Relative noob needing help with new layout

[jimmythedog]

Hi all, 
Hoping someone out there can help to get me started...

After two failed attempts at building a layout, I'm hoping third time lucky 

 

I'm wanting to build an OO layout to fit in an area 8' 10" x 5' 9" (not a lot I know, but it is what it is - and my eyes just aren't up to N )

Three sides are up against walls, so no access from outside the layout there, but one of the longer side does have easy access, and I'm guessing a removable section on that side (don't think I'll be able to crawl under for much longer!)

 

Must haves?

• Some sort of continuous loop in there (prev two attempts were end-to-end, and I realise now that sometimes I would like to see trains running around)

Nice to haves?

• Based around the steam->diesel era (would that be early 60s?), as I already have a class37 (not that era, but i can live with that) and I am thinking of getting a few steam locos
• Some sort of goods/shunting area(s), as there's only so long you can watch a train go by!

Unknowns?

• Probably rural rather than urban?
• Do I need a fiddle yard? Really not sure tbh (this is where inexperience is showing)

 

Thanks for taking the time to read this, and really hoping I'm going to strike lucky

 

[Nearholmer]

Have a read of this article, which I would suggest might contain the answer to your needs (this should work as a link to the full article, but doesn’t seem to want to - it was in February 2018 ‘Railway Modeller’).

 

 

The layout shown is 6ft x 4ft, but by inflating it to 8ft x 6ft, there would be room for an operating well as you’ve shown.

 

One thing I would steer clear of on a layout like this is big locos, and in this context a Class 37 would look big. Personally, I would stick with “shunters”, things like Classes 03, 04, 05, and 08, all of which were used as branch goods locos in odd places, with single-car and two-car railcars for the passenger services.

 

Hope that gives food for thought.

 

 

 

 

Edited February 19, 2022 by Nearholmer

[AndyB]

Hi Jimmy.

I guess the obvious question is why did the first two layout attempts fail? Was there something you didn't like about them?

 

I'd recommend a fiddle yard. Take a look at the Dene-type fiddle yard as this would integrate nicely into a continuous circuit.

 

I'd also suggest you need a reason for the railway to exist. Was there a local industry which needed materials brought in and finished goods taken out? Where did the workforce live? Was there a town nearby that needed a station?

 

In relation to your era this is called the transition era, where new forms of diesel traction were starting to appear on the scene and steam locos starting to be withdrawn, or work on less prestigious duties. Roughly 1955 to 1968. A very interesting period because of the mix of steam and diesel. 

 

In relation to the baseboards, depending on the plan, you may want to thin one down and thicken another, or make the operating well wider than 2'. 

 

A rural scene will low you to make progress quicker than an urban one.

 

Could I recommend that you think about having scenery below the track bed as well as above. This will help realism. You can do this using either cut out sections or L-beam construction. 

 

Best. Andy

 

[phil_sutters]

7 minutes ago, Nearholmer said:

Have a read of this article, which I would suggest might contain the answer to your needs (this should work as a link to the full article, but doesn’t seem to want to - it was in February 2018 ‘Railway Modeller’).

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Would that depend on whether you have the RM subscription right to access the archive? Having said that it doesn't open for me and I have that right.

[Nearholmer]

It’s a copy of the article archived (not by me) outside of the RM Archive, but it still won’t link!

 

I think Andy is suggesting the very same approach, so we really do need to show the OP a Deane fiddle-yard track plan.

 

Right, here we are, courtesy of a dodgy Russian website that surely I shouldn’t encourage. See a Plan 9 herein:

 

 

Edited February 19, 2022 by AY Mod
Links removed - unsafe

[AndyB]

@Nearholmer yep, that's what I had in mind. 

And yes I'd agree, a 37 would look large in this kind of setting. Better to go for small locos,  or perhaps a rail bus for passenger traffic. 

 

[jimmythedog]

Oh wow!
I pop out grocery shopping, come back, and there's already a whole load of help - thanks a bunch guys, really didn't expect so much, so quick

Right, let's reply to the postings so far - I guess I'll start with AndyB's question...

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why did the first two layout attempts fail? Was there something you didn't like about them?

First of all, was my first attempts and, being human, I thought I knew best on the first one and decided that it really couldn't be that difficult to design a layout, surely?
So, an end-to-end plan was "knocked up", track laid & ballasted, everything wired up (even had servo motors switching electrofrog points, controlled by own built MERG boards), some hilly scenery built up, and buildings made up from scalescenes kits - was really pleased with myself for a short while...
At this point I guess I should emphasise my noobiness - right, and now that's out of the way...
I never realised that UK railways were like the roads i.e. trains mainly travel on the left!
This meant that I had a platform in the terminus that could never be used - a minor matter, NOT
So, up that came

 

For the second one, I decided to use one end of the wall for a Minories layout, and that went really well
Even had some automation with JMRI, but there was a nagging in my head...

I wanted a continuous run, and I found the "flatness" of the baseboards a bit limited - I even got incredibly frustrated with timber cross members always seeming to be under a point - grrrr

So that was the second one gone

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Quote

I'd also suggest you need a reason for the railway to exist. Was there a local industry which needed materials brought in and finished goods taken out? Where did the workforce live? Was there a town nearby that needed a station?

This is something I've really struggled with all the way thru this journey - I don't know
TBH, I think the class37 was probably not helping - I think I was trying to design a layout around a loco, and I ended up in the "wrong" era for the layout size (if that makes sense), and if I'd stuck to steam locos, I'd have been drawn towards older times, where there appeared to more of a need for, and more varied, rail freight - and probably more layout examples
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Quote

In relation to the baseboards, depending on the plan, you may want to thin one down and thicken another,

I've already built L-girder baseboards (due to my frustration with a flat baseboard), but they're loosely connected, and I am not averse to modifying them - I want to get it right this time
I'm already impressed with what advantages I've already seen with L-girders
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Quote

A rural scene will low you to make progress quicker than an urban one.

I'm really impressed by some of those out there - I've been totally engrossed the Little Muddle thread - that guy is a modelling genius
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Quote

Could I recommend that you think about having scenery below the track bed as well as above. This will help realism. You can do this using either cut out sections or L-beam construction. 

That was one of the reasons I went down the L-girder route - I have high hopes for that

I think that's enough in this post, and I'll author another one after a cuppa, in relation to the other helpful comments - once again, a big, big thank you guys

Edited February 19, 2022 by jimmythedog

[jimmythedog]

OK, cuppa by my side, part two...
 

Quote

Take a look at the Dene-type fiddle yard

Would this be "Maurice Deane"?
And, if so, would the Ffarquhar layout be an example of it?
(Again, this my noobiness coming out)
 

Quote

See a Plan 9 herein

Is this ("Coldean"?) also an example? - Oo just spotted something - is there a clue in the name Coldean?

What "makes" a deane type fiddle yard?
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When searching for the deane layout, I came across this, and I think that would kinda nice to do:

With my limited knowledge, would I be right in saying that it's kinda like the Coldean layout?
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Edited February 19, 2022 by jimmythedog
Incorrect link to another thread

[jimmythedog]

Would I be right in thinking that I'd be struggling to reach the top LH corner of Coldean with my layout, as my only access is from the operating well?

[Harlequin]

Hi "Jimmythedog",

 

This is really a Layout Design topic and in the Layout & Track Design subforum you will find lots of people struggling with very similar problems!

 

The space available is quite tight but what you are asking for is eminently do-able. A single track roundy with a small passing loop station and a goods yard should fit but including a fiddle yard as well might be tricky.

 

Edited February 19, 2022 by Harlequin

[AndyB]

So, first thing is that there's plenty of positives in what you've achieved do far.  And I've yet to meet anyone who got it all right first time. 

 

Yes, that's correct it is named after Maurice Dean. The differentiation on his style of FY is that it incorporates both a continuous run and sidings and access at one end us often just before the station throat. 

 

I don't believe the idea was to directly copy Colden but to use it as an example to tinker with. You have a bit more space so the sration may not need to curve round and fatten out as on Coldean. That would probably let you access the top left-hand corner.

 

Yep, best thing to do is to forget about the Class 37 abd design the layout you want. You can always sell it or swap it. Don't be a hostage.

 

As Harlequin says you may be better if asking g a Mod to move your topic to the Layout Pmanning area? 

[Nearholmer]

The reason I initially pointed to ‘Handross’, rather than ‘Coldean’, or even Deane’s original, ‘Portreath’ I think, is that the guy who built Handcross resisted the temptation to ram it too full, he kept it clean and simple, thereby making it look far bigger than it really is.

[jimmythedog]

Once again, guys, thanks for all your help - you've given a great start
Apologies for posting to the wrong topic - oops
Could you please point me how to get in touch with a Mod?

[AndyB]

Hi @jimmythedog you simply use the @ symbol followed by the person's name, e.g. @Mod1 and ask them to kindly move your topic to the Layout Layourt and Track Design area. 

Andy

[RobinofLoxley]

I dont know how it happens, but despite the section title, this thread belongs in the Layout design section, but Ive no idea how it gets there

 

One point, with a baseboard of this size, the idea that the hole in the middle is an operating well is a bit of a misnomer. Its really an access for construction purposes and for rerailing stuff. Jimmy, if you can imagine your position inside that hole, you wont be able to turn and your perspective will be terrible - layouts are best viewed from a much lower angle. So you will spend most of your operating hours outside, unless the final design finished up entirely different from your drawing.

 

In which case your point of view will be different and that will affect the layout planning.

[jimmythedog]

@Mod1 Sorry, I appear to have posted to the wrong topic, could you please move this thread to the 'Layout and Track Design' area?
Many thanks and, again, apologies

[Nearholmer]

49 minutes ago, RobinofLoxley said:

One point, with a baseboard of this size, the idea that the hole in the middle is an operating well is a bit of a misnomer. Its really an access for construction purposes and for rerailing stuff. Jimmy

I’m not sure it’s as restrictive as all that - it’s big enough that if you sit on a swivel chair, the layout becomes a “cockpit”, if thoughtfully designed.

 

The logical thing to do is keep the baseboard on the access side narrow, maybe a foot at its minimum, and the edges of the well curved, rather than make things all straight edges and 2ft wide boards.

 

 

[CameronL]

I don't think the 37 would be totally out of place on a transition era layout. if we're talking 1950s to 1960s, surely the 37s first put in an appearance in 1960, so a green one would be right at home. As for it dwarfing the rest of the layout, how about the following to add a bit of operational interest. 

 

 

In this way you could have a small rural station with appropriate rolling stock, but a mineral line leading off back to the same fiddle yard. Operationally you could then have decent-sized mineral trains pulled by your 37 going clockwise from the fiddle yard on the mineral branch, through the station and off down the main line full, and anticlockwise on the mainline, through the station and off up the mineral branch to the fiddle yard empty. This gives you some operational interest and a reason to run that 37.

 

(It's not my era but I think the sight of a 37 with a train of mineral wagons behind it is good for the eyes. My second ever loco in the 1970s was a BR blue 37).

 

Sorry I haven't had time to produce a more detailed track plan but I'm just off for lunch with SWMBO. Good luck with the build. Looking forward to seeing how it progresses.

 

Best wishes

 

Cam

[jimmythedog]

Thanks Cam - something like this?

[Harlequin]

Remember to leave room for scenery outside the tracks.

Avoid needless wiggles if you can.

The main line and branch line would look better if they were separated a bit.

 

Is the station at the top or the bottom???

 

Edit: You need to be able to get your hands into a fiddle yard and that's not going to be easy if it's on the far side of the baseboards behind a backscene. (Deane pattern FYs rely on access outside the layout.)

 

Edited February 19, 2022 by Harlequin

[Flying Pig]

3 hours ago, Nearholmer said:

The reason I initially pointed to ‘Handross’, rather than ‘Coldean’, or even Deane’s original, ‘Portreath’ I think, is that the guy who built Handcross resisted the temptation to ram it too full, he kept it clean and simple, thereby making it look far bigger than it really is.

 

If you google "Handcross model railway" the search result thumbnails give a good idea of the layout.  The scenic modelling is exceptional.

 

 

[Nearholmer]

This link does work.

 

At the foot of the page is a link to a pdf of the entire article from RM, including dimensioned plan, and all legit.

 

https://www.slaughamarchives.org/picture/number2164.asp
 

 

Edited February 19, 2022 by Nearholmer

[jimmythedog]

After Phil's comments, time for a rethink
Thanks for those comments - really helps

[Nearholmer]

1 hour ago, Harlequin said:

Deane pattern FYs rely on access outside the layout.)

Not always so.

 

They are often used that way, but provided the reach distance can be kept within reason (which is where it all goes wrong in 0,  they are fine for ‘inside access’ too.

 

With a 00 layout that is normally operated from a chair, so maybe 750-800mm above the floor, the teach for ‘fiddling’ should be fine when standing. I’m in the kitchen right now, surrounded by 2ft wide worktops, and can easily reach into the ‘far’ corners when standing.

 

 

[Harlequin]

12 minutes ago, Nearholmer said:

Not always so.

 

They are often used that way, but provided the reach distance can be kept within reason (which is where it all goes wrong in 0,  they are fine for ‘inside access’ too.

 

With a 00 layout that is normally operated from a chair, so maybe 750-800mm above the floor, the teach for ‘fiddling’ should be fine when standing. I’m in the kitchen right now, surrounded by 2ft wide worktops, and can easily reach into the ‘far’ corners when standing.

 

 

But what about the backscene?

 

Try standing some cereal boxes on their sides to represent the backscene, leaving a gap to the wall wide enough for a few tracks. Could you reach over and comfortably uncouple a loco from a coach (say) behind the backscene?