Obligation to provide alternative services during disruption

[Coryton]

Hello.

 

I've put this here as I'm not sure it's appropriate for prototype questions as it doesn't have much to do with modelling.

 

Does anyone know if rail companies have any obligation to attempt to source alternative transport if unable to operate services, or if it's just done as a courtesy?

 

Today all services on the Coryton line seem to be cancelled after around 3 pm apart from a single service leaving Queen Street at 18:26 (and that will start at Queen Street not Cardiff Bay).

 

It is a little disappointing that with very few other cancellations expected on the network they have chosen to abandon one line completely, and without any provision for alternative transport, not even getting Cardiff Bus to accept tickets for the stations that have a bus service as they have in the past.

 

It seems that everyone is expected to pile on to the 18:26 (which will probably a 153).

Is this as much as they are obliged to do?

 

One diagram is cancelled due to "resource availability" and the other due to "high winds" which appear to be affecting the Coryton line and no other part of the network.

 

(Yesterday the Coryton line was unique in having "severe weather" which caused the evening service to be entirely cancelled but they managed an hourly service during the day).

 

There's no "line update" on journeycheck or other generic warning/explanation - it's just that almost every train is individually shown as cancelled. 

 

 

[Reorte]

Whatever the cause of the issue in the first place it's not hard to imagine that getting alternatives arranged at no notice isn't easy these days.

 

A few years ago I was on a train that stopped due to snow (at a station, it didn't get stuck but wasn't going any further), they eventually came on the PA to announce that they'd tried getting a bus in but no bus company was going out in the conditions. Ended up walking eight miles back home (via some pubs).

[Hobby]

I think it depends on the cause of the disruption.

 

If its weather I don't think they do as usually other forms of transport has similar issues, though sometimes as with voyagers and Dawlish they'll agree mutual ticket acceptance.

 

I think if its an official dispute such as XCs its the same, no need to replace though again mutual ticket acceptance may be available.

 

Have you checked their website for their t&cs? Or even the hated twitter can be useful in these cases!

Edited November 30, 2021 by Hobby

[Coryton]

2 minutes ago, Hobby said:

I think it depends on the cause of the disruption.

 

If its weather I don't think they do as usually other forms of transport has similar issues, though sometimes as with voyagers and Dawlish they'll agree mutual ticket acceptance.

 

I think if its an official dispute such as XCs its the same, no need to replace though again mutual ticket acceptance may be available.

 

Have you checked their website?

 

I appreciate that even at the best of times replacement buses can't necessarily be found, but there are no actual weather issues to affect bus services (or indeed any other rail services) so if they haven't arranged acceptance on Cardiff Bus it's because either they didn't try or weren't able to agree something, not because there are no buses.

 

Yes of course I checked the web site (and Twitter - nothing there). They are dealing with it by just listing each service as cancelled on journeycheck with no information on alternative provision. There is no "line update" explaining what's going on. I phoned customer enquiries and they got onto "head office" and the response was that the 18:26 is running so I should catch that. Not hugely helpful. 

 

I have however now realised my mistake. I should of course have looked under "station updates" (obvious, eh?) where they explain that due to platforms 3 and 4 at Queen Street being out of action due to storm damage, the Cardiff Bay to Coryton line has a reduced service and rail tickets can be used on the "Baycar" which runs between Cardiff and the Bay. Not so useful if you're trying to get anywhere else on the line.

 

It explains why they're giving weather as the explanation, and I can appreciate they have a problem with reduced capacity (before platforms 1 and 5 came along they at least had platform 2 dedicated to Bay services and 3 and 4 for everything else,, and the Bay bay (platform 1) is out of action at the moment), and that if something has to give it makes sense for it to be the Coryton line as the most lightly loaded.

 

But I still don't understand why if Queen Street has the capacity for an hourly service to Coryton during the day they can't fit anything through it in the evening, or why given they are down from one to two diagrams they then (almost entirely) cancel the other diagram due to "resource availability" when they are expecting a near full service on the rest of the network.

 

There are probably good explanations but it would be nice if they had the time to give out a bit more information because at the moment it's coming across as if they don't care how people get home, which I hope is not true.

 

 

 

[Hobby]

I meant for you to ask on twitter, not just look at it! Most TOCs have someone looking at it that will respond  quickly though I can only speak for those I know and the Welsh operator I know nothing about.

Edited November 30, 2021 by Hobby

[Mike_Walker]

Do you really expect bus operators to have vehicles and drivers sitting idle just waiting for the phone to ring asking for assistance?

[Steamport Southport]

5 minutes ago, Mike_Walker said:

Do you really expect bus operators to have vehicles and drivers sitting idle just waiting for the phone to ring asking for assistance?

 

Yes. It's usually part of their contract that they will have with the train companies. You have people like Rob Thomson (of RT Models fame) who are on call all the time. He mostly does replacements for the Shrewsbury and North Wales area.

 

When Merseyrail, Trans Pennine or Northern have problems there is normally a bus service sorted within about an hour at most. 

 

If not they will normally book you a taxi.

 

Someone who uses trains on a regular basis and knows my rights.

 

https://www.nationalrail.co.uk/service_disruptions/245738.aspx

 

 

Jason

[Hobby]

That's if it qualifies for a replacement bus, not all scenarios do, as I mentioned earlier. For example: If they advise people not to travel such as last weekend due to the weather and someone ignores that advice the TOC has no obligation  to provide onward transport if the person can't get to their final station. It also applies if someone misses their train due to roadworks or a bus being late. 

[Coryton]

49 minutes ago, Hobby said:

I meant for you to ask on twitter, not just look at it! Most TOCs have someone looking at it that will respond  quickly though I can only speak for those I know and the Welsh operator I know nothing about.

 

As I said above, I phoned them up and they couldn't tell me any more so I doubt that asking on twitter would have been much more helpful. Commendably, I got through on the phone straight away and the lady on the other end of the phone was friendly, but even after making enquiries she couldn't provide any useful information.

 

44 minutes ago, Mike_Walker said:

Do you really expect bus operators to have vehicles and drivers sitting idle just waiting for the phone to ring asking for assistance?

 

I'm not sure what I've said to justify that response.

 

The cancellations for the evening were announced in the morning, so they had the best part of a day to try to make arrangements. They have certainly managed to find buses at much less notice than that before for more important routes.

 

But in any case (and as I did say above) in the past they have arranged ticket acceptance on Cardiff Bus (often at much shorter notice than this would have required).

 

22 minutes ago, Hobby said:

That's if it qualifies for a replacement bus, not all scenarios do, as I mentioned earlier. For example: If they advise people not to travel such as last weekend due to the weather and someone ignores that advice the TOC has no obligation  to provide onward transport if the person can't get to their final station. It also applies if someone misses their train due to roadworks or a bus being late. 

 

But the storm is long over so that's certainly not the scenario here. Nobody is being told not to travel. They're just failing to provide trains or any alternative so that people can get home.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Hobby]

I was replying to Jason who was quoting the rights of a valid train ticket holder just pointing out that replacement buses or taxis aren't provided every time  only in certain circumstances.

 

If you are a member of twitter I'd go on their account and ask what you are supposed to do if you want to use one of the intermediate stations if the Baycar doesn't serve it. Interesting to see their reply!

[Mike Bellamy]

1 hour ago, Mike_Walker said:

Do you really expect bus operators to have vehicles and drivers sitting idle just waiting for the phone to ring asking for assistance?

 

Certainly not around here as many bus services are being cancelled due to a lack of drivers - I don't know the actual figures but I'm sure I saw an article that said they can double their wages by driving HGVs

.

[Coryton]

Well I'm not suggesting anyone at TFW is reading this (I'm sure they're not) but we have some progress.

 

Journeycheck now has a line update:

"Due to restricted platform availability, services have been reduced through the station. This means you may see alterations or cancellations to Cardiff Bay and Coryton services. Ticket acceptance has been agreed with Cardiff Bus for passengers traveling these routes."

 

That's a lot more useful, though unreasonable person that I am I'd still like to know why they can support one train an hour during the day then in the evening when there are fewer services overall they can't find the capacity to get any trains to Coryton through the station.

 

The Baycar only serves Cardiff and the Bay, but there are other bus routes that will get people to/from Cardiff to most of the other stations. Not so good if the centre of Cardiff isn't at one or the other end of your journey though.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[The Johnster]

I think we'd have managed better in the 70s.  If you can retain the Rhymney Valley services using 1 and 2 at QS, and get a train, only one would be needed, to operate a Heath Low Level-Coryton shuttle, passengers have the option of the short walk between High and Low levels at Heath.  We did this one day in the hot summer of '76, and I was guard, the root problem being that the 116s were failing with coolant issues faster than Canton dmu could get them running again.  Locked in to the branch, we spent a pleasant enough day back and forwarding to the timetable with me hanging about at the road end of the Low Level entrance to see if anyone was walking up the road for us, then the unit failed at Low Level just when it was needed at 5 o'clock in the evening and that was end of sports until they could spare a 37 to rescue us, but we'd done our best.  We'd been down to one engine out of four for most of the day, no surprise that it got a bit hot under it's collar.

 

To be fair, and fully sympathising with Coryton's frustration if Cardiff Bus are not accepting railway tickets, it is not as if anyone using the branch from town or the docks cannot use the bus, though at this time of day they are slow and overcrowded. 

[The Johnster]

Crossed posts; I see Cardiff Bus are now doing the right thing.  Your problem now is getting on a bus in the first place...

[Coryton]

3 minutes ago, The Johnster said:

I think we'd have managed better in the 70s.  If you can retain the Rhymney Valley services using 1 and 2 at QS, and get a train, only one would be needed, to operate a Heath Low Level-Coryton shuttle, passengers have the option of the short walk between High and Low levels at Heath.  We did this one day in the hot summer of '76, and I was guard, the root problem being that the 116s were failing with coolant issues faster than Canton dmu could get them running again.  Locked in to the branch, we spent a pleasant enough day back and forwarding to the timetable with me hanging about at the road end of the Low Level entrance to see if anyone was walking up the road for us, then the unit failed at Low Level just when it was needed at 5 o'clock in the evening and that was end of sports until they could spare a 37 to rescue us, but we'd done our best.  We'd been down to one engine out of four for most of the day, no surprise that it got a bit hot under it's collar.

 

I presume they could run a shuttle on the line now - a few years ago when the points onto the branch failed they ran it in two parts - one train up to High Level and back and one shuttling up and down to Coryton from Low Level. However, this didn't leave time to get between the two stations so you had to know to catch an earlier one to Heath...and even then there was no waiting to see if anyone was heading for Low Level. Once it was time to go, it went. Next one in half an  hour...

 

I think under the current circumstances one through train an hour is probably better than a shuttle every half hour with a fair chance of missing the connection.

 

And yes the bus works for trips into/from town so long as you ignore the "nearest bus stop" instructions at Whitchurch to wait on Northern Avenue for a Cardiff Bus that will never come and instead walk to Coryton or Rhiwbina. But people do use the line for intermediate journeys and Birchgrove or Ty Glas to Coryton isn't so good by bus and it's a bit of a walk.

 

 

[Coryton]

6 minutes ago, The Johnster said:

Crossed posts; I see Cardiff Bus are now doing the right thing.  Your problem now is getting on a bus in the first place...

 

Well if you walk to where the 21 and 23 currently start from it should be fine...not many people seem to want to lurk round the back of the stadium to get on a bus.

 

[The Johnster]

I agree, Ty Glas or Birchgrove is a bit of a schlep from Cortyon or Whitchurch, and  no fun to Rhiwbina if it's cold or raining.  In my day they'd have walked along the track.

[Coryton]

8 minutes ago, The Johnster said:

I agree, Ty Glas or Birchgrove is a bit of a schlep from Cortyon or Whitchurch, and  no fun to Rhiwbina if it's cold or raining.  In my day they'd have walked along the track.

 

Even for planned engineering they just send people to Cardiff Bus. It can't be an easy route to run a replacement bus on so I can see why they do it, though it would be nice if there was some provision for intermediate journeys.

 

However, I think it would be good if they provided some information on which bus to catch and where from - and if journey planners could cope with the concept. Ticket acceptance isn't much use if you can't buy a ticket as there are no trains.

[The Johnster]

It's just not very joined up, is it?

[Coryton]

1 minute ago, The Johnster said:

It's just not very joined up, is it?

 

No.

 

I only found out recently that in the 80's you could get a weekly or monthly ticket valid for rail and bus services in Cardiff (and - oddly - by train but not bus to Penarth and Dinas Powys).

 

Now instead you have the high bus flat fares penalising anyone trying to use two forms of transport for one journey.

 

We seem to have gone backwards and plans for something better never seem to quite materialise.

[The Johnster]

Back in the 70s we had interchangeable tickets valid on trains or buses between Cardiff and the Barry stations, and Cardiff/Caerphilly/Pontypridd, very popular and a money spinner for both sides.  We also had half fares in the weekday evenings on the Valley Lines, again very popular but I would not be able to say that the railway made much money on this; the fact that it didn't last very long suggests not. 

[Coryton]

1 hour ago, The Johnster said:

We also had half fares in the weekday evenings on the Valley Lines, again very popular but I would not be able to say that the railway made much money on this; the fact that it didn't last very long suggests not. 

 

Probably sold almost twice as many tickets...

 

There's the Valleys Nightrider ticket at £7.50. I don't know how popular it is. They don't seem to go out of their way to publicise it.

 

(Available from the train "supervisor" if you can't buy it at the station - is what TFW guards are called now?)