Inglenook Sidings Suggestions Needed

[latestarter]

My new layout, originally designed by @Kris with help from @RJS1977 @The Johnster and others, is coming along well, and I've started to pin it down in places. However, I'm keen to include a permanent 'Inglenook Sidings' puzzle (Alan Wright 1979) section in it. I welcome advice on whether 1) The section I marked in green (below) works as it is as the layout for the puzzle, and 2) could the section in purple be extended to make the layout - and if so what Hornby set track pieces would be needed.

There is a typical layout for the puzzle on this website but I'm sure no one here needs it. The white area on the plan is baseboard, not a cutout.

Thanks for any suggestions.

Edited November 10, 2021 by latestarter

[kevinlms]

2 hours ago, latestarter said:

My new layout, originally designed by @Kris with help from @RJS1977 @The Johnster and others, is coming along well, and I've started to pin it down in places. However, I'm keen to include a permanent 'Inglenook Sidings' puzzle (Alan Wright 1979) section in it. I welcome advice on whether 1) The section I marked in green (below) works as it is as the layout for the puzzle, and 2) could the section in purple be extended to make the layout - and if so what Hornby set track pieces would be needed.

There is a typical layout for the puzzle on this website but I'm sure no one here needs it. The white area on the plan is baseboard, not a cutout.

Thanks for any suggestions.

Would have thought the grey triangle would be suitable for a 3rd track of an Inglenook. It would work as the bottom of 3 (GS) or the top of the 3.

 

You would use the curve track starting with R607 as the headshunt. Stop it with some sort of barrier to make it comply with Inglenook lengths.

[latestarter]

10 minutes ago, kevinlms said:

Would have thought the grey triangle would be suitable for a 3rd track of an Inglenook. It would work as the bottom of 3 (GS) or the top of the 3.

 

You would use the curve track starting with R607 as the headshunt. Stop it with some sort of barrier to make it comply with Inglenook lengths.

Thanks very much for that @kevinlms . So, would I use a left hand point (Hornby R872?) between the R8073 and the R601, (on the 2nd siding below the GS) to start the 3rd siding?

[ITG]

31 minutes ago, kevinlms said:

Would have thought the grey triangle would be suitable for a 3rd track of an Inglenook. It would work as the bottom of 3 (GS) or the top of the 3.

 

You would use the curve track starting with R607 as the headshunt. Stop it with some sort of barrier to make it comply with Inglenook lengths.

 But don’t forget that introducing an extra point will reduce the effective length of the existing siding, and the new siding will be quite short too. And don’t forget the discussion in the other thread about where and how to site any uncouplers. There needs to be length beyond the uncoupling position in which to place the uncoupled wagon(s).

[latestarter]

25 minutes ago, ITG said:

 But don’t forget that introducing an extra point will reduce the effective length of the existing siding, and the new siding will be quite short too. And don’t forget the discussion in the other thread about where and how to site any uncouplers. There needs to be length beyond the uncoupling position in which to place the uncoupled wagon(s).

Thanks @ITG and @kevinlms I'm still getting my head around how everything works, track-wise. Here's what I've done so far (in photos)...you might let me know if it will work. I've sent for 2 Hornby R617 uncouplers that sit onto existing track. I had to send to Malta (via eBay) as UK parcels to Ireland are being seriously held up by Brexit and the only Irish MR dealer doesn't have them. But, I'm not sure where they would go and/if there's enough space.

Re: photos...I ran out of wagons (next on my shopping list), so imagine the shunter (identical to the one my dad drove), the flat wagon and the drums make up 3 wagons. I could probably get another R600 on the end of the siding with the shunter, and/or the siding below it and 2 R610's on the top siding if they need to be extended.

 

Edited November 10, 2021 by latestarter

[The Johnster]

The essence of an Inglenook is a self-contained mathematical shunting puzzle with set siding lengths, wagon capacity, and a resricted headshunt, and solving it can take you hours and is a brilliant escape from normal life (whatever that is when it's at home), absolutley absorbing and a great brain exercise, requiring forward planning, methodical thinking, and patience.  I'm not sure it really works on that level as part of a larger layout, as there is then the temptation to stash wagons elsewhere or use more than one loco.  It will work if you can discipline yourself to avoid this, however. 

 

Incorporating it on your layout depends on having sufficient room for the 3 specific lengths of sidings for the 3-2-2 wagon capacity and the limited space of the headshunt.  It can be done easily in your Goods Shed area, or as an addition to the two sidings between that and the running lines south of the grey triangle.  For proper Inglenook operation, you would need to reduce the length of the curved headshunt and institute a (not unprototypical) operating rule that each move must clear the turnouts accessing the 'non-Inglenook' roads and the running lines.  If you want to retain the length of the curved headshunt, some feature such as a lineside building or a telegraph pole can mark the 'limit of shunt' for Inglenook operation. 

 

When you are not in an Inglenooky mood (the best sort of nooky is Inglenooky), you can simply ignore the Inglenook rules and operate 'normally'.  My impression is that there is plenty of 'normal' operating potential in this layout to satisfy you, and while an Inglenook would be nice, it is by no means essential, a benefit of the adaptibility of this trackplan.  My BLT is a simple run around loop with spurs off the ends and a kickback off the platform road which I'm only allowed to use for NCB exchange traffic, but I can easily enough tie myself in shunting knots unless I prethink things through!  Another road to put wagons aside on would make life much easier, but I like the challenge of my trackplan!

Edited November 10, 2021 by The Johnster

[ITG]

The R617 ramps clip into the existing straight track, I think. So, if I were you, and to keep it simple, I’d site ramps as follows.

1.  Just about where your little shunter is

2.  Where the hopper wagon is on the other track

3.  And 4. Corresponding places on the other two sidings nearby.

5, 6, 7 & 8. On similar places on the 4 (if that’s what they are) sidings along the bottom edge of you layout. If you really want to get ‘realistic’, one may argue that uncoupling a wagon at (the loading bay of) the warehouse etc, would need another uncoupler at that other end of that siding, otherwise you’d be leaving a wagon miles (ok, slight exaggeration!)  away from where it was going to be loaded and unloaded. Same true of other sidings of a similar use. But !

 

On a slightly different note, with the curved track alongside the curved platform on the right, there is no space for an uncoupler, meaning you will be unable to have trains terminating there, (unless they simply reverse) because you would have no ‘on track’ means of detaching the loco to run round or refuel etc.

Edited November 10, 2021 by ITG

[Nickey Line]

19 minutes ago, The Johnster said:

lengths of sidings for the 3-2-2 wagon capacity

 

I think the OP is looking at a 5-3-3 inglenook in this instance...

If it were me, though, I'd like to leave room on the longer siding for a brake van to go on the end.

Which incidentally is what I did on my own inglenook.

Edited November 10, 2021 by Nickey Line
More words!

[latestarter]

25 minutes ago, The Johnster said:

 (the best sort of nooky is Inglenooky)

Currently, I'm inclined to differ, but maybe my view will change with a well-set up layout. Thank you again, for such a helpful and detailed reply. You've (once again) found yourself copied and pasted into my 'Model Railway' Word folder.

[latestarter]

28 minutes ago, ITG said:

The R617 ramps clip into the existing straight track, I think. So, if I were you, and to keep it simple, I’d site ramps as follows.

1.  Just about where your little shunter is

2.  Where the hopper wagon is on the other track

3.  And 4. Corresponding places on the other two sidings nearby.

5, 6, 7 & 8. On similar places on the 4 (if that’s what they are) sidings along the bottom edge of you layout. If you really want to get ‘realistic’, one may argue that uncoupling a wagon at (the loading bay of) the warehouse etc, would need another uncoupler at that other end of that siding, otherwise you’d be leaving a wagon miles (ok, slight exaggeration!)  away from where it was going to be loaded and unloaded. Same true of other sidings of a similar use. But !

 

On a slightly different note, with the curved track alongside the curved platform on the right, there is no space for an uncoupler, meaning you will be unable to have trains terminating there, (unless they simply reverse) because you would have no ‘on track’ means of detaching the loco to run round or refuel etc.

 

Brilliant help, and also copied and pasted for reading tomorrow. My first ever print copy of BRM magazine just arrived, so tonight's reading is already planned.

[latestarter]

21 minutes ago, Nickey Line said:

 

I think the OP is looking at a 5-3-3 inglenook in this instance...

If it were me, though, I'd like to leave room on the longer siding for a brake van to go on the end.

Which incidentally is what I did on my own inglenook.

 

I (probably) am thinking of the 5-3-3 Inglenook, as this seems to be the version I've read about. My understanding is...5 wagons are on one siding and three on the other to start. 5 Wagons are randomly selected, and must be shunted into order, while having no more than 3 wagons coupled to the loco at any one time?

I could probably extend the top siding (with the 5 wagons in the photo) by two R610's (short straights). Is that where you mean?

Edited November 10, 2021 by latestarter

[The Johnster]

2 hours ago, latestarter said:

Currently, I'm inclined to differ, but maybe my view will change with a well-set up layout.

Not quite one of us yet, then.

 

One of us, one of us...

[Nickey Line]

2 hours ago, latestarter said:

I could probably extend the top siding (with the 5 wagons in the photo) by two R610's (short straights). Is that where you mean?

 

Correct... to clarify, the siding would be long enough to take the 5 wagons plus the brake van on the end, thus making up a 'proper' train. The brake van should be ignored until the puzzle is complete.

[latestarter]

38 minutes ago, Nickey Line said:

 

Correct... to clarify, the siding would be long enough to take the 5 wagons plus the brake van on the end, thus making up a 'proper' train. The brake van should be ignored until the puzzle is complete.

Much appreciated, thanks again.

[Gilbert]

Just remember when you position your uncouplers - and this applies to any uncouplers where the effect can not be switched off such as fixed magnets for Kadees not just tension lock ramps - to leave 3 or 5 clear wagon lengths beyond the uncoupler otherwise you'll never be able to recover any wagons parked in that siding......

Chris

[latestarter]

28 minutes ago, Gilbert said:

Just remember when you position your uncouplers - and this applies to any uncouplers where the effect can not be switched off such as fixed magnets for Kadees not just tension lock ramps - to leave 3 or 5 clear wagon lengths beyond the uncoupler otherwise you'll never be able to recover any wagons parked in that siding......

Chris

Thank you. Actually, that was something I was wondering about. So, to clarify, 'beyond the uncoupler' would be towards the buffer at the end of the siding?

[Nickey Line]

54 minutes ago, latestarter said:

Actually, that was something I was wondering about. So, to clarify, 'beyond the uncoupler' would be towards the buffer at the end of the siding?

 

Yes indeed.

Additionally I suspect the Hornby uncouplers have to go on a straight piece of track, so that the curve at the beginning of the siding is dead space...

Edited November 10, 2021 by Nickey Line

[Dungrange]

1 hour ago, latestarter said:

Thank you. Actually, that was something I was wondering about. So, to clarify, 'beyond the uncoupler' would be towards the buffer at the end of the siding?

 

Yes, the Hornby uncoupling ramp needs to go on straight track and you need to make sure that when the three or five wagons are against the buffer stop, the coupling at the other end (which will couple to the locomotive) is clear of the uncoupling ramp.  If it's not, then you'll never be able to remove the wagons from the siding.

[Gilbert]

8 hours ago, latestarter said:

Thank you. Actually, that was something I was wondering about. So, to clarify, 'beyond the uncoupler' would be towards the buffer at the end of the siding?

Yes indeed!

 

[kevinlms]

11 hours ago, Nickey Line said:

 

Correct... to clarify, the siding would be long enough to take the 5 wagons plus the brake van on the end, thus making up a 'proper' train. The brake van should be ignored until the puzzle is complete.

On the other hand you could take the coupling off the brake van, so it MUST stay in the siding, thus preventing cheating! The train looks longer, but isn't.

 

If you wanted a part time Inglenook, you could substitute a brake van with couplings (using the 0-5-0 shunter) and now use it as a regular set of sidings.

[latestarter]

2 hours ago, kevinlms said:

On the other hand you could take the coupling off the brake van, so it MUST stay in the siding, thus preventing cheating! The train looks longer, but isn't.

 

If you wanted a part time Inglenook, you could substitute a brake van with couplings (using the 0-5-0 shunter) and now use it as a regular set of sidings.

Thanks for that. I'm lost though; If the siding was only long enough for 5 (or 3) wagons - which they more or less are now - would I need the brake van to prevent cheating? If you have time to say more about how I could cheat, I'd be interested to hear it (to make sure I AVOID cheating, of course!)

[latestarter]

17 hours ago, ITG said:

The R617 ramps clip into the existing straight track, I think. So, if I were you, and to keep it simple, I’d site ramps as follows.

2.  Where the hopper wagon is on the other track

 

Just checking...sorry...is that the red hopper wagon with the brown ballast or the first (grey) one with coal? I had assumed it was the second one, but then read that hopper wagons can carry almost anything!

p.s. You would not believe how hard it is to get the R617's or any other uncoupler that clips into the track (e.g. Peco) in Ireland. Amazon have them for £4 each, but postage starts at £18 and can be as high as £25 to Ireland. I've had to send to a shop in Malta for their last 3. Low postage (£2) but they could take 6 weeks!

Edited November 11, 2021 by latestarter

[kevinlms]

48 minutes ago, latestarter said:

Thanks for that. I'm lost though; If the siding was only long enough for 5 (or 3) wagons - which they more or less are now - would I need the brake van to prevent cheating? If you have time to say more about how I could cheat, I'd be interested to hear it (to make sure I AVOID cheating, of course!)

I was referring to a general thing that if the buffer stops might be adjustable, depending on the exact lengths available. I thought you mentioned adding adding pieces of track.

[latestarter]

40 minutes ago, kevinlms said:

I was referring to a general thing that if the buffer stops might be adjustable, depending on the exact lengths available. I thought you mentioned adding adding pieces of track.

Thanks again. I did mention next to track but that was only if I needed to get the uncouplers fitted.

[ITG]

1 hour ago, latestarter said:

Just checking...sorry...is that the red hopper wagon with the brown ballast or the first (grey) one with coal? I had assumed it was the second one, but then read that hopper wagons can carry almost anything!

p.s. You would not believe how hard it is to get the R617's or any other uncoupler that clips into the track (e.g. Peco) in Ireland. Amazon have them for £4 each, but postage starts at £18 and can be as high as £25 to Ireland. I've had to send to a shop in Malta for their last 3. Low postage (£2) but they could take 6 weeks!

Well, actually it’s probably between the two. As uncouplers need to be located on a straight track, the ideal siting would be as early in t hat straight section as possible, just beyond where the curve ends.