Coaches and carriages

[Newbie2020]

Hi,

 

Since starting Lyneworth I've built up a number of Locos and the knowledge that goes with them. I am now in the position where I have more locos than coaches! Therefore I need to build up my coaching stock!

 

My question is, does anyone know of a good book or other resource where I can find out more about the different types and usages?

 

Cheers

 

Clive

[Fat Controller]

To narrow things down a bit; what part of the country are you modelling, and when.

[Newbie2020]

GWR/BR late steam early diesel but interested to find out more generally really.

[ikcdab]

id start with Parkins Mk1 coaches. Excellent publication and well worth it.

 

[Aire Head]

So at a stab sound like your looking at the early 1960s?

 

What sort of formations/trains are you looking at information for? Are you wanting to source only from RTR (I'm guessing at 4mm?) Or are you willing to kitbuild?

 

It may seem like a lot of question but it all helps people give you the best information 

[Newbie2020]

1 minute ago, Aire Head said:

So at a stab sound like your looking at the early 1960s?

 

What sort of formations/trains are you looking at information for? Are you wanting to source only from RTR (I'm guessing at 4mm?) Or are you willing to kitbuild?

 

It may seem like a lot of question but it all helps people give you the best information 

Yes 50's to 60's (although there will be the odd 'non era' interloper as well!!), 4mm and leaning to RTR at the moment as I've got my work cut out rebuilding Lyneworth from scratch!

 

But want to learn generally about them too!

 

[Aire Head]

2 minutes ago, Newbie2020 said:

Yes 50's to 60's (although there will be the odd 'non era' interloper as well!!), 4mm and leaning to RTR at the moment as I've got my work cut out rebuilding Lyneworth from scratch!

 

But want to learn generally about them too!

 

 

Well that all helps.

 

Where do you want to start what types of trains do you want to run? 

[Newbie2020]

2 minutes ago, Aire Head said:

 

Well that all helps.

 

Where do you want to start what types of trains do you want to run? 

I wan to be able to run most things from branch line to express. with some ;light freight but thats another story!

[The Johnster]

The following is a basic and rough starter guide to WR coaching stock; one can basically divide WR tranistion period coaching stock into 3 fundamental types, gangwayed, non-gangwayed, and auto trailers,

 

Gangwayed stock has gangway connections at each end, and usually at least one lavatory compartment.  It will include side corridor compartment, centre aisle open saloon, catering, and sleeping vehicles, and is used on long distance main line trains.

 

Non-gangwayed stock, sometimes described as 'suburban' or 'compartment' stock, has unconnected compartments across the full width of the coach, and is used on shorter distance trains where lavatory and catering provision are not needed and a high seating capacity is; I've just described suburban commuter work, but such coaches were also used on branch line and some main line short distance stopping trains.  Each compartment has a central access door flanked by two windows on each side of the coach.

 

Auto trailers, push-pull coaches, are probably more common on the WR than anywhere else, and may be hauled or propelled by a suitably equipped locomotive.  They have open saloons and a driving cab at the leading end from which they are driven when the train is being propelled.  They are correctly associated with branch lines, but in reality the majority of their work was short haul main line and suburban.

 

Ok, to enlarge on this, within the previous description of 'basic and rough' guide, gangwayed stock consisted of several types, the most up-to-date of which for your period are BR standard mk1 64' designs  In 00 RTR these are produced to a very high standard by Hornby and Bachmann.  Prior to these being built, the latest were what were called (after their designer) 'Hawkworth 64' coaches, which looked a little different with half-domed roof ends and slightly smaller windows; Hornby make a very good range of these to a high standard.  These were built between 1941 and about 1954, but were being withdrawn by the end of steam on the region in 1965. 

 

Next back in time are the 'Collett (designer again) 60' 'sunshine stock' coaches from the 1930s, which were flat ended; Bachmann do them but the toolings are a bit long in the tooth now, being originally Mainline models.  Only side corridor coaches are produced, an all-third and a brake composite.  They lasted up to about 1962.  Older than these were the 'Collett 57' bowended' coaches, built in the 1920s.  These are produced to a good standard by Hornby, and several types are available.  They lasted until about 1960. 

 

As to non-gangwayed 'suburban' stock, there is less RTR variety.  Produced from about 1953 were the 57' and 64' BR mk1 'suburbans', available from Bachmann, but these are again rather dated ex-Mainline toolings.  Next are the Collett 57' types, to a high standard, from Hornby, which lasted up to around 1962 or so, but the introduction of high-desity dmus between 1958 and 62 decimated both types.  Some of the BR types had very short service lives.

 

Auto trailers, again taking the most recent and working backwards through time; we start with Hawkworth 64' 'diagram A38' trailers, built during 1948-50 and lasting until the end of steam.  A good model is made by Bachmann.  The only other RTR auto trailer is a 'diagram A30' Collett type from 1930, with toplight windows, from Hornby but originally an Airfix product and not really up to the standard of modern toolings.  These lasted until about 1962.

 

 

This is an overview of what is available currently from the RTR manufacturers.  A squiz on the Bay of e will turn up Collett 'Centenary' gangwayed coaches, a brake 3rd and a composite, built in 1935 and a somewhat individualistic design with recessed vestibule doors and, originally, Beclawat slide-down windows; these were a common feature on Continental stock for many years.  They are an old Airfix tooing, see my earlier comments about older toolings, and although Airfix and others produced them in BR liveries, they were rebuilt post-war without the Beclawats, which were replaced by the 4-panel sliding ventilator windows that were common on most British stock by then, up to the earliest BR mk2 stock, and the RTR offering does not feature this rebuilt type of window.  Also dating back to Airfix days is a Collett 60' bowended 'B' set.  B sets (a bit of a modellers' term for them, they were only called that in the Bristol Division) are a GW/WR speciality, two non-gangwayed brake composites permanently close coupled at the compartment ends with the brake ends 'outwards', and used on branch and main line stopping trains.

 

Other types, and there were plenty of them both previous to and during the period I've mentioned and lasting into your period, are available if you are prepared to build kits.  There are no GW/WR catering or sleeping vehicles other than BR mk1 for your period.

 

More locos than coaches in not an unusual situation for a modeller, Newbie 2020, in fact my current score is 16-12 to locomotives...  Main line trains of gangwayed stock were, for your steam/diesel transition period, mostly mk1s for the principal trains, with the named trains having rakes of BR's 1958 version of chocolate and cream livery, but stoppers and cross-country trains would feature Hawkworth and both types of Collett stock, often mixed.  Inter-regional trains were like this and a counterbalance working from the destination region would work a reciprocal service of whatever stock that region was using, so a good bit of variety is possible.  B sets were regarded as trains within themselves, and were usually (not always, but usually) run as such, and the Hornby Collett 57' bowended coaches ran in 4-coach sets marshalled BT/C/C/BT, sometimes two or even 3 sets to a train, in the London and the Birmingham divisions, but the sets were broken up in their later days a bit and running them individually under Rule 1 is fine.  Hornby produce them with different running numbers to provide for differnt sets.

 

Auto trains were operated by mechanical linkage beneath the coaches and the loco, with a degree of play having to be incorporated to allow for curvature and changes of gradient.  This meant that, as the regulator linkage moved the regulator in the loco cab when the driver moved the regulator lever in the trailer driving cab, significant amounts of control movement were lost in each coupling of the linkage between trailers and between trailers and locomotives.  Moreover the linkage was 'handed' so that the trailers could only be coupled to the loco with the linkage working, in 'auto' mode, facing with the driving cab away from the locomotive.  No more than 2 trailers could be coupled to an end of the locomotive as movement of the regulator aboard the locomotive was insufficient to drive the train, so trains could be seen with loco + 1 trailer attached either end of the loco, 2 trailers attached either end of the loco, 1 trailer attached bunker end and 1 smokebox end, 2 attached bunker or smokebox end and 1 at the other end, or 2 attached at each end, a 4-trailer 'sandwich'.

 

It's a big subject which I've only touched on, hope it is of some help!

 

 

[Nearholmer]

Monster (I meant ‘Johnster’, but autocorrect has its own ideas!) gives a good, practical overview for your purposes, but his final point is very true indeed.

 

If you want a “helicopter view” of the subject, which I would advocate obtaining before getting enmeshed in the detail of particular coaches, at particular times, built for particular companies, look out for a book by Jenkinson called something like ‘The History of the British Railway Carriage 1900-1953’ or ‘The History of the British Railway Carriage in the Twentieth Century’ I think it’s been published in a single volume, then an enlarged version in two volumes, and you can find secondhand copies at low prices.

 

 

Edited February 4, 2022 by Nearholmer

[ejstubbs]

37 minutes ago, Nearholmer said:

I think it’s been published in a single volume, then an enlarged version in two volumes

 

British Railway Carriages of the Twentieth Century Volume 1 The End of an Era, 1901-22 was published in 1988

British Railway Carriages of the Twentieth Century Volume 2 The Years of Consolidation, 1923-53 was published in 1990

The History of British Railway Carriages, 1900-53 was published in 1996

 

Also available from eBay, Abebooks*, independent bookshops** etc etc.

 

* Owned by Amazon

** Who very often list on Abebooks

[Nick Holliday]

I haven't got a copy, so I am not sure if it fits your bill, but British Railways GWR/LNER Pre-Nationalisation Coaching Stock: Volume 1 GWR/LNER by Hugh Longworth covers pre-nationalisation stock which survived into BR days.  There is a companion LMS/Southern book as well.

[Newbie2020]

6 hours ago, The Johnster said:

The following is a basic and rough starter guide to WR coaching stock; one can basically divide WR tranistion period coaching stock into 3 fundamental types, gangwayed, non-gangwayed, and auto trailers,

 

Gangwayed stock has gangway connections at each end, and usually at least one lavatory compartment.  It will include side corridor compartment, centre aisle open saloon, catering, and sleeping vehicles, and is used on long distance main line trains.

 

Non-gangwayed stock, sometimes described as 'suburban' or 'compartment' stock, has unconnected compartments across the full width of the coach, and is used on shorter distance trains where lavatory and catering provision are not needed and a high seating capacity is; I've just described suburban commuter work, but such coaches were also used on branch line and some main line short distance stopping trains.  Each compartment has a central access door flanked by two windows on each side of the coach.

 

Auto trailers, push-pull coaches, are probably more common on the WR than anywhere else, and may be hauled or propelled by a suitably equipped locomotive.  They have open saloons and a driving cab at the leading end from which they are driven when the train is being propelled.  They are correctly associated with branch lines, but in reality the majority of their work was short haul main line and suburban.

 

Ok, to enlarge on this, within the previous description of 'basic and rough' guide, gangwayed stock consisted of several types, the most up-to-date of which for your period are BR standard mk1 64' designs  In 00 RTR these are produced to a very high standard by Hornby and Bachmann.  Prior to these being built, the latest were what were called (after their designer) 'Hawkworth 64' coaches, which looked a little different with half-domed roof ends and slightly smaller windows; Hornby make a very good range of these to a high standard.  These were built between 1941 and about 1954, but were being withdrawn by the end of steam on the region in 1965. 

 

Next back in time are the 'Collett (designer again) 60' 'sunshine stock' coaches from the 1930s, which were flat ended; Bachmann do them but the toolings are a bit long in the tooth now, being originally Mainline models.  Only side corridor coaches are produced, an all-third and a brake composite.  They lasted up to about 1962.  Older than these were the 'Collett 57' bowended' coaches, built in the 1920s.  These are produced to a good standard by Hornby, and several types are available.  They lasted until about 1960. 

 

As to non-gangwayed 'suburban' stock, there is less RTR variety.  Produced from about 1953 were the 57' and 64' BR mk1 'suburbans', available from Bachmann, but these are again rather dated ex-Mainline toolings.  Next are the Collett 57' types, to a high standard, from Hornby, which lasted up to around 1962 or so, but the introduction of high-desity dmus between 1958 and 62 decimated both types.  Some of the BR types had very short service lives.

 

Auto trailers, again taking the most recent and working backwards through time; we start with Hawkworth 64' 'diagram A38' trailers, built during 1948-50 and lasting until the end of steam.  A good model is made by Bachmann.  The only other RTR auto trailer is a 'diagram A30' Collett type from 1930, with toplight windows, from Hornby but originally an Airfix product and not really up to the standard of modern toolings.  These lasted until about 1962.

 

 

This is an overview of what is available currently from the RTR manufacturers.  A squiz on the Bay of e will turn up Collett 'Centenary' gangwayed coaches, a brake 3rd and a composite, built in 1935 and a somewhat individualistic design with recessed vestibule doors and, originally, Beclawat slide-down windows; these were a common feature on Continental stock for many years.  They are an old Airfix tooing, see my earlier comments about older toolings, and although Airfix and others produced them in BR liveries, they were rebuilt post-war without the Beclawats, which were replaced by the 4-panel sliding ventilator windows that were common on most British stock by then, up to the earliest BR mk2 stock, and the RTR offering does not feature this rebuilt type of window.  Also dating back to Airfix days is a Collett 60' bowended 'B' set.  B sets (a bit of a modellers' term for them, they were only called that in the Bristol Division) are a GW/WR speciality, two non-gangwayed brake composites permanently close coupled at the compartment ends with the brake ends 'outwards', and used on branch and main line stopping trains.

 

Other types, and there were plenty of them both previous to and during the period I've mentioned and lasting into your period, are available if you are prepared to build kits.  There are no GW/WR catering or sleeping vehicles other than BR mk1 for your period.

 

More locos than coaches in not an unusual situation for a modeller, Newbie 2020, in fact my current score is 16-12 to locomotives...  Main line trains of gangwayed stock were, for your steam/diesel transition period, mostly mk1s for the principal trains, with the named trains having rakes of BR's 1958 version of chocolate and cream livery, but stoppers and cross-country trains would feature Hawkworth and both types of Collett stock, often mixed.  Inter-regional trains were like this and a counterbalance working from the destination region would work a reciprocal service of whatever stock that region was using, so a good bit of variety is possible.  B sets were regarded as trains within themselves, and were usually (not always, but usually) run as such, and the Hornby Collett 57' bowended coaches ran in 4-coach sets marshalled BT/C/C/BT, sometimes two or even 3 sets to a train, in the London and the Birmingham divisions, but the sets were broken up in their later days a bit and running them individually under Rule 1 is fine.  Hornby produce them with different running numbers to provide for differnt sets.

 

Auto trains were operated by mechanical linkage beneath the coaches and the loco, with a degree of play having to be incorporated to allow for curvature and changes of gradient.  This meant that, as the regulator linkage moved the regulator in the loco cab when the driver moved the regulator lever in the trailer driving cab, significant amounts of control movement were lost in each coupling of the linkage between trailers and between trailers and locomotives.  Moreover the linkage was 'handed' so that the trailers could only be coupled to the loco with the linkage working, in 'auto' mode, facing with the driving cab away from the locomotive.  No more than 2 trailers could be coupled to an end of the locomotive as movement of the regulator aboard the locomotive was insufficient to drive the train, so trains could be seen with loco + 1 trailer attached either end of the loco, 2 trailers attached either end of the loco, 1 trailer attached bunker end and 1 smokebox end, 2 attached bunker or smokebox end and 1 at the other end, or 2 attached at each end, a 4-trailer 'sandwich'.

 

It's a big subject which I've only touched on, hope it is of some help!

 

 

Wow! Thankyou The Johnster! That reply was great - above and beyond!

[Newbie2020]

2 hours ago, Nearholmer said:

Monster (I meant ‘Johnster’, but autocorrect has its own ideas!) gives a good, practical overview for your purposes, but his final point is very true indeed.

 

If you want a “helicopter view” of the subject, which I would advocate obtaining before getting enmeshed in the detail of particular coaches, at particular times, built for particular companies, look out for a book by Jenkinson called something like ‘The History of the British Railway Carriage 1900-1953’ or ‘The History of the British Railway Carriage in the Twentieth Century’ I think it’s been published in a single volume, then an enlarged version in two volumes, and you can find secondhand copies at low prices.

 

 

Yes I think thats what I want to do  first - a general history and types  etc then look closer at the type used in the era of Lyneworth. Thanks

[bécasse]

Just to add that, particularly in the early 1960s, it wasn't unknown for auto trailers to be hauled, most commonly singly, by a non-auto fitted loco (eg a 57xx pannier) which obviously had to run round at each end of its journey. Mostly it would happen because of the non-availability of a rostered auto-fitted loco, but non-availability of suitable coaching stock (or diesel units) could be a reason too (just as the use of odd corridor coaches became commonplace on secondary and branch line services in the 1960s). 

[BernardTPM]

Though quite old now, the second edition of Great Western Coaches from 1890 by Michael Harris is very good.

[Newbie2020]

Tracked a couple of those down - bargains on second hand book sites!! That should keep me going for a bit!

 

Thanks every one

 

Clive