Electric, Hybrid and Alternative fuelled vehicles - News and Discussion

[Ron Ron Ron]

On 13/12/2022 at 13:00, admiles said:

 

Believe Honda also did (maybe still do) and HR-V too!

There was an old HR-V, built between 1998 and 2006.

After a long pause, they made a new model from 2013.

 

Now there’s two different, all-new mk3's.

The new global model HR-V (which is the one now sold in the UK), was introduced this year (2022).

 

There's a different, larger vehicle, sold in North America and China, that also shares the HR-V moniker in those markets.

This vehicle is sold in some other markets as the ZR-V.

 

 

 

 

 

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Edited December 16, 2022 by Ron Ron Ron

[Guest]

Doug DeMuro does the Amazon van.

 

 

[boxbrownie]

12 hours ago, 30801 said:

Doug DeMuro does the Amazon van.

 

 

Thanks but……that voice 🤐

[idd15]

Instavolt are expanding one of their key charging sites, and the extended part will be fully accessible. Good to see the new BSI standard being deployed.

 

Instavolt Banbury

 

idd

[Jol Wilkinson]

CRV and FRV apparently stand for Compact Recreational Vehicle and Family Recreational Vehicle. I am not sure about HRV - Hopeless Recreational Vehicle?

[Ron Ron Ron]

With 11 months of 2022 now gone, here's  "Ron's monthly update on UK new car registrations", taken from the monthly sales stats published by the SMMT.

I post these in an attempt to illustrate the gradual shift in new car sales, away from ICE powered cars and towards EV and Hybrid vehicles.

 

As I said in recent months, I'll keep it going on a monthly basis until the December figures come in, in early January, to complete the data for 2022.

If anyone would like me to continue this exercise into 2023, do let me know.

Thank you to those who provided positive feedback.

 

Here is the latest set of data, taken from the Society of Motor Manufacturers & Traders (SMMT) figures for new car registrations during  November 2022.

 

 

 

The following statistics also show the recent, monthly trend up to Nov 2022, as well as mid point figures for Jan & Jun 2020, as arbitrary, early reference points, to see how things are progressing .

 

Total monthly new car registrations for Nov 2022. were up 23.5% on Nov 2021, ...

.....although down by 3.4% in total, over the 1st 11 months of the calendar year, compared with the same 11 month period in 2021.

 

 

Market share by fuel/power  ........

 

Nov 2022

 

Diesel.                            3.9%      (down from  5.1%   in Nov 2021)

Mild-hybrid Diesel        4.3%     (down from  4.5%    in Nov 2021)

Petrol.                          40.3%      (down from 43.3%  in Nov 2021)

Mild-hybrid Petrol      12.5%      (up from  10.7%      in Nov 2021)

Hybrid                          11.2%      (up  from  8.3%       in Nov 2021)

Plug-in Hybrid               7.1%      (down from  9.3%   in Nov 2021)

BEV (battery).              20.6%      (up from  15.2%      in Nov 2021)

 

 

The market share figures for pure electric cars (BEV's) have steadily grown from 2.7% in Jan 2020 and 6.9% in Jan 2021.

Throughout the whole of 2022, there has been an interruption in take-up, due to continuing supply problems and long back order lists, resulting in static growth figures averaging a 15.1% market share over the 1st 11 months of the year.

 

20.6%  in Nov 2022   (the 2nd highest monthly figure, so far)

14.8%  in Oct 2022

16.9%  in Sep 2022

14.5%  in Aug 2022

10.9%  in Jul 2022

16.1%  in Jun 2022

12.4%. in May 2022

10.8%  in Apr 2022

16.1%. in Mar 2022

17.7%  in Feb 2022

12.5%. in Jan 2022

25.5%  in Dec 2021

18.8%  in Nov 2021

15.2%  in Oct 2021

15.2%  in Sep 2021

10.9%  in Aug 2021

  9.0%  in Jul 2021

10.7%  in Jun 2021

 6.5%   in Apr 2021  

 6.9%   in Jan 2021

  6.1%  in Jun 2020

  2.7%  in Jan 2020 (pre-Covid)

 

 

BEV, PHEV & Hybrid combined, now account for over one third of the new car market.

 

38.9%  in Nov 2022

33.1%  in Oct 2022

35.3%  in Sep 2022   (hovering around a third of total monthly sales, over the last 12 months)

31.7%  in Aug 2022

28.9%  in Jul 2022    (the same as Jul 2021)

32.2%  in Jun 2022

30.0%  in May 2022

27.9%  In Apr 2022

34.1%  in Mar 2022

37.3%  in Feb 2022

32.1%  in Jan 2022 

41.2%  in Dec 2021

36.4%  in Nov 2021

31.2%  in Oct 2021

33.2%  in Sep 2021

30.1%  in Aug 2021

28.9%  in Jul 2021

25.9%  in Jun 2021

21.6%  In Apr 2021

21.3%  in Jan 2021

16.5%  in Jun 2020

11.9%  in Jan 2020 (pre-Covid)

 

 

Separating out just the Hybrid's and Plug-in Hybrids, ....combined, these accounted for...

 

18.3%  in Nov 2022

18.3%  in Oct 2022

18.4%  in Sep 2022

17.2%  in Aug 2022

18.0%  in Jul 2022

16.1%  in Jun 2022

17.6%  in May 2022

17.1%  In Apr 2022

18.0%  in Mar 2022

19.6%  in Feb 2022

19.6%  in Jan 2022

15.7%  in Dec 2021

17.6%  in Nov 2021

16.0%  in Oct 2021

18.0%  in Sep 2021

19.2%  in Aug 2021

19.9%  in Jul 2021

15.2%  in Jun 2021

15.1%. In Apr 2021

14.4%  in Jan 2021

10.4%  in Jun 2020

  9.2%  in Jan 2020 (pre-Covid)

 

 

Pure ICE (both Petrol & Diesel combined) now count for less than half of the new car market, much lower than what it was 2 years ago..

A comparison with previous periods...

 

44.2%  in Nov 2022

47.1%  in Oct 2022

45.3%  in Sep 2022

52.5%  in Aug 2022

51.2%  in Jul 2022

49.7%  in Jun 2022

51.7%. in May 2022

51.4%. In Apr 2022

47.6%  in Mar 2022

47.2%  in Feb 2022

49.9%  in Jan 2022

43.5%  in Dec 2021

48.4% in Nov 2021

52.1%  in Oct 2021

48.8%  in Sep 2021

50.8%  in Aug 2021

51.9%  in Jul 2021

54.5%  in Jun 2021

60.2%. In Apr 2021

62.1%  in Jan 2021

76.3%  in Jun 2020

80.5%  in Jan 2020 (pre-Covid)

 

 

Combine the new Mild Hybrid ICE  (both Petrol & Diesel)  with pure ICE and the total ICE figures are...

 

61.0%  in Nov 2022  (so averaging, roughly 2 thirds of new sales each month, over the last 12 months....and trending downwards)

66.8%  in Oct 2022  

64.7%  in Sep 2022  

68.3%  in Aug 2022

70.9%  in Jul 2022   (the same as Jul 2021)

67.8%  in Jun 2022

69.9%  in May 2022

72.0%  In Apr 2022

65.8%  in Mar 2022

62.7%  in Feb 2022

67.9%  in Jan 2022

58.8%  in Dec 2021

63.6%  in Nov 2021

68.7%  in Oct 2021

66.8%  in Sep 2021

70.0%  in Aug 2021

70.9%  in Jul 2021

74.1%  in Jun 2021

78.5%  in Apr 2021

78.8%  in Jan 2021

83.5%  in Jun 2020

88.0%  in Jan 2020 (pre-Covid)

 

 

The relative proportions of sales, by fuel/propulsion type, have been fairly static over recent months, with a modest resumption of the upward trend towards EV's, at the end of the year.

 

n.b. Supplies of all new cars continue to be constrained due to shortages of micro-chips and other sub-components.

BEV sales are not only being constrained by the supply chain issues, but demand is far exceeding availability, with long delivery times up to and over a year on many models.

 

 

 

.

 

[Nick C]

@Ron Ron Ron is there any breakdown of how those sales are divided by market segment? Certainly most of the BEVs I see around here are 'higher end' vehicles - SUVs, Teslas etc, wheras most of the cheaper/smaller cars I see are ICE - which makes sense given that the price differential will make more of an impact on a cheaper vehicle, and that the EV ranges tend to be biased towards the higher end at the moment anyway. 

[Guest]

24 minutes ago, Nick C said:

EV ranges tend to be biased towards the higher end at the moment anyway. 

 

I think the cheapest one is the MG4 @ £25k. It's quite a well specced car that does 0-62 in 7.5 seconds.

We need things like the Dacia Spring to buy.

[Ron Ron Ron]

7 hours ago, 30801 said:

 

I think the cheapest one is the MG4 @ £25k. It's quite a well specced car that does 0-62 in 7.5 seconds.

We need things like the Dacia Spring to buy.

 

The starting price range for small, A segment ICE powered cars is at least £17k or £18k, for the most basic models (trim levels).

The more popular B segment, small cars, such as the Corsa, Fiesta, Polo etc, start at just under £20k, with most of the more popular trim level and engine combinations for these models, being priced in the £21k to £25k range.

 

VW and a couple of other manufacturers are openly talking about their efforts to bring sub £20k EV's to the market, within the next 3 years.

These appear to be more "sophisticated" vehicles than the rather spartan Dacia Spring.

Meanwhile, we wait to see what the Chinese might bring to European shores, in the lower price categories....... if they're allowed to threaten the European manufacturing establishment to that degree..... and, will we ever see that rumoured $25k Tesla, that's supposed to be under development, for production in China?

 

 

 

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Edited December 16, 2022 by Ron Ron Ron

[Ron Ron Ron]

7 hours ago, Nick C said:

@Ron Ron Ron is there any breakdown of how those sales are divided by market segment? Certainly most of the BEVs I see around here are 'higher end' vehicles - SUVs, Teslas etc, wheras most of the cheaper/smaller cars I see are ICE - which makes sense given that the price differential will make more of an impact on a cheaper vehicle, and that the EV ranges tend to be biased towards the higher end at the moment anyway. 

 

The SMMT hold those stats, but I think you have to pay to get that sort of detail.

Unless a news or magazine article does the work for you.

 

Apart from a few of the cheapest models, most currently available BEV's, range in price from around £29k to over £100k.

That's quite a wide price spread.

 

The Vauxhall Corsa is the 2nd best selling car in the UK this year (up to November), but I can't find any information to say what proportion of Corsa sales were for the all-electric Corsa-e.

Similarly Mini is the 4th best seller and the Kia Niro the 10th, but again, no info on how many are the BEV versions.

 

Incidentally, the Tesla Model Y was the UK's 2nd best seller in November and is in 9th place overall for this year.

That's a £55k to £68k car as well.

 

 

.

[Guest]

12 hours ago, Ron Ron Ron said:

 

The starting price range for small, A segment ICE powered cars is at least £17k or £18k, for the most basic models (trim levels).

The more popular B segment, small cars, such as the Corsa, Fiesta, Polo etc, start at just under £20k, with most of the more popular trim level and engine combinations for these models, being priced in the £21k to £25k range.

The Dacia Sandero is a bit under 13k and the Citroen C4 You! Is 14k

I see the Fiesta now starts at 19k and for that money they can keep it. I’m sure they were 14k when I last thought about one.

I once bought a Panda new for 5.5k and the current one based on the same platform is 14k!!

[Ouroborus]

On 16/12/2022 at 22:05, Ron Ron Ron said:

 

The SMMT hold those stats, but I think you have to pay to get that sort of detail.

Unless a news or magazine article does the work for you.

 

Apart from a few of the cheapest models, most currently available BEV's, range in price from around £29k to over £100k.

That's quite a wide price spread.

 

The Vauxhall Corsa is the 2nd best selling car in the UK this year (up to November), but I can't find any information to say what proportion of Corsa sales were for the all-electric Corsa-e.

Similarly Mini is the 4th best seller and the Kia Niro the 10th, but again, no info on how many are the BEV versions.

 

Incidentally, the Tesla Model Y was the UK's 2nd best seller in November and is in 9th place overall for this year.

That's a £55k to £68k car as well.

 

 

.

 

 

The Tesla is part of the NHS car pool.  High enough pay grades are able to claim them.

 

They're also entitled to charge them at work and claim mileage allowance.  Remember when you clapped for us....

[black and decker boy]

2 hours ago, Ouroborus said:

 

 

The Tesla is part of the NHS car pool.  High enough pay grades are able to claim them.

 

They're also entitled to charge them at work and claim mileage allowance.  Remember when you clapped for us....

HMRC will be interested then.

electric isn’t classed as a fuel for tax purposes but their guidance is that tax does apply if an employer both provides free charging AND pays a mileage rate.

 

My employer offers 2 formats:

1) fully paid Allstar Electric card (but no mileage rate) and access to work based chargers. They can even reimburse your domestic supplier directly from your smart charger (MINA).

2) mileage rate but no free access to work based chargers. All electric purchased by the employee.

 

our work based chargers are RFID card activated so no sneaky top ups possible.

 

Having Tesla’s on the NHS car list isn’t a bad thing and no different to any similar value car which presumably would have been available to senior managers & clinicians. Tesla are the better of the EV ranges, both in terms of charging network and base efficiency of the tech.

 

 

 

 

[Ron Ron Ron]

Not resting on their laurels, Hyundai are introducing an all-new Mk2 model of their well-received Kona in 2023.

The car will be available as a Hybrid, Plug-in Hybrid and off course, the popular full BEV version.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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[Ouroborus]

5 hours ago, black and decker boy said:

HMRC will be interested then.

electric isn’t classed as a fuel for tax purposes but their guidance is that tax does apply if an employer both provides free charging AND pays a mileage rate.

 

My employer offers 2 formats:

1) fully paid Allstar Electric card (but no mileage rate) and access to work based chargers. They can even reimburse your domestic supplier directly from your smart charger (MINA).

2) mileage rate but no free access to work based chargers. All electric purchased by the employee.

 

our work based chargers are RFID card activated so no sneaky top ups possible.

 

Having Tesla’s on the NHS car list isn’t a bad thing and no different to any similar value car which presumably would have been available to senior managers & clinicians. Tesla are the better of the EV ranges, both in terms of charging network and base efficiency of the tech.

 

 

My point was not so much the car, but that drivers of them were benefiting from free fuel IN ADDITION to claiming mileage.   It creates a lot of bad feeling amongst those not able to claim an EV and who have to pay for fuel.  But its NHS management - they create their own rules and guard them fanatically..  

[Hobby]

32 minutes ago, Ron Ron Ron said:

 

.

 

Yet another SUV, don't manufacturers know how to make ordinary cars these days... Sooner this SUV bubble bursts the better...

[Guest]

55 minutes ago, Hobby said:

Yet another SUV, don't manufacturers know how to make ordinary cars these days... Sooner this SUV bubble bursts the better...

 

As Sandy Munro says somewhere in this rather interesting video they start with SUVs because SUVs make the most profit.

 

 

[Ron Ron Ron]

1 hour ago, Hobby said:

Yet another SUV, don't manufacturers know how to make ordinary cars these days... Sooner this SUV bubble bursts the better...

 

48 minutes ago, 30801 said:

As Sandy Munro says somewhere in this rather interesting video they start with SUVs because SUVs make the most profit…..

 

They make them and therefore make the most profit, because that’s what the market wants.

Like a lot of similar sized vehicles, the Kona isn’t really an SUV.

It’s a “crossover”…….basically a hatchback with a raised suspension and a bigger, more practical body.

 

While certain manufacturers still offer some estate versions of just a few of their models, the demand for them collapsed a few years ago, compared with the market for estate cars, only 10 or 15 years ago.

 

Ford are dropping the Fiesta completely, in favour of a new model electric crossover (based on VW’s MEB platform).

Production of their Mondeo in Europe ended last March, after years of dwindling sales. The Kuga took its place in their sales figures. 

 

These type of SUV and “crossover” vehicles are not going away any time soon.

 

 

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[Hobby]

I love the phrase "what the market wants", it's actually what the manufacturer wants and the marketing people can sell to gullible punters...

[Ian J.]

I can see why people are turning to cars that sit higher, for at least two reasons:

 

One, would be the higher ride height allows better visibility over lower height cars;

 

Two, would be (and this applies to me) where trying to get down into a lower height car when you have a back problem can be very uncomfortable. The higher ride height allows for more comfortable access into the vehicle, especially when doing so from a pavement.

 

If I have a choice, I think my next car has to be something that rides higher, whether new or secondhand.

[Hobby]

1 hour ago, Ian J. said:

One, would be the higher ride height allows better visibility over lower height cars;

Two, would be (and this applies to me) where trying to get down into a lower height car when you have a back problem can be very uncomfortable. The higher ride height allows for more comfortable access into the vehicle, especially when doing so from a pavement.

 

Yes we've had this discussion before and both your points can be turned on their head...

 

1. Where do you stop? Higher and higher vehicles?!! Up until recently the only vehicles which obstructed vision for normal cars were commercial and 4x4s, SUVs have made this much worse. Also less aerodynamic...

 

2. Some people can't climb into them, though, my wife is one, an extra inch or two ride height is OK (such as the old "Scout" range of cars by Skoda based on their ordinary car range) but we tried a Tiguan last time we changed and she couldn't get in the thing or any of the other SUVs that looked a possibility!

 

It's a never ending discussion, but my comment was a genuine concern that they are concentrating more on SUVs than ordinary cars (for profit judging by the comments) but in the main they are less space efficient than the equivalent car, their only advantage seems to be height, but only if that is acceptable to the individual buying.

[Jol Wilkinson]

2 hours ago, Hobby said:

I love the phrase "what the market wants", it's actually what the manufacturer wants and the marketing people can sell to gullible punters...

 

No, it is what the market wants. Manufacturers test new concepts and put out designs based upon reaction. Some ideas work and become very popular, hatchbacks and SUVs being good examples. Others don't succeed so well, "city cars" haven't really taken off despite several manufacturers producing them. 

 

Gullible punters? Todays market savvy consumer knows what they want, or think they do. Brand image is probably the most important buying factor as status is now increasingly indicated by what people own rather than what they do, so for many an Audi beats a Kia, an iPhone beats a Huawei, shopping in Waitrose beats growing you own and so on.

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Jol Wilkinson said:

Others don't succeed so well, "city cars" haven't really taken off despite several manufacturers producing them.

 

City cars aren't profitable. They aren't much cheaper to make than a funky crossover but peole expect them to be much cheaper to buy.

[Hobby]

3 hours ago, Jol Wilkinson said:

Brand image is probably the most important buying factor as status is now increasingly indicated by what people own rather than what they do, so for many an Audi beats a Kia

 

Maybe, as SUVs are popular across the brands indicate that its the car's type that is the status rather than the brand and that over rides any other considerations such as interior space, etc..

 

Perhaps we need to go back on subject, I'll never be convinced that SUVs are a good idea or are anything more than the manufacturer's way of increasing profits and are the work of tge devil! 😈

 

Edited December 24, 2022 by Hobby

[Fenman]

9 hours ago, Jol Wilkinson said:

 

... Brand image is probably the most important buying factor as status is now increasingly indicated by what people own rather than what they do, so for many an Audi beats a Kia, an iPhone beats a Huawei, shopping in Waitrose beats growing you own and so on.

Although that also seems to be changing: in the ICE Age both Kia and Hyundai were regarded as, well, “value” rather than high-status brands. Yet the EV6, Ioniq 5 (and, if early reviews are to be believed, Ioniq 6, too) are clearly premium cars with waiting lists that are frankly extraordinary.

 

VW doesn’t seem to have succeeded so well in translating its higher quality / higher price image to its iD models — and, of the VW group, it’s previously value-focussed Skoda which now appears to produce the higher quality car. 
 

But I have one other thought on this complaint that BEVs are too expensive. A year ago I did my sums and bought an Ioniq 5. It’s been a delightful car and I have no regrets at all. But the fact is it’s way too big for my needs — the interior space is vast, and is at least one, possibly two, classes above what I need.

 

Purpose-designed BEVs turn out to be so space-efficient that we can easily sink down the model hierarchy compared to the equivalent ICE model; where, of course, we also find lower prices. 
 

Comparing real like with like, the price gap between ICE and BEV would be very significantly reduced even with today’s cars. 
 

Paul
 

 

 

 

 

Edited December 24, 2022 by Fenman
Deleted tired cliche