair etc away from the charge point, allowing the other to concentrate; aim for multiple charge point installations in quieter areas to give yourself more time/space to learn about their configuration etc, rather than just focus on price; carry a can of WD40…just in case.

 

 

£13 approx for yesterday’s 260 mile plus journey.

 

BeRTIe

Edited September 5, 2022 by BR traction instructor

[Hobby]

13 hours ago, 30801 said:

But what if I want to tow a caravan from Scotland to Germany?

 

Well at least it's honest, I've driven from Birmingham to southern Germany many times and I'm afraid that video shows just why long journeys aren't, currently, the forte of EVs. Some people might find it acceptable to spend stops every hour or so to top up but that's not my idea of a good long journey. For example, from Kiddy we drive straight down to the tunnel in one go (3 to 4hrs dependent on the M25), then use the tunnel, have a break at the tunnel's waiting area, fill up at the cheap garage the other side and 1.5 hours to Belgium for an o/n and wander round some nice town. Onwards next morning for 2.5/3.5hrs to somewhere in Germany and stop for lunch. The same in the afternoon and o/n somewhere like Heidleburg (sp!), fill up at night and same next day. Relaxing 3 day trip to south of Munich. In the old days I could do that lot in 1.5 days! OK, not towing a caravan so with a car wit a real range of around 3hrs it would be possible, but I only have to fill up twice and don't have to worry about finding chargers.

 

His description of the journey really worries me if people feel that that is the acceptable face of future long distance motoring. Yes it can be done, but I wouldn't regard it as the relaxing time I have at the moment of long journeys, EV's days will come but they still have some way to go, hybrids for me for the time being.

[Metr0Land]

5 hours ago, BR traction instructor said:

 

£13 approx for yesterday’s 260 mile plus journey.

 

BeRTIe

 

That's a good price for public charging.  I have an MHEV with a PHEV on order (no way I'd go full EV in west Wales) so have been looking at public chargers in anticipation.  Unless I'm very much mistaken they all cost more than petrol in terms of p per mile, even before the Oct price hike.

[Metr0Land]

1 hour ago, Hobby said:

 

His description of the journey really worries me if people feel that that is the acceptable face of future long distance motoring. Yes it can be done, but I wouldn't regard it as the relaxing time I have at the moment of long journeys, EV's days will come but they still have some way to go, hybrids for me for the time being.

 

A couple of things worried me about the call at Gretna Green so must admit I didn't watch much more.  When he arrived at GG the panel said he'd been getting 1.8mile/kWh, which unless he'd been getting home charging free from solar or ridiculously low price, would have been dearer per mile than petrol?

 

When he arrived at GG he had 28pct battery remaining.  I don't think he told us total charging time at GG - apols if I missed it.  When he returned to the car it was 40pct full with 11 mins remaining to get to 80pct full  ie 11mins to get 37pct in the tank.  "Wow this is the way it should be".  With my MHEV a 10min stop including queuing and paying gets me say 90pct charge (I never go too low) and gives me 650+ mile range. THIS is the way it should be, and fortunately  for the forseeable future is.

[BR traction instructor]

On 05/09/2022 at 10:10, Metr0Land said:

 

That's a good price for public charging.  I have an MHEV with a PHEV on order (no way I'd go full EV in west Wales) so have been looking at public chargers in anticipation.  Unless I'm very much mistaken they all cost more than petrol in terms of p per mile, even before the Oct price hike.

 

…the bulk was 91% charge from home in Silloth at 14p per kWh. Brighouse at 130 miles approx away was 28p per kWh (Lidl price) back up to 85% from 30%. Budget EV travel is easy if you have a 7kWh home charger on a decent tariff and plan your journey charge wise…just be prepared to top up at 50p + per kWh if you’re heading for a large conurbation/busy area and need to seek an available charger nearby.

 

Our nearest rapid public charger to Silloth is around 40 miles away in Carlisle which makes the home charger very important.

 

BeRTIe

Edited September 8, 2022 by BR traction instructor

[idd15]

1 hour ago, Metr0Land said:

 

A couple of things worried me about the call at Gretna Green so must admit I didn't watch much more.  When he arrived at GG the panel said he'd been getting 1.8mile/kWh, which unless he'd been getting home charging free from solar or ridiculously low price, would have been dearer per mile than petrol?

 

When he arrived at GG he had 28pct battery remaining.  I don't think he told us total charging time at GG - apols if I missed it.  When he returned to the car it was 40pct full with 11 mins remaining to get to 80pct full  ie 11mins to get 37pct in the tank.  "Wow this is the way it should be".  With my MHEV a 10min stop including queuing and paying gets me say 90pct charge (I never go too low) and gives me 650+ mile range. THIS is the way it should be, and fortunately  for the forseeable future is.

Your not comparing like with like. He was towing 1.5 tonnes with the aerodynamics of a  brick and getting about 70mpg. I think that is pretty darn good. What would the equivalent diesel SUV towing 1.5 tonnes get mpg wise?

 

I suggest you watch to the end of the video, where he does a near like for like comparison with his previous diesel and a detailed breakdown of all the costs.

 

"and gives me 650+ mile range" Wow, respect to your kidneys! 😀

 

idd

 

[idd15]

2 hours ago, Hobby said:

 

Well at least it's honest, I've driven from Birmingham to southern Germany many times and I'm afraid that video shows just why long journeys aren't, currently, the forte of EVs. Some people might find it acceptable to spend stops every hour or so to top up but that's not my idea of a good long journey.

 

His description of the journey really worries me if people feel that that is the acceptable face of future long distance motoring. Yes it can be done, but I wouldn't regard it as the relaxing time I have at the moment of long journeys, EV's days will come but they still have some way to go, hybrids for me for the time being.

He was towing a dirty great big caravan, towing eats energy whether its electrons or dino juice. If the Kia had not been towing it would in all probability do exactly what you think you can achieve with a fossil equivalent.

 

The whole point, as he was also at pains to point out, is that while the car is charging you do something else. Get your head around that and long journey times are not an issue. I speak as someone who does regular road trips in an EV with 135 miles practical range and a max charging speed of 50Kwhr.

 

"hybrids for me for the time being." That's good, you've kicked a hole in your in your emissions and running costs, be happy.

 

idd

 

[Hobby]

I used to get 50+ mpg towing a much less aerodynamic 15' caravan ... Maestro Clubman D (non turbo) with an Eccles Amythyst, and I didn't drive slowly with it to get that mpg either!

 

Regards distance, I do have stops, but they aren't enforced stops which are much more often than I would do with an EV and I don't have to worry about having to find a charging point that's either working or free. I think it's all about getting into a different mindset, but I think it's a backward step that we are asking people to accept limitations and then playing them down.

[Hobby]

2 hours ago, idd15 said:

He was towing a dirty great big caravan, towing eats energy whether its electrons or dino juice. If the Kia had not been towing it would in all probability do exactly what you think you can achieve with a fossil equivalent.

 

The whole point, as he was also at pains to point out, is that while the car is charging you do something else. Get your head around that and long journey times are not an issue. I speak as someone who does regular road trips in an EV with 135 miles practical range and a max charging speed of 50Kwhr.

 

"hybrids for me for the time being." That's good, you've kicked a hole in your in your emissions and running costs, be happy.

 

idd

 

 

Wow, that's ultra defensive!! I appreciate he's towing, but even towing I didn't have to stop so often. It's about mindsets and the current technology, whilst you find it acceptable I don't see why the rest of us should have to accept it just because you do. Hence my comments about PHEVs, I am prepared to accept the compromise, you aren't, be happy!

Edited September 5, 2022 by Hobby

[Guest]

7 hours ago, Metr0Land said:

 

A couple of things worried me about the call at Gretna Green so must admit I didn't watch much more.  When he arrived at GG the panel said he'd been getting 1.8mile/kWh, which unless he'd been getting home charging free from solar or ridiculously low price, would have been dearer per mile than petrol?

 

Without the caravan that would be over 3 miles/kWh and of course in an ICE he'd also be burning more fuel while towing. 

However I notice the electricity prices he was quoting are looking pretty cheap compared to what I've seen lately. Prices nudging 70p/kWh seem to be where it's at now.

[idd15]

Be interesting to see if the much touted energy plan due later this week will also help address the rising costs of public charging. Given the reported "green credentials" and what has been said at the hustings by the new incumbent at No10 I cannot say I am optimistic about this.

 

idd

[Fenman]

21 hours ago, Hobby said:

…

His description of the journey really worries me if people feel that that is the acceptable face of future long distance motoring.

…

My guess is that there is no mass-market future for long distance [leisure] motoring.
 

And, of course, such things are already minority interests when the majority of the population drives less than 1,000 miles a month and never takes their car out of the UK.

 

In a world where many (most?) people will already struggle to heat their homes and have enough to eat, and where a third of Pakistan is under flood-water as a result of weather events that seem linked to climate change (the legacy of us all burning fossil fuels without a care in the world), to take just two examples — whether or not someone has to make a couple of extra stops while towing a massive caravan from one part of Europe to another doesn’t seem terribly important. Though I realise individual behaviour change is usually irritating. 
 

I’ve just done 1,000 miles of EV motoring around some of the more remote parts of the Scottish Highlands. I’ve reached an age where the demands of my bladder are much more immediate and troubling than the demands of my car to top up the battery. For me it’s just a mindset issue: I need to plan my routes to make sure I can recharge (and discharge). Apps like ABRP meant I didn’t have any problems. 
 

Paul

 

 

 

Edited September 6, 2022 by Fenman
Fat fingers

[Hobby]

1 hour ago, Fenman said:

My guess is that there is no mass-market future for long distance [leisure] motoring.

 

Has it ever really been any different? However there is still a large market for long distance travel in certain jobs that require it, and there will be a decent leisure travel market as well, so a requirement for decent battery capacity shouldn't be ignored just because of that.

 

1 hour ago, Fenman said:

never takes their car out of the UK.

 

No, they fly! But again that's been the case for the last 50+ years.

[Hobby]

Those with EVs, if you, say, spend a week just pottering around town, doing a few miles a day and then do a longer trip over the weekend do you leave it on charge every night or charge it up once at the beginning of the week and then again the day before the long trip?

[Ron Ron Ron]

Someone I know, charges his BMW i3 on Monday, after the weekend, uses the car all week on that charge for commuting and general running around, then charges up again on Friday afternoon, ready for the weekend. With an occasional overnight charge on Saturday or Sunday night.

 

.

[Hobby]

Thanks Ron, I got the impression from some posts that people had them attached to the mains at every opportunity! Nice to know that you don't have to. That way of doing it seems very logical but not the way many people do it who always seem to want full (or 80%!) charge all the time.

[AndrueC]

On 01/09/2022 at 15:36, Kelly said:

 

I wonder if those still with Economy 7 meters will get the best of it in terms of rates, though I suspect they're slowly becoming less common. My flat still has one, but it won't be my flat for very much longer I expect.

Smart meters can support E7 so not having an E7 meter doesn't mean you can't have the tariff.

[AndrueC]

23 hours ago, idd15 said:

The whole point, as he was also at pains to point out, is that while the car is charging you do something else. Get your head around that and long journey times are not an issue. I speak as someone who does regular road trips in an EV with 135 miles practical range and a max charging speed of 50Kwhr.

I've noticed that several golf courses now support what appear to be free chargers (no idea who pays for them) so that's an obvious choice for me. I went up to south west Scotland from South Northants a couple of weeks ago and broke the journey both ways with a stay at Manchester. I don't know if the motel at Haydock Park has chargers (the website doesn't seem to say) but a round of golf is probably long enough to get the car fully charged up. The extra cost of an overnight stay has to be considered but in all honesty with a nice meal and passable bed it's fair enough. I wouldn't really want to drive for more than half a day anyway.

 

For what it's worth my Corolla turned in 71 mpg on both journeys and 67 mpg including local driving to courses while I was there. That's measured pump to pump, not relying on the dash display ;)

 

I should 'fess up and say that the long journeys were executed in lane one with the CC set to 60 mph. Very relaxing but not to everyone's taste :)

Edited September 6, 2022 by AndrueC

[AndrueC]

38 minutes ago, Hobby said:

Thanks Ron, I got the impression from some posts that people had them attached to the mains at every opportunity! Nice to know that you don't have to. That way of doing it seems very logical but not the way many people do it who always seem to want full (or 80%!) charge all the time.

That's what I'd probably do. I keep my car in the garage so it would just become habit to plug it in when I park it.

[Fenman]

2 hours ago, Hobby said:

Thanks Ron, I got the impression from some posts that people had them attached to the mains at every opportunity! Nice to know that you don't have to. That way of doing it seems very logical but not the way many people do it who always seem to want full (or 80%!) charge all the time.

On average, I charge once a week.

 

The car has a range of ~250 miles; I drive roughly 12,000 miles a year. So the maths is very simple. Sometimes it’s a bit more than once a week, sometimes a bit less.

 

And more than 95% of my charging is done at home, overnight, while I sleep.

 

It is a very easy thing to live with. 
 

Paul

[admiles]

On 05/09/2022 at 09:03, Hobby said:

 

Well at least it's honest, I've driven from Birmingham to southern Germany many times and I'm afraid that video shows just why long journeys aren't, currently, the forte of EVs. Some people might find it acceptable to spend stops every hour or so to top up but that's not my idea of a good long journey. For example, from Kiddy we drive straight down to the tunnel in one go (3 to 4hrs dependent on the M25), then use the tunnel, have a break at the tunnel's waiting area, fill up at the cheap garage the other side and 1.5 hours to Belgium for an o/n and wander round some nice town. Onwards next morning for 2.5/3.5hrs to somewhere in Germany and stop for lunch. The same in the afternoon and o/n somewhere like Heidleburg (sp!), fill up at night and same next day. Relaxing 3 day trip to south of Munich. In the old days I could do that lot in 1.5 days! OK, not towing a caravan so with a car wit a real range of around 3hrs it would be possible, but I only have to fill up twice and don't have to worry about finding chargers.

 

His description of the journey really worries me if people feel that that is the acceptable face of future long distance motoring. Yes it can be done, but I wouldn't regard it as the relaxing time I have at the moment of long journeys, EV's days will come but they still have some way to go, hybrids for me for the time being.

 

In the mid to late 70's my mother used to do Hoek Van Holland or Zeebrugge to just east of Munich in a day in a Fiat 128 with my as a baby on her own.  Later trips involved a Metro and a then brand new MK1Clio. Ok not towing a caravan but is does show things haven't really progressed and look to be taking a reasonable step backward.

 

Incidentally I'm now a week or so into my inherited leased company hybrid experience.  I've given it a fair chance. I even wanted to like it but.....I can't. It really is a useless t*rd of a vehicle.

Leaving aside the looks (Toyota C-HR) the functionality is just awful. It's not fuel efficient, just 4 mpg better than my 3 litre, 6 cylinder BMW so far, the battery is so small as to be all but pointless. It can do maybe half a mile or so in "EV mode". Ditching the motor and battery and just having it as a straight petrol would at least save some weight. The EV part really is just "greenwash". It adds nothing to the usability of the thing at all.  The worst thing though is the awful gearbox/drivetrain.  It feels like it a CVT gearbox (maybe it is?). Any sort of request for forward motion is met with revving like crazy, vibration and noise but no real forward motion.

 

February and the end of the lease can't come soon enough!  

[idd15]

2 hours ago, Hobby said:

Thanks Ron, I got the impression from some posts that people had them attached to the mains at every opportunity! Nice to know that you don't have to. That way of doing it seems very logical but not the way many people do it who always seem to want full (or 80%!) charge all the time.

My experience is pretty much like @Fenman really but with half the range and two thirds the mileage! 😀
Only thing I have to remember is that 4hrs overnight charging does not completely fill the battery so I might have to plug it in two nights for a long trip.

idd

[idd15]

6 hours ago, Fenman said:

 

I’ve just done 1,000 miles of EV motoring around some of the more remote parts of the Scottish Highlands. I’ve reached an age where the demands of my bladder are much more immediate and troubling than the demands of my car to top up the battery. For me it’s just a mindset issue: I need to plan my routes to make sure I can recharge (and discharge). Apps like ABRP meant I didn’t have any problems. 
 

Paul

 

 

 

Don’t suppose you were doing the NC500 where you? I really fancy doing that road trip, it looks stunning.
 

How did you find the chargers? When we last visited Scotland about 5years ago in our first leaf they were really good reliability wise but have since heard it’s not so good now.

thx

idd

 

[Fenman]

1 hour ago, idd15 said:

Don’t suppose you were doing the NC500 where you? I really fancy doing that road trip, it looks stunning.
 

How did you find the chargers? When we last visited Scotland about 5years ago in our first leaf they were really good reliability wise but have since heard it’s not so good now.

thx

idd

 

 

A mixed bag, to be frank. Lots of old-looking ones which were hit and miss; but the fast chargers seemed much more reliable: basically in towns there's at least one pay-as-you-go fast charger (ie, at least 50kW) in the car park of almost every big Tesco's. But ABRP was a god-send there, too, because in, eg, Thurso, there was a cheap fast charger in the Park Hotel and none in the town's big Tesco just opposite.

 

The Charge Scotland network was generally pretty reliable -- I had no problems with using my phone app but it's recommended by most forums that if you're going to go really remote you should get the RFID card from them (I don't actually own any RFID cards) -- which you have to order at least 10 working days before you need it so they can post it to you...

 

The Tesla network has started to open up which also helps: the huge bank of super-fast chargers at Aviemore is open to all, though it's a [swear word beginning with B deleted] to find it in the first place. And Elon's super-charging those of us who haven't bought one of his cars.

 

Gridserve is also getting its act together: Stirling services at the base of the A9 had a range of options including very fast, all of which worked.

 

Generally, I had no bad experiences. I wouldn't hesitate to take the EV again.

 

Paul

 

Edited September 6, 2022 by Fenman
The nanny-bot edited out what I thought was a largely inoffensive swear-word (which I was certainly using in the school playground more than half a century ago), so I had to insert something else

[Hobby]

5 hours ago, AndrueC said:

For what it's worth my Corolla turned in 71 mpg on both journeys and 67 mpg including local driving

 

Sorry, Andrue, I've probably missed it, but what Corolla model is it?