Scottish Wagon Company

[corneliuslundie]

According to Christensen and Miller in their 2-volume history of the Cambrian Railways (vol 2 page 140), in 1903 or 1904 a company called the Scottish Wagon Company of Edinburgh built a batch of 15 ton loco coal wagons for the Cambrian. There were two batches of 50 such wagons at this time. One definitely came from Pickering. I had assumed that the second one did too. However, looking at two photos in the HMRS collection, ABY535 of No. 2450 has an oval builder's plate whereas ACP216 of No. 2416 has a diamond shaped one, which suggests Pickering as the builder. 

So presumably Nos. 2400-2449 were built by the Scottish Wagon Company.

BUT  . . I can find out nothing about the company.

Can anyone throw any light on the company please?

Jonathan

[JeremyC]

There is a Scottish Wagon Company mentioned in Harry Knox's book on St Margarets with reference to William Hurst (NBR loco superintendent). I assume the company referred to is the same as the one you are asking about.

 

'Hurst had become chairman of the Scottish Wagon Company Ltd (1865), a company which was not engaged in the construction and hiring  of wagons, but was a hire purchase finance company founded to lend money to coal owners and others who might want wagons, but did not have the ready cash to pay for them.'

 

This company had wagons built by others, but appropriately plated, and for which money had been advanced running on the NBR. It seems this was one of the reasons that lead to Hurst's dismissal. He was as loco superintendent of the NBR negotiating with himself as chairman of the Scottish Wagon Company to loan to the NBR funds to purchase wagons.

 

Edited December 23, 2021 by JeremyC

[MarcD]

Interesting nevery heard of this company before. I have the HMRS photos of the Cambrian wagons I will have to have a better look. The codes on the photos would hint at th coming from two different sources as well. ABY is normally Pickering photos which would make sense.

 

Marc

[corneliuslundie]

Interesting. Yes, the only reference I had come across was an invoice for wagon hire (grabbed from the net and attached). I wonder if they were built by Pickering but the Cambrian sourced them through the Scottish Wagon Company to spread out the cost.

Jonathan

[Scottish Modeller]

Hi all,

 

I am aware of 2 references to this company.

 

See linked info

 

https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/3b1ac759-1bdb-414b-bd6b-73a5db08382f

 

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/165189292148

 

There is also a reference to the company in the journals of the Haddingtonshire and East Lothian Antiquarian Society. These were held at Haddington library but not available to the public. They were available, but at some point in the early 90's someone damaged them and took some pages out for their own use. That was why they were taken out of the public view.

 

Thanks

Phil H

[Compound2632]

C. Sambrook, British Carriage & Wagon Builders & Repairers 1830-2018 (Lightmoor Press, 2019):

 

Scottish Wagon Co. St Andrew Square, Edinburgh. "Founded in 1861 for the purposes of selling and letting on hire all kinds of railway wagons and trucks. Walter Maclellan of P&W MacLellan, the Glasgow wagon builders, was a director during the 1880s and in the company's report for 1910 they declared that they were the owners of 19,324 wagons and one engine... As the company were purely financiers and agents it is suspected that they were actually part of the MacLellan company."

 

P&W McLellan, Cultha Works, Glasgow, founded in 1811, was chiefly a general ion and steel engineering firm, their rolling stock work was specialising in iron and steel rolling stock for India and South Africa; they lasted until the 60s, building large orders for stock under the BR modernisation plan. However, in their heyday the general engineering and bridge-work side of the business seems to have been much more significant. 

 

So if the Scottish Wagon Co. was financing wooden wagons, that was clearly some way off the core business of the Glasgow firm. I think Jonathan is correct that they were providing the finance for the Cambrian's hire purchase of wagons actually built by Pickering; this was a not uncommon way of financing private owner wagons. The oval plate could well be the Scottish Wagon Co's owner's plate rather than a builder's plate. Owner's plates were usually oval with the word OWNER across the middle, the owner's name above and their fleet number below.

[corneliuslundie]

Thanks for that reference. A book I have sometimes considered getting.

Here is the Cambrian and other plate from the photo in question:

The word across the centre doesn't look like "Owner". Mind you the other wording doesn't look like "Scottish Wagon Co" either. "Factors"? The bottom line in fact could be "Oswestry" at a pinch.

Thoughts?

[jim.snowdon]

7 hours ago, corneliuslundie said:

Thanks for that reference. A book I have sometimes considered getting.

Here is the Cambrian and other plate from the photo in question:

The word across the centre doesn't look like "Owner". Mind you the other wording doesn't look like "Scottish Wagon Co" either. "Factors"? The bottom line in fact could be "Oswestry" at a pinch.

Thoughts?

The right hand plate is in fact a Cambrian Railways builders plate - essentially, Cambrian Railway Co. / Makers / [date] / Oswestry. More legible examples can be found on works photographs of other Cambrian Railway wagons.

 

[corneliuslundie]

I did wonder, but was surprised to see a Cambrian builder's plate as well as an ownership plate.

But that really puts the cat among the pigeons, as the only other batch of 15 ton wagons acquired by the Cambrian at that time is that with the plate shown below , which looks to me like a Pickering plate, and these were built by Pickering and presumably financed by the Scottish Wagon Co..

 

I have just looked at the article on these wagons by Stephen Bell in Welsh Railways Archive. He states correctly that Nos 2450-2499 were built by the Cambrian but also gives a reference to a Pickering order for 2400-2449 (University of Glasgow Archive Services; UBG12/7/7, R Y Pickering Card Order Book Vol. 5, Jan 1902-Dec 1904.)

Or is the reference in the history wrong?

Jonathan

Edited December 24, 2021 by corneliuslundie
Corrected error

[ardbealach]

Reference is also made to the Scottish Wagon Company in John Thomas’s ‘North British Railway’ Volume One.  Thomas goes on to say in his book…

 

‘The Scottish Wagon Company did not build wagons.  It was a hire purchase finance company founded in Edinburgh in 1861 for the purpose of advancing funds to coal owners and others who wanted wagons but did not have ready cash to pay for them.  Its terms were savage, its methods ruthless.  Customers were given five years to repay their loans in quarterly instalments at ten per cent interest, and if an instalment was not paid within fourteen days of its due date a further ten per cent was charged.  In the event of a default the wagons could be repossessed by the company.  Not surprisingly, the wagon company prospered.  Its original capital of £30,000 quickly rose to £180,000 and its shareholders pocketed a dividend of twelve and a half per cent’.

 

There was a bit more to the story of the Scottish Wagon Company, which came out in a cross examination at an enquiry into the financial difficulties of the NBR at that time.  A NBR shareholder, James White of Overtoun, was the owner of the prosperous chemical firm of J & J White of Rutherglen in Glasgow, and a former lawyer.  He had also been a director, and deputy chairman, of the Glasgow and South Western Railway,   

 

In cross examination the NBR Company Accountant, J.P. Lythgoe, was obliged to admit that the Scottish Wagon Company had been founded by no less a person than himself.  An extract from the NBR minutes of the cross examination, and quoted by Thomas in his book :

 

Lythgoe :   The North British eventually required money to pay for their wagon stock, and leases on this principle were negotiated through the wagon company.

 

White :     By whom?

 

Lythgoe :   By Mr.Hurst and Mr.Nairne (the former North British secretary) on the one hand, and the directors of the Scottish Wagon Company on the other.

 

White :     Who were the directors of the Scottish Wagon Company?

 

Lythgoe :   At the present time they are Bailie Fanshaw, William Beattie, James Ritchie, Charles McGibbon, Walter McClelland and William Hurst, locomotive superintendent.

 

John Thomas goes on to say :

 

‘Other prominent NB officers, among them the general manager, the passenger manager, and chief civil engineer, were associated with him (Hurst) in the business.  William Hurst, as locomotive superintendent of the North British, had conducted negotiations with William Hurst, chairman of the Scottish Wagon Company, in deals which could not fail to put money - North British money - into the pockets of highly placed NB officials.

 

White’s inquisitors wanted to know if all the wagons represented by the £216,000 debt (of the NB) had in fact been delivered, suspecting that some of them were paper wagons.  But the witnesses were all adamant that all the wagons were indeed running on North British metals.  According to them the Scottish Wagon Company, far from milking the North British, was almost a philanthropic institution bent on helping the ailing North British through its difficult financial patches.’ (Alisdair)

[corneliuslundie]

Very interesting. Many thanks for the post.

Jonathan