Yarmouth Central Posted February 19, 2022 Share Posted February 19, 2022 Hi, I have successfully installed 7 Peco brand new electrofrog points on my new layout but the 8th is giving a problem. To solve this I have swapped out both the point & the brand new point motor (Seep PM1) with brand new products but the problem persists. This LH point allows locos to run over the frog when it is set to LH (branch) but shorts out when set straight ahead. If I swap over the feeds to the switch on the Seep, I get no problem when the point is set to Straight, but a short when set to branch. After reading tips from other on this site I know Seeps are not the best motors, but this layout requires 24 points/slips etc. & I don't have the funds for 24 Cobalts or Tortoise motors. As I am using block detection & iTrain software I have 6 IRJs on every point. Power is supplied to each point individually & the wires are the correct way round. There is no apparent debris or metal items as I have vacuumed carefully. Any ideas anyone? I can't move on to the next board until this one is running perfectly - so just stuck & appealing for help please. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham108 Posted February 19, 2022 Share Posted February 19, 2022 Well if you've got the same problem with 2 points / motors then it's unlikely to be anything other than the wiring but without diagrams / photos it's difficult to say. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yarmouth Central Posted February 19, 2022 Author Share Posted February 19, 2022 Hi Graham 108, Thanks for replying. I'm absolutely sure it's not the wiring. In fact I briefly got this turnout working properly just a few minutes ago by following RMweb advice to slightly loosen the screws holding the PM1. I loosened the screws & turned the board flat & the point & frog worked fine in both directions! BUT the fault has happened again as soon as I put the baseboard back in its correct position with the slightly loosened motor. So - problem seems to be the second new motor (again?) or perhaps my soldering! Could it be a faulty batch of motors? I will fit yet another motor tomorrow & see what happens then. Thanks again Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smokebox Posted February 19, 2022 Share Posted February 19, 2022 Sounds like the motor isn't quite centred properly on the point. PS You shouldn't need 6 irjs, just 2 on the frog rails. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Free At Last Posted February 19, 2022 Share Posted February 19, 2022 Have you got the motor completely centralised under the point. Seeps can be tricky to set up. I elongated the fixing holes before fitting to give a bit of adjustment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold ITG Posted February 19, 2022 RMweb Gold Share Posted February 19, 2022 39 minutes ago, smokebox said: Sounds like the motor isn't quite centred properly on the point. PS You shouldn't need 6 irjs, just 2 on the frog rails. I’m only beginning with iTrain but my understanding is that if you wish to exclude the points from the (isolated) blocks, (as opposed to being within an adjacent block), you would need 6 IRJs. Not that that issue resolves the OPs problem! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smokebox Posted February 19, 2022 Share Posted February 19, 2022 21 minutes ago, ITG said: I’m only beginning with iTrain but my understanding is that if you wish to exclude the points from the (isolated) blocks, (as opposed to being within an adjacent block), you would need 6 IRJs. Not that that issue resolves the OPs problem! Fair enough. I didn't know that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derekl Posted February 19, 2022 Share Posted February 19, 2022 As others have said it is the positioning of the point motor under the point. It is slightly off so that the inbuilt switch in the motor is not properly moving from one contact to the other. You should be able to see that on inspection. Replacing the motor doesn't help, because you simply put it in the same position and so replicate the problem. The loosened motor works with the board in the "wrong" position (presumably held vertically) because the motor can move sufficiently to enable the switch to work properly. It is a bit fiddly to adjust the motor but that is the way out - I have had a similar problem in the past. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yarmouth Central Posted February 20, 2022 Author Share Posted February 20, 2022 Thank you all. Seems like you all suggest adjusting the motor position. So I am going to unscrew the motor & then test the point polarity by switching the motor through my DR5000 'and manually switching the point to match the direction to test the operation of the motor frog switch. If it works OK then I will adjust the positioning of the motor. Thanks for everyone's advice & happy modelling to all! Regards, Yarmouth Central (My mythical terminus built to replace Yarmouth SouthTown & Yarmouth Vauxhall with a single station after 1939-45 bomb damage in Great Yarmouth made space available to implement a real, but abandoned, proposal many years before BR times) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete the Elaner Posted February 20, 2022 Share Posted February 20, 2022 Microswithes are cheap & reliable (about 50p each from the right supplier). Regarding IRJs; it is better to use too many then too few. Rail sections can easily be connected under the board. This is a lot easier than splitting a section into 2 above the board. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yarmouth Central Posted February 21, 2022 Author Share Posted February 21, 2022 Update - So I unscrewed the point motor from the baseboard & operated it from my DR5000, and the point itself manually, BUT I still have the original problem. A short circuit when my class 03 (which I am using for testing) crosses the frog? This problem point is the second from the left in a ladder of 4 points. From Left to Right - Small Y, Small LH, Small RH, Small LH. The small Y point has been extended with 2 short straights to get the track geometry right. The Y point does not have a live frog as Peco do not provide a wire to attach a frog wire to. The other points are live frog. Could that Y point be the problem? (although the 03 is clear of this point when it reaches the problem frog) All points are separated on both rails with 6 IRJs. All points have their own power supply & are wired the correct way round (Black to the back) The problem point leads to a "kickback" siding, wired black to the back - Could that be the problem? I'm really baffled here guys! Thanks for reading - any assistance very welcome. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold ITG Posted February 21, 2022 RMweb Gold Share Posted February 21, 2022 Being non-live frog, if that Y point is acting in a self-isolating manner, and dependant on where your track feeds are (particularly as points use 6 IRJs), is it not possible that power is not getting to where you think it is? I note you say ‘short circuit’ - is that actually what you mean, or is it power failure? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yarmouth Central Posted February 21, 2022 Author Share Posted February 21, 2022 Hi ITG, Thanks for replying. Each of the points is powered individually and have 6IRJs as required by iTrain software. This works OK on the other 7 motor (PM1) driven points. There is power to the problem point & the frog works when set to branch (left) When I set it straight, there is a short. If I swap over the leads powering the PM1 switch it works in the opposite direction but I still get a short in the other direction. This tends to confirm the Y point is not a problem. I'm just wondering - The problem point & the Y point are "facing" the other two points on the RHS. So I have - manual & working Y point facing Right, Problem point facing right, working point facing left, and working point facing left, all in a line. Could the fact I have facing points be a problem? Thank you for your advice Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Harlequin Posted February 21, 2022 RMweb Gold Share Posted February 21, 2022 Photographs would be useful. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yarmouth Central Posted February 21, 2022 Author Share Posted February 21, 2022 If anyone can help me with my problem, I attach a track plan. Thanks in advance, Yarmouth Central problem.pdf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derekl Posted February 21, 2022 Share Posted February 21, 2022 Could you swap the two left hand points and see what happens (if you haven't tried that already). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold ITG Posted February 21, 2022 RMweb Gold Share Posted February 21, 2022 Having points facing each other alone will not cause a short. It must be a wiring problem, as you say that swapping over the feeds also swaps the location of the problem. If all else fails, it’s a case of disconnecting every track and frog feed, and reconnecting systematically from the left, until you get the short. Then you’ll know it’s the last connection you restored. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grovenor Posted February 21, 2022 Share Posted February 21, 2022 With 6 IRJs around the point then that point is independent of any others, hence it can only be the wiring on that point, the 3 wires to the switch must be wrong. Check them carefully, especially that it is the centre contact of the switch that goes to the frog. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium kevinlms Posted February 22, 2022 RMweb Premium Share Posted February 22, 2022 12 hours ago, Yarmouth Central said: Hi ITG, Thanks for replying. Each of the points is powered individually and have 6IRJs as required by iTrain software. This works OK on the other 7 motor (PM1) driven points. There is power to the problem point & the frog works when set to branch (left) When I set it straight, there is a short. If I swap over the leads powering the PM1 switch it works in the opposite direction but I still get a short in the other direction. This tends to confirm the Y point is not a problem. I'm just wondering - The problem point & the Y point are "facing" the other two points on the RHS. So I have - manual & working Y point facing Right, Problem point facing right, working point facing left, and working point facing left, all in a line. Could the fact I have facing points be a problem? Thank you for your advice If you have all rails on all points having insulated rail joiners all round, then whether or not they are facing each other is irrelevant. Something is wrong with your PM1 wiring or the switch itself. Remember these point motors MUST be 100% correctly aligned. Anything else will cause the exact fault you have. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yarmouth Central Posted February 22, 2022 Author Share Posted February 22, 2022 Hi to all again, All my PM1s are wired so that terminal F goes to the frog. Terminal D is +ve supply & terminal E is -ve return. My wires are colour coded the same as the other 7 points that work with no problem. A&B = Brown, C= Blue, D = Yellow, E = White, F = Green. All wires go to terminal blocks so each point is wired the same way. Point feeds in red & black also go to terminal blocks. I am going to change the PM1 for yet another brand new one (the 3rd) so I am absolutely sure the switch is wired properly & no solder has got where it isn't wanted! I'm also going to replace the SLE 91 point with new again. I can use the old ones elsewhere later in the build. I have repositioned the PM1 slightly after previous advice & enlarged the hole to 12mm to give extra clearance, but will adjust again if necessary when I fit the new point & motor when they arrive. I'm hoping I can report success in my next reply! In the mean time I am starting on my next board, the station throat, to give me some forward momentum. Thanks for your help guys, it is much appreciated, Yarmouth Central Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Free At Last Posted February 22, 2022 Share Posted February 22, 2022 55 minutes ago, Yarmouth Central said: All my PM1s are wired so that terminal F goes to the frog. Terminal D is +ve supply & terminal E is -ve return. My wires are colour coded the same as the other 7 points that work with no problem. A&B = Brown, C= Blue, D = Yellow, E = White, F = Green. All wires go to terminal blocks so each point is wired the same way. Point feeds in red & black also go to terminal blocks. Are the point motors all fitted in the same orientation? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yarmouth Central Posted February 26, 2022 Author Share Posted February 26, 2022 Hi, free at last. Yes, the motors are all facing the same way & are oriented (is that a word?) at 90 degrees to the track. I'm still waiting for replacement SL-E91 & point motor before I can re-build. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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