retrofiting signals - advice needed.

[2E Sub Shed]

Would there also be a relay cabinet near the signal ?

[Horsehay Railway Modeller]

2 hours ago, 2E Sub Shed said:

Would there also be a relay cabinet near the signal ?

Good question, I would guess so but again I am a bit clueless when it comes to pw and signalling. 

 

The shunt signals are controlled from the lever frame. But the starters would be from a box. As my layout is fictional but vaugley Shropshire I'm going to say it is controlled from Severn bridge junction in shrewsbury. 

 

I'm guessing a relay box of some sort is required somewhere on the layout 

[The Stationmaster]

On 06/02/2022 at 14:50, bécasse said:

The BR(S) started to use GPLs in the Kent Coast schemes of 1959 as Sittingbourne box and the Sheerness branch definitely had them (I have my own photos to prove it) but I am not certain that motor-discs weren't used at some of the other boxes in that scheme. Motor-discs were definitely used at Cannon Street (new box December 1957). GPLs were used in the 1962 Kent schemes even though junction indicators were still 3-lamp SR ones (the first 5-lamp one that I noted was a replacement at Lewisham c1965). However, with the very special exception of the Sheerness branch, they were all double-track routes, and the Southern Region simply wouldn't have got the financial authorisation to install colour lights on a single track branch line at that era, a requirement to formulate a closure proposal would have been the most likely response to a request (and, indeed, the majority of such lines did close in the early 1960s). A small yard on a single track branch would have been worked using an Annett's Key on the staff (or equivalent arrangement with the more likely Tyer's token) to unlock the ground frame, with signals neither required nor provided.

 

I forgot to mention before that the knee frame might well have been in a small hut of pregrouping design but certainly could have been free-standing, exposed to the elements.

Hither Green new power box  commissioned 1962 as part of Kent coast Phase II resignalling used electrically worked discs.  Barnes Junction  commissione 1959 on the South Western also used electrically worked discs.

Edited February 7, 2022 by The Stationmaster

[bécasse]

3 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

Hither Green new power box  commissioned 1962 as part of Kent coast Phase II resignalling used electrically worked discs.  Barnes Junction  commissione 1959 on the South Western also used electrically worked discs.

The 1962 Hither Green box certainly used GPLs. Not only did I live there at the time but I am one of a small number of people who saw the two Down Elmstead Woods 3-lamp calling-on GPLs (think permissive working of passenger trains) in situ on the Sunday morning that the scheme was commissioned - they were removed the same day on the instructions of the Inspecting Officer. What is unusual is that there were examples of power-discs as well but I can't remember, 60 years on, what was installed where.

 

Both the 1959 and 1962 (Kent electrification) schemes used contractors for installation which was a big change so far as the Region was concerned but was necessary to meet timescales. Although both schemes adhered to common specifications, the actual equipment installed reflected, to some extent, the current practices of the contractor concerned. One big difference between the two schemes is that the 1962 scheme used route-setting panels throughout.

[Horsehay Railway Modeller]

Im working on some sketches to be custom made by cr signals. 

 

A few questions. im not overly familiar with signal nomenclature. I have gone with SBJ 107 for severn bridge junction number 107 is this okay for 60s wr?

 

in the example given before in this thread the red light on the subsidiary signal is blocked off, im guessing this is because the red on the main signal makes it redundant. Do i need the red on the subsidiary or am i ok with just the pivot light and the "off" light ?

 

does the subsidiary need a number plate referencing the gf (and same for the gpl). if so how should they be numbered?

 

finally is there any details / plates missing from either signal?

 

 

 

 

[Horsehay Railway Modeller]

another bit of tinkering, quick design for the fround frame and a wooden relay box. any errors thus far ?

 

 

[Michael Hodgson]

Only one of the signals can show a proceed aspect at any one time.

There's no red light on the subsidiary - the main signal red does the job.  So possible combinations of aspects are:

 

Signal A shows red, B red

A red and subsidiary, B red

A green, B red

A red, B proceed

 

The white light at the bottom right of the GPL is called a pivot light as it is always lit.

It isn't really correct to call it a pivot light on the subsidiary, as either both whites are on or both off.

 

Pull plate descriptions are wrong, you can't pull 3 & 4 at the same time as they are conflicting moves (although there should only be one loco there anyway)

 

2 requires 1

3 requires 1,2

4 requires 1,2

 

The GF needs a means of contacting the box to ask for the release.

There would be a locked/free indicator to confirm that the release has been given by the box and then No 1 lever can be pulled.

 

 

 

[Horsehay Railway Modeller]

44 minutes ago, Michael Hodgson said:

Only one of the signals can show a proceed aspect at any one time.

There's no red light on the subsidiary - the main signal red does the job.  So possible combinations of aspects are:

 

Signal A shows red, B red

A red and subsidiary, B red

A green, B red

A red, B proceed

 

The white light at the bottom right of the GPL is called a pivot light as it is always lit.

It isn't really correct to call it a pivot light on the subsidiary, as either both whites are on or both off.

 

Pull plate descriptions are wrong, you can't pull 3 & 4 at the same time as they are conflicting moves (although there should only be one loco there anyway)

 

2 requires 1

3 requires 1,2

4 requires 1,2

 

The GF needs a means of contacting the box to ask for the release.

There would be a locked/free indicator to confirm that the release has been given by the box and then No 1 lever can be pulled.

 

 

 

Thank you very much for the info. 

 

I think I had misunderstood the labelling rules, I shall correct these. 

 

Do you have any images to show how the box would be contacted and the release indicator. 

[RailWest]

If 1 is just a release, then it should be blue/brown. However in addition to being the release, it would also need to work the FPL that you need on the main line end of the crossover.

 

Would it not be valid at the time for 3 to be a 'yellow' PLS ?

[Grovenor]

Yes, if you have 3 at all then it does need to be a yellow rather than red so shunting can take place when locked in. 3 is only useful if the ground frame operator would be out of sight of the driver.

[5BarVT]

4 hours ago, Horsehay Railway Modeller said:

Do you have any images to show how the box would be contacted and the release indicator. 

If you go back to my photos on the previous page, phone will be in the cupboard.  Sorry I haven’t got one of the front, but I think it would have had a vertical sliding door (bit like a sash window) weighted so that it closed up.  To get at the phone you pushed the door down (it had a ‘shelf’ at the top for a handle) then you could lean on the shelf to hold it down whilst using the phone.

The three lever GF shows the indicators above the levers.  One will be the release, the other might be point detection (so that you know you’ve got it back properly afterwards) or it might be the signal slot (so that you know it’s come off).  If the latter, point detection could be in the release normal indication.  Don’t know what the plunger is for.  Sorry I cant remember any better.

Paul.

[The Stationmaster]

1 hour ago, 5BarVT said:

If you go back to my photos on the previous page, phone will be in the cupboard.  Sorry I haven’t got one of the front, but I think it would have had a vertical sliding door (bit like a sash window) weighted so that it closed up.  To get at the phone you pushed the door down (it had a ‘shelf’ at the top for a handle) then you could lean on the shelf to hold it down whilst using the phone.

The three lever GF shows the indicators above the levers.  One will be the release, the other might be point detection (so that you know you’ve got it back properly afterwards) or it might be the signal slot (so that you know it’s come off).  If the latter, point detection could be in the release normal indication.  Don’t know what the plunger is for.  Sorry I cant remember any better.

Paul.

The right hand indicator is for the slot on the GPL,  The left hand one above the FPL is probably a Locked/Free indicator as there doesn't seem to be an Annett's key release anywhere.  WR ground frame cabinets of that  vintage and style had hinged doors - two part doors hinged on the frame at the side of the box; they usually contained a 'phone and an Annett's Key instriument.  The 'sliding door' sash type arrangement was used in location cabinet style installation but I can't think of any that appeared in connection with the WR 1960s onwards resignalling schemes although there were still a few older ones about. 

[Horsehay Railway Modeller]

4 hours ago, Grovenor said:

Yes, if you have 3 at all then it does need to be a yellow rather than red so shunting can take place when locked in. 3 is only useful if the ground frame operator would be out of sight of the driver.

3 controls signal B the gpl. I know the move onto the main could be authorised by the shunter but i think the gpl adds interest to the model. I'm not sure I understand the " shunting when locked in". in my mind B is used to autharise a move on to the mainline which is why i wandered if it needs some form of direction arrow etc. also it is my understanding  3 is locked by 1 and 2.

 

Also if a train is shunted out onto the main with the loco at the far left of the layout and the brake van entering the main first then the driver is quite a distance from the gf.

Edited February 9, 2022 by Horsehay Railway Modeller

[Horsehay Railway Modeller]

updated drawing, again any additions let me know. for now i have left 3 red but may change it to yellow.

[RailWest]

>>>I'm not sure I understand the " shunting when locked in". in my mind B is used to autharise a move on to the mainline....

 

Indeed, but....if there is a train 'shut in' in the sidings and the signal is 'on' and showing 'red', then the train can not pass it to shunt into the sidings at the right-hand end. If the signal shows 'yellow' when 'on', then it can. Simples ! :-)

[Horsehay Railway Modeller]

39 minutes ago, RailWest said:

>>>I'm not sure I understand the " shunting when locked in". in my mind B is used to autharise a move on to the mainline....

 

Indeed, but....if there is a train 'shut in' in the sidings and the signal is 'on' and showing 'red', then the train can not pass it to shunt into the sidings at the right-hand end. If the signal shows 'yellow' when 'on', then it can. Simples ! :-)

Ah I see, perfect thank you

[Horsehay Railway Modeller]

updated:

 

[dave55uk]

Signal B, as in the diagram immediately above, would show a yellow and the lower right-hand white light when 'on'.

Both white lights for 'off' (to be able to exit the yard onto the main).

[Horsehay Railway Modeller]

I have been drawing "A" with the sub offset to the left is this okay or should it be to the front as it is in the reference photo from a few days ago? 

[The Stationmaster]

50 minutes ago, Horsehay Railway Modeller said:

I have been drawing "A" with the sub offset to the left is this okay or should it be to the front as it is in the reference photo from a few days ago? 

Doesn't really matter as there were variations although if you wish to copy the usual contemporaneous WR practice the sub was not offset in a situation like this.

 

There seems to be some confusion regarding GPL B.  As 'Dave%%uk' has explained it should be a yellow light signal in order that it can be passed in the on position when shunting within the yard and the layout suggests that such moves will be taking place.   But the lever working it will still be painted red because it is a stop signal and nota distant signals.

 

The lever leads (descriptive labels) also need correction - 1 should read 'FPL for 2';    2 should read 'Points Main to Sidings' with a line below the wording and the numeral 1 below the line; 3 should read 'GPL Sidings To Main' with a line below the wording and the numerals 1 2 below the line. (or it could just be numeral 2 on its own);   4 should read 'Subsidiary Main to Sidings' (SEE NOTE  * below) with a line and numeral(s) below similar to Lever 3.    I would be very surprised if a ground frame in that era was not released by an Annett's Key so there would be the keyhole, with cover, on the floorplate  just to the left of lever 1  (the key release instrument being in the wooden cabinet).    Depending on the period you are modelling WR signal ID plates were in black letters on white and were only 1 or 2 alpha digits - most were only one.  They were not changed to white on black until the 1990s.

 

The signal post isn't to WR style or colour scheme although I don't know of any models which are!   Colour depends to some s extent on era and the style of posts used changed in the 1980s and again, subtly in the early 1990s

 

NOTE *. It is possible, depending on the nature of the signalling on the line that lever 4 might work a slot on a signal controlled by the signal box which works the signalling on the line in which case the lead on 4 would be worded 'Slot For Signal SB J 107 Main to Sidings'  

 

The photo below shows an installation on a heritage railway so has a number of differences - for example the leads are nothing like the black on white style used by the WR and the wording is slightly different.  You can see the hole/its cover for the Annett's Key just beyond and to the left of the FPL lever (again not strictly WR arrangement bit reasonably similar).

 

 

This photo shows the WR style of lever lead and typeface.    although they are in a signal box on a heritage they were clearly produced using the original drawings (just as we did for preservation site I was once involved with) and the same style was used by the WR on ground frames as the material was weatherproof and didn't fade.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Horsehay Railway Modeller]

Thanks for all of your help Mike

 

3 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

The signal post isn't to WR style or colour scheme although I don't know of any models which are!

I have just placed an order with CR signals for some hand made ones. they wont be exactly WR but should suffice.

 

here is the final overall sketch.

3 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

The lever leads (descriptive labels) also need correction

Thank you very much for your advice - previous attempts where mainly guesswork.

obviuosly this is still just a sketch- exact details will be corrected when i make the model, and ill be sure to add a keyhole