Boat Trains

[C126]

Relating to this topic, one should mention the Fridays-only 'India Mail' (I am not sure which ports were used for England/France) that ran from London to Brindisi, for connections to Bombay/Mumbai.

 

From my beloved Newhaven Marine, there was a sleeper service to meet the ferry that ran to Scotland.  Cited on RMWeb in other posts, I regret I can not remember the details of this either.  Perhaps someone can fill in the details.  Sorry if too O.T.

[Andy Hayter]

http://trains-worldexpresses.com/400/403.htm

 

India Mail info

[C126]

Knew I had the photostat somewhere:

 

India Mail Murray 1891.pdf

 

Sorry, do not know how to get P.D.F. files to 'display' in a post.  Strangely, it does not name the train as the 'India Mail'.

[dcordingley]

"Backtrack" magazine had an interesting couple of articles on UK boat trains in the recent January and February editions. But neither article answered a fairly longstanding query I have had about BR's arguably most famous boat train - the "Golden Arrow". I wonder, therefore, if I might tap into others' knowledge to provide an answer?

 

During the period 1952-1959 the "Arrow" ran Victoria to Folkestone on its down run, and Dover to Victoria on the return up service. (Outside this period, both up and down trains seem to have been routed via Dover.) The empty Pullman stock was transferred between Folkestone Harbour and Dover Marine to facilitate this arrangement. But why was this routing adopted? I don't think tides can have been a factor, as both Dover and Folkestone would surely have been non-tidal ports long before the 1950s.  Something to do with pathing issues, then, whether on rail or at sea?

 

Can anyone shed any light on this? 

 

David C.     

 

 

[bécasse]

"Pathing" issues at sea (and in harbours), different vessels were used for inward and outward workings.

 

Scheduling ships could be just as complex as scheduling trains, particularly as suitable berthing slots were very limited. At one period Oostende-Dover car ferries sailed 15 minutes earlier on certain dates, a fact which used to puzzle people but was the result of the need to free up the slot for an incoming ferry which only operated on those dates.

 

I can also remember being at a scheduling meeting at Holyhead to decide the winter timetable for the Dun Laoghaire route and arguing almost till I was blue in the face that they had two ships using the same slot at the same time on the first morning, but was over-ruled by the "experts" who had been doing planning for years. Unsurprisingly, a week before the timetable change a notice arrived from Holyhead noting that operational problems meant that some timings would have to be "adjusted" on the morning of the timetable change!

[Fat Controller]

On 01/02/2022 at 16:15, C126 said:

Relating to this topic, one should mention the Fridays-only 'India Mail' (I am not sure which ports were used for England/France) that ran from London to Brindisi, for connections to Bombay/Mumbai.

 

From my beloved Newhaven Marine, there was a sleeper service to meet the ferry that ran to Scotland.  Cited on RMWeb in other posts, I regret I can not remember the details of this either.  Perhaps someone can fill in the details.  Sorry if too O.T.

Didn't the sleeper run as a 'Motorail' in later years? Newhaven- Stirling, perhaps?

[The Lurker]

50 minutes ago, dcordingley said:

"Backtrack" magazine had an interesting couple of articles on UK boat trains in the recent January and February editions. But neither article answered a fairly longstanding query I have had about BR's arguably most famous boat train - the "Golden Arrow". I wonder, therefore, if I might tap into others' knowledge to provide an answer?

 

During the period 1952-1959 the "Arrow" ran Victoria to Folkestone on its down run, and Dover to Victoria on the return up service. (Outside this period, both up and down trains seem to have been routed via Dover.) The empty Pullman stock was transferred between Folkestone Harbour and Dover Marine to facilitate this arrangement. But why was this routing adopted? I don't think tides can have been a factor, as both Dover and Folkestone would surely have been non-tidal ports long before the 1950s.  Something to do with pathing issues, then, whether on rail or at sea?

 

Can anyone shed any light on this? 

 

David C.     

 

 

SREMG seems to suggest that the reason was that SNCF wanted to use only one set of stock for the Fleche d'Or which meant that timings had to be changed, including a switch to the down Golden Arrow terminating at Folkestone. I suspect that the points that Becasse makes above re Ferry slots also had something to do with it because otherwise it is not immediately clear to me why the change would necessitate the change in port in England

 

https://sremg.org.uk/misc/garrow.shtml

 

[C126]

2 hours ago, Fat Controller said:

Didn't the sleeper run as a 'Motorail' in later years? Newhaven- Stirling, perhaps?

 

That was it.  Many thanks for jogging my memory.

 

Incidentally, there was an issue of 'Traction' featuring 73-hauled Boat trains, I think, a few years ago, without wishing to reopen the '71 vs 73 debate'.  I did not read it, but I think the issue description said something like the photographer had 'gone in search of them' (73-hauled trains, that is).

[Andy Hayter]

@The Lurker

 

The same would apply of course on the UK side.  Deliver your prestige passengers at the boat in Folkestone.  Boat sets off as soon as the entourage is on board.

 

Shuttle carriages to Dover ready to pick up the prestige passengers off the boat as soon as it arrives.

 

Depart immediately while the other passengers coming off the boat are waiting to go through customs.

 

That arrangement required two boats but only one train on each side of the Channel.  The boats would have been sailing anyway and it was only necessary to set aside a Golden Arrow/Fleche d'Or saloon for these prestige travellers.

Edited February 4, 2022 by Andy Hayter
clarification

[pH]

On 01/02/2022 at 04:12, The Stationmaster said:

Heading west there were boat trains (some named - including 'The Irish Mail') from Euston to Holyhead,  Euston to Heysham to connect with the Irish ferry and also at one time the ferry to the Isle of Man,  Glasgow to Stranraer to connect with the ferry,  Euston to Liverpool to provide a link to the Isle of Man ferry (I think it ran to/from Lime Street so wasn't a proper boat train). 

There was also the ‘Northern Irishman’ from Euston to Stranraer, run from Dumfries to Stranraer via the Port Road until that closed. After that it ran via Mauchline and Ayr, for a while with a Kingmoor Britannia, piloted south from Ayr by a Black 5.

 

There were ferry services from Ardrossan, with connecting trains from Glasgow, to  Belfast and the Isle of Man. The Belfast service finished in 1976 and the Isle of Man service in the 1980s.

 

Ardrossan was the Scottish port for an early London-Glasgow rail/boat service, from the conversion of the Ardrossan Railway to standard gauge and the opening of the Glasgow, Paisley, Kilmarnock and Ayr from Kilwinning to Glasgow in 1840. Trains from Glasgow to Ardrossan connected with a boat to Liverpool (later Fleetwood) and onward rail service to London. Of course, this service ended with the completion of through rail routes.

Edited February 4, 2022 by pH
Missing word

[Compound2632]

22 minutes ago, pH said:

There was also the ‘Northern Irishman’ from Euston to Stranraer, run from Dumfries to Stranraer via the Port Road until that closed. After that it ran via Mauchline and Ayr, for a while with a Kingmoor Britannia, piloted south from Ayr by a Black 5.

 

There were ferry services from Ardrossan, with connecting trains from Glasgow, to  Belfast and the Isle of Man. The Belfast service finished in 1976 and the Isle of Man service in the 1980s.

 

Ardrossan was the Scottish port for an early London-Glasgow rail/boat service, from the conversion of the Ardrossan Railway to standard gauge and the opening of the Glasgow, Paisley, Kilmarnock and Ayr from Kilwinning to Glasgow in 1840. Trains from Glasgow to Ardrossan connected with a boat to Liverpool (later Fleetwood) and onward rail service to London. Of course, this service ended with the completion of through rail routes.

 

For Irish Sea services, both to Ireland and the Isle of Man, one should not overlook Fleetwood and Heysham, served by Boat Trains from Euston and St Pancras respectively. On both routes, the trains included bogie OCTs adapted to carry luggage containers that were transferred to the ships. These services were introduced in the first decade of the 20th century; I'm unsure to what extent they were resumed after the Great War or continued into the grouping period.

[MarkC]

Have the Manchester-Heysham "Belfast Boat Express" services been mentioned yet? The last regular steam-hauled named trains in service, pre-preservation days, of course...

[roythebus1]

All of which reminds me of the tale of the very well-to-do Lady who was on one of these ships, in the days when one required one penny to use the lavatories (or bathrooms in modern parlance).

 

Being a Lady she didn't have coins of low denominations, so needing to "go" she politely asked a steward if he could assist bey lending her a penny. To which he replied "madam, this is Cunard, not P&O".

 

 

There used to be a duty at Addiscombe when I was a driver there that had "boat train" connections. We worked down rush hour train to Sevenoaks and would usually pass the UP "Night Ferry" between  Polhill tunnel and Sevenoaks. Highlight of the day.

Edited February 5, 2022 by roythebus1

[The Stationmaster]

17 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

 

For Irish Sea services, both to Ireland and the Isle of Man, one should not overlook Fleetwood and Heysham, served by Boat Trains from Euston and St Pancras respectively. On both routes, the trains included bogie OCTs adapted to carry luggage containers that were transferred to the ships. These services were introduced in the first decade of the 20th century; I'm unsure to what extent they were resumed after the Great War or continued into the grouping period.

Euston - Heysham lasted well into BR days but might only have been to connect with an IoM sailing (as I mentioned previously).  Heysham retained a train/ferry connection much later as it was the ferry route we used the last time we travelled to the Isle of Man and it still exists with a connecting(ish) rail service from Lancaster but no longer any through train from London.

[dcordingley]

Thanks for the various responses to my query about the "Golden Arrow" routings - here's my take on all this. I don't think that BR's and SNCF's (entirely reasonable) requirement to each use one set of stock explains the Dover/Folkestone change, as departure times from both Victoria and Gare du Nord are such that each set could easily make a daily return trip from London or Paris on the respective sides of the Channel. The likely factor is therefore access to berths at Dover and Folkestone. Given how busy Dover could become (and indeed remains to this day), it seems likely that the quieter port of Folkestone was regarded as a more dependable departure port in the middle of the day - after all, you wouldn't want your well heeled "Arrow" passengers waiting on the quayside for a suitable berth to become available for their ferry.  Interesting to learn how "pathing" problems are not just restricted to railways...

 

David C.   

[roythebus1]

The other boat train service we've forgotten about has just been re-introduced, that on the Isle of wight. with the new half-hourly trains ervice, I beleive all trains now connect with boats during the summer peak season.

[Morello Cherry]

On 01/02/2022 at 13:12, The Stationmaster said:

Heading north there was, of course,  'The Norseman' from Kings Cross to Tyne Commission Quay to connect with the ship to Norway.  I believe at one time it only stopped intermediately at York to pick up passengers when heading north or to set down passengers when heading south but I haven't checked to see if it was more widely advertised in its later years. 

 

 

 

The Newcastle boat trains are an interesting one and one I have a personal interest in. Family history has that a relative left Petrograd during the Russian revolution and ended up in London via Finland and Norway and then to Newcastle on the SS Jupiter and then to London arriving end of 1917 (but before February 1918). I've come across a few photos of the Tyne Commission Quay and photos of the boat trains from there but that wasn't built until 1928 so it has me wondering where they would have disembarked in 1918 and how he might have made his way to London from there. Were there boat trains? I'd be interested if anyone has any knowledge or recommendations for readings.

 

I appreciate that this is a 100+ year old family story and so things may have got mixed up in the last 105 years.