Scottish LNER wagons hired to Private Owners

[Rail-Online]

Hi,

This was in the corner of a neg taken at Portabello on Sepember 19, 1929. It is a rare glimpse of some of the ex NBR 8/10T minerals hired to coal merchants.  Does anyone know who they were and the home location for the one on the far right (starts with SL - Slateford)?

Tony

 

 

[Compound2632]

There are photos of these characteristic Scottish mineral wagons thirled to these two firms in J. Hooper, Wagons on the LNER No. 1: North British (Irwell Press, 1991), p. 45:

• In LNER livery in September 1930 just as seen in your photo, freshly painted. Wagon No. 735028. W.B&Co.Ld. is said to be William Baird; wagon built in 1908 and worked from the Gavell Colliery until withdrawal in 1942.
• In NBR livery - giving greater prominence to the firm's name, company identification being just by the solebar numberplate and trefoil on the door, with paint date 5-5-24, apparently photographed then. J.N.&Co.Ld. is James Nimmo & Co., Slamannan Colliery (giving you your SL). 

Both these are 8 ton wagons; I note the W.B. one on your photo is 10 tons but otherwise looks the same. There is another 1924 photo of a W.B. 8 ton wagon, in NB lettering style, NB numberplate, but without the trefoil, labelled Bothwell Collieries, as is a 16-ton 8-plank wagon, NBR Dia. 97 / LNER Dia. 26B; there's also one of these 16 ton wagons written up for J.N&Co. 

 

Leaves me wondering if these were the only two firms on the NBR continuing to thirl wagons into the LNER period, or at least to do so in sufficient quantity to be photographed?

[watfordtmc]

There is also a short note on ‘thirling’ in the Scottish ‘Tatlow’ (see Ref).

 

My reading of this suggests that the arrangement was not a hire, but an agreement by the NBR to purchase wagons, seemingly from the trader initially, and to supply sufficient wagons to meet the traders’ needs during the period of the agreement which could be up to 25 years.

In return the NB could use the wagons elsewhere, if not required for the trader’s traffic, and the trader had to undertake to send their whole traffic by the NBR (and not support the **l***n*** …).

 

Peter Tatlow suggests that the only agreements which extended into the LNER period were with Baird’s and Nimmo; Baird’s having wagons marked for Bothwell Collieries as well as Gavell/Kilsyth, and Nimmo for Slamannan, as noted by @Compound2632 in their response.

 

Despite the note suggesting the agreements came to an end in the ‘late 1920’s’ there is an image of an newly painted 8-ton wagon (NB Dia 1) as LNE 746803 marked for Nimmo and stated to be dated 1930, which suggests the arrangements lasted rather longer, as also noted by @Compound2632.

 

Reference

LNER Wagons Volume 3; LNER Scottish Area etc, Tatlow P, Wild Swan Publications (Didcot) 2009.  pp 5-6 for note on thirling, pp 21 for image of 746803.

 

Regards

TMc

17/01/2022

 

[Compound2632]

20 minutes ago, watfordtmc said:

There is also a short note on ‘thirling’ in the Scottish ‘Tatlow’ (see Ref).

 

Thanks, I don't (yet) have that volume of Tatlow.

 

I looked thirling up when it came up in a previous discussion. The term originates in Scottish feudal law: a tenant was bound - thirled - to have his wheat milled at the lord's mill and no other. So I suppose that the origin may be that the railway's customers were bound to use the railway company's wagons and not their own; hence having particular company wagons assigned to and lettered for their traffic. But why this should apply to certain colliery owners only, I did not discover.

[bécasse]

2 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

But why this should apply to certain colliery owners only, I did not discover.

Doubtless a commercially attractive proposition to both parties which may well be linked to the seasonal nature of certain coal traffic, particularly in household coal.

[Nick Holliday]

There is an excellent article by E McKenna in Issue 34 of the much-missed Railway Archive, covering the wider issue of Private Traders' Wagons in Scotland.  Thirling was introduced by the NBR in 1887, partly with a 'political' intent, as the agreements usually included a clause that the trader would oppose, or at least not support, any proposal by the other company for any new scheme in the area. Eventually the NBR had 7,662 thirled wagons, and the Caledonian 4,770, for eight coal masters. In 1892 the warring parties agreed to stop the practice, and the CR, with shorter contracts, ran theirs until around 1911, whereas the NBR, with 25 year contracts, lasted longer.  Some where extended, as with Nimmo and Baird, because the contracts were sometimes open ended, based upon the lifetime of the coal lease, and it is believed the Baird arrangement only finished in 1938, with the formation of Bairds and Scottish Steel Ltd.

[Compound2632]

Very interesting. I had supposed it was a primordial practice! But I see how the term keeps its original meaning: these coal masters were seen by the railway companies at least as their feudal tenants, bound to use the company's wagons only and abjure the other company. I suppose the coal masters must have been offered very favourable terms.