Theatre multi lamp route indicators

[DoubleHeader]

Greetings all,

 

Can anyone tell me when/where multi lamp route indicators were first used?  and when they became widespread in the UK?

 

 

[The Stationmaster]

Definitely installed in some SR 1930s schemes.   Widely used in post war schemes depending on divergent line speeds etc so possibly late 1940s and definitely the early-mid 1950s saw them coming into widespread use.

[DoubleHeader]

That's great, I can justify using one on my late 50s layout.  Now the hunt for a small enough led matrix display to build it.

 

Many thanks,

Dave.

[Dungrange]

You can obviously get small LED matrix displays, because Absolute Aspects offer them as an add on to many of the signals in their 00 and O gauge range.  For example:

 

https://www.absoluteaspects.com/gauge-aspect-with-route-indicator-p-373.html

 

They don't seem to offer them in N gauge though.

 

[DoubleHeader]

There doesn't appear to be any matrix displays small enough.  The Absolute Aspects product seems rather over size.  I'm looking at doing a pcb with 0201 SMD LEDs in a 5x7 matrix.  Should be about 4x6mm which is getting close to scale size (I'm glad I'm not trying this for N gauge!)  Then scratch build the enclosure and drive it from an Arduino.

 

If anyone wants some let me know and I can order extra pcbs.

 

Dave.

[Dagworth]

2 minutes ago, DoubleHeader said:

There doesn't appear to be any matrix displays small enough.  The Absolute Aspects product seems rather over size.  I'm looking at doing a pcb with 0201 SMD LEDs in a 5x7 matrix.  Should be about 4x6mm which is getting close to scale size (I'm glad I'm not trying this for N gauge!)  Then scratch build the enclosure and drive it from an Arduino.

 

If anyone wants some let me know and I can order extra pcbs.

 

Dave.

yes please! I need at least 4.

 

Andi

[Michael Edge]

We have used the Absolute Aspects displays on Carlilse, these are the signals at the south end of Citadel station which show E, W or M for the route selected. The only slight snag is that the letters/numbers are not vertical but slanted, they work well though.

[DoubleHeader]

Michael,

 

They look like 14 or 16 segment displays not matrix types.  I haven't had any reply from Absolute Aspects by email or phone but from the pictures they all look rather over scale.  Are you able to measure them?

 

I'll look at the cost of having pcbs pick and place assembled vs having my slave assistant build them.  My days of having the eye sight to solder 0201 surface mount components are past, I can just still cope with 0603 but I need a stiff drink to steady my hand first.

 

I do also have some enquiries out with optoelectronics companies, hopefully one of them will come up with a suitable display.  They are made but so far I've only found red or green versions.  They might make me a sample batch with white leds if I'm lucky.

 

Dave.

[bécasse]

On 12/02/2022 at 12:57, The Stationmaster said:

Definitely installed in some SR 1930s schemes.   Widely used in post war schemes depending on divergent line speeds etc so possibly late 1940s and definitely the early-mid 1950s saw them coming into widespread use.

Definitely installed in the first SR colour light schemes of mid-1920s. If you think about it there was no other way of showing multiple routings (eg into terminal platforms), especially as those early schemes used side-by-side multiple-aspect signals for junctions rather than lunar lights.

[Michael Edge]

2 hours ago, DoubleHeader said:

Michael,

 

They look like 14 or 16 segment displays not matrix types.  I haven't had any reply from Absolute Aspects by email or phone but from the pictures they all look rather over scale.  Are you able to measure them?

 

 

 

Not just at the moment - they are about 750 miles away! AA built the signals for us as well so I didn't have any dimensions for them.

We were far more concerned to get them working than absolute dimensional accuracy.

[The Stationmaster]

1 hour ago, bécasse said:

Definitely installed in the first SR colour light schemes of mid-1920s. If you think about it there was no other way of showing multiple routings (eg into terminal platforms), especially as those early schemes used side-by-side multiple-aspect signals for junctions rather than lunar lights.

There were actually at least two other ways of showing multiple routes.  Electric stencil type indicators had appeared before the Great War and were in everyday use as early as 1909.  Projector type indicators definitely predated multi-lamp theatre indicators on the LMS being installed by Westinghouse on the Manchester Victoria and Exchange scheme between 1927 and the final stage of commissioning in 1929. (And which lasted long enough for me to photograph one in the 1960s).   So at least two ways of showing multiple routes by the time the early SR schemes had reached any of the terminal stations.

[bécasse]

1 hour ago, The Stationmaster said:

There were actually at least two other ways of showing multiple routes.  Electric stencil type indicators had appeared before the Great War and were in everyday use as early as 1909.  Projector type indicators definitely predated multi-lamp theatre indicators on the LMS being installed by Westinghouse on the Manchester Victoria and Exchange scheme between 1927 and the final stage of commissioning in 1929. (And which lasted long enough for me to photograph one in the 1960s).   So at least two ways of showing multiple routes by the time the early SR schemes had reached any of the terminal stations.

I have to admit having forgotten the use of stencil type indicators (for main running signals), but the earliest SR schemes pre-dated the Westinghouse installations at Manchester, the major scheme at Cannon Street was inaugurated in summer 1926 and it wasn't the first (that being between Holborn and Elephant & Castle, inaugurated earlier in that year and including the first-ever 4-aspect signals).  I have (temporarily) forgotten who supplied the earliest schemes on the SR but it wasn't Westinghouse. One oddity to today's eyes was the lack of signal number plates on the earliest schemes as installed, although the need for them was quickly recognised.

Edited February 16, 2022 by bécasse

[DoubleHeader]

I have made a Platform OFF signal before by drilling 0.3mm holes on a 0.5mm pitch then backlighting it with a single LED to make the stencil look like a matrix.  Finished signal was about 6 x 3.5mm.  It's easy with a milling machine, not so easy by hand!

 

Dave.

[DoubleHeader]

Thanks for the various assistance.  I have now built an LED matrix display and driving it from an Arduino it can display any alpha numeric or other symbol I code.  I didn't go down the custom pcb route in the end as the cost was prohibative.  Now I just need to decide if I'm naming the lines: Fast, Slow; Main, Relief or Local, Through.

 

Dave.

[Mike Storey]

1 hour ago, DoubleHeader said:

Thanks for the various assistance.  I have now built an LED matrix display and driving it from an Arduino it can display any alpha numeric or other symbol I code.  I didn't go down the custom pcb route in the end as the cost was prohibative.  Now I just need to decide if I'm naming the lines: Fast, Slow; Main, Relief or Local, Through.

 

Dave.

 

But have you achieved anything smaller than Absolute Aspects have managed?

 

[DoubleHeader]

Yes, not to accurate scale but the matrix is 6 x 9mm, about 7 x 10mm once built with an enclosure hood.  The 12 wires pass easily down a 1/8" brass post with a piece of silicon sleeve over them all.  (Sorry to mix metric and imperial units but I was brought up in microns and barleycorns).  In principle I have 255 available aspects, I have coded 40 characters even though I only need seven of them.  The aspect is selected either from the I2C bus, a BCD switch or normally from the various points position inputs.

Their 14 segment display is around 10 x 18mm.  They provide 3 aspects as standard with extras available as a special.

 

Dave.