Modelling Early 90's Intercity 86/87 and LSL's preserved rigs

[wappinghigh]

Seeing LSL's preserved Class 86 and 87 and loco pulled MK3 coaches and MK3 DVT in Intercity Swallow has sparked my re-interest in modelling this era.

 

But what models to buy?

 

Heljan has released a retooled 86 but it is in IC Executive, so I assume this is too early? Would an 86 class in this livery have made it into the early 90's without a repaint?

Would you have ever seen a Class 86 in Intercity Executive combo'd with a MK3 DVT in Swallow pulling Mk3 coaches?

Bachman have some great Mk2F's in IC Swallow but I am not sure these were ever pulled by either the class 86 or 87 into the early 90's?

The new Hornby Class 87 can be purchased in IC Swallow (King Arthur) but what coaches?

The only proto-typical MK3 coaches that would have run with an 87 loco would be Mk3 buffered coaches right? ... not HST MK3's... but appropriate models are limited.

The Oxford Rail Mk3 buffered coaches have a very poor colour rendition of Intercity Swallow - really they look terrible.

 

So my question is what is the best way to model an early 90's IC Swallow AC Electric loco rig with the current available models from all the British model makers? 

 

Thanks! 

 

 

Edited March 5, 2022 by wappinghigh

[rodent279]

1 hour ago, wappinghigh said:

Seeing LSL's preserved Class 86 and 87 and loco pulled MK3 coaches and MK3 DVT in Intercity Swallow has sparked my re-interest in modelling this era.

 

But what models to buy?

 

Heljan has released a retooled 86 but it is in IC Executive, so I assume this is too early? Would an 86 class in this livery have made it into the early 90's without a repaint?

Would you have ever seen a Class 86 in Intercity Executive combo'd with a MK3 DVT in Swallow pulling Mk3 coaches?

Bachman have some great Mk2F's in IC Swallow but I am not sure these were ever pulled by either the class 86 or 87 into the early 90's?

The new Hornby Class 87 can be purchased in IC Swallow (King Arthur) but what coaches?

The only proto-typical MK3 coaches that would have run with an 87 loco would be Mk3 buffered coaches right? ... not HST MK3's... but appropriate models are limited.

The Oxford Rail Mk3 buffered coaches have a very poor colour rendition of Intercity Swallow - really they look terrible.

 

So my question is what is the best way to model an early 90's IC Swallow AC Electric loco rig with the current available models from all the British model makers? 

 

Thanks! 

 

 

Correct, class 86/7 would only have hauled buffer fitted Mk3's. The electrical systems on HST Mk3's were also incompatible with the Eth provided by class 86/7-HST Mk3's use a 3 phase AC system, hauled stock uses single phase AC.

[EddieK]

From memory, the IC Swallow livery first appeared in late Summer 1987, while the Mark 3b DVTs first appeared in 1988. When I started working at Wembley Carriage Depot in August 1989, the Mark 3 sets based there still had BG vans but no DVTs, but around 1990 the BGs were replaced by DVTs, and at first the DVTs were not used in push-pull mode, so the loco would haul the train in both directions. Again from memory, the Oxley based sets on EBW (Euston Birmingham Wolverhampton) services commenced push-pull operation earlier than our Wembley sets, so possibly at some point during 1990 (?). The EBW sets were formed of Mark 2f stock, but with a Mark 3 buffet car. 

I believe it likely that "Executive" liveried 86 and 87 could have worked with "Swallow" liveried coaches.

[wappinghigh]

6 hours ago, EddieK said:

From memory, the IC Swallow livery first appeared in late Summer 1987, while the Mark 3b DVTs first appeared in 1988. When I started working at Wembley Carriage Depot in August 1989, the Mark 3 sets based there still had BG vans but no DVTs, but around 1990 the BGs were replaced by DVTs, and at first the DVTs were not used in push-pull mode, so the loco would haul the train in both directions. Again from memory, the Oxley based sets on EBW (Euston Birmingham Wolverhampton) services commenced push-pull operation earlier than our Wembley sets, so possibly at some point during 1990 (?). The EBW sets were formed of Mark 2f stock, but with a Mark 3 buffet car. 

I believe it likely that "Executive" liveried 86 and 87 could have worked with "Swallow" liveried coaches.

Thanks so much. So by say early 90's...say 92-93 - it's a fair guess all 86 and 87's push pulls (apart from that unique London Norwich service that stole the Refurbed DBSO's from Scot rail) would have been running DVT Mk3 trailers? And most definitely Mk3B's? And the LSL have done such a great job putting together a Class 86 and 87 in that combo with Mk3B's and IC Swallow on both locos and the coaches.. The real thing looks fantastic. Hornby now has a Mk3 DVT. Yes there is the light bleed problem - but that can be cheaply fixed with an inside paint job. The problem is the lack of Mk3B coaches on the modelling scene. Like I said there is the Oxford rail - but they just don't cut it with terribly inaccurate colour reproduction. The very old Hornby's don't cut it either... tooling is way to old for a coupling refit etc...So what else?! Any suggestions? I guess I could model just EBW sets with Mk 2f? But how long did they run with Mk2f's once the DVTS arrived? and the Locomotive Services rigs look so awesome!

Edited March 6, 2022 by wappinghigh

[keefer]

Weren't the Mk3b coaches limited to FO Pullmans, BFO and DVT?

Everything else, i.e. TSO, FO and RFM, was Mk3a (except for any vehicles converted from HST trailers though I'm not sure if they looked any different once converted)

[wappinghigh]

^I have no idea. In any case I am getting my Mk3 a and bs mixed up.. either way there is no decent model of either of these coaches in IC livery in my opinion... so where to go from here? ...(that is if you want to model trains pulled by Early 90's Class 86 or 87's in IC livery? ) 

Edited March 6, 2022 by wappinghigh

[rodent279]

1 hour ago, keefer said:

Weren't the Mk3b coaches limited to FO Pullmans, BFO and DVT?

Everything else, i.e. TSO, FO and RFM, was Mk3a (except for any vehicles converted from HST trailers though I'm not sure if they looked any different once converted)

There's some difference in the rooftops at the ends, something to do with a cover for something. I think in HST's there's a central box, on loco-hauled coaches there's two domes one on each side at the ends. In all honesty, only rivet counters will notice.

[Padishar Creel]

Hallo,

Type separate searches of Euston, Rugby, Norton Bridge, Stoke-on-Trent adding 1990s into YouTube, there are some great clips to watch. Whilst Executive 87s can be seen hauling or pushing MK3+DVT sets, all the 86s appear to be swallow, or without logo

There is the odd MK2f Set with MK3 RFM and no DVT but with a BG, and my favourites a MK3/MK2 + DVT set with a BG between the DVT and the FO and even a set with MK1 TSOs in I/C livery

 

hope this helps

es grüßt

pc 

[black and decker boy]

86s definitely still in old exec livery in 1990 alongside intercity mainline and full intercity swallow

 

 

[wappinghigh]

Did Class 87's ever pull Mk2F's or did they pretty much always operate Mk3 coaches? thanks 

[Padishar Creel]

1 hour ago, wappinghigh said:

Did Class 87's ever pull Mk2F's or did they pretty much always operate Mk3 coaches? thanks 

Does this count? MK3 RFM+ DVT, though the remainder are 2Fs

 

https://flic.kr/p/KqSGfA

[Padishar Creel]

20 hours ago, black and decker boy said:

86s definitely still in old exec livery in 1990 alongside intercity mainline and full intercity swallow

 

 

 Excellent clip. What was the Motorail working? Would the remainder of the rake have been hauled further?

 

Edit: sorry, I had a brain-f@яt. My finger must have pushed the timer further to the next train filmed

Edited March 7, 2022 by Padishar Creel
Explained in text

[wappinghigh]

27 minutes ago, Padishar Creel said:

Does this count? MK3 RFM+ DVT, though the remainder are 2Fs

 

https://flic.kr/p/KqSGfA

Sure. Ok cool.. so May 91...

Did class 87's pull these sort of carriages into the mid 90's? 

When did they swap to totally Mk3's? 

Edited March 7, 2022 by wappinghigh

[wappinghigh]

Ok so looked thru many rigs on flic.kr.. looks like IC Swallow started to appear as repaints on the Class 87's in 1993?

MK3 DVTS started to appear around same time.? bit before?... (in same livery)

Some Class 87's continued to pull Mk2f's.. but as 93-94 rolled on BR wanted to move to better all MK3 carriage rigs...

That about it?   

Edited March 7, 2022 by wappinghigh

[rodent279]

2 hours ago, wappinghigh said:

Did Class 87's ever pull Mk2F's or did they pretty much always operate Mk3 coaches? thanks 

Earlier on in the 80's, before the build of mk3b's, 87's regularly hauled mk2f rakes. 87's could and did happily haul rakes of all flavours of mk2's, except the very early vacuum brake only mk2's. Class 87 diagrams in the early 80's saw them work Freightliners, Anglo-Scottish trains and EBW (Euston-Birmingham-Wolverhampton) trains, all on the same diagram, within a 24hr period. Sectorisation from the mid 80's on saw them start to stick more rigidly to passenger work, and in the early 90's yes they probably would have worked with mk3 rakes more often. They would still be seen on cross country mk2 rakes though.

[EddieK]

As I recall, the Euston-Birmingham-Wolverhampton services ran with Mark 2f stock until Pendolinos displaced them. On West Coast Main Line, there was a mix of mark 2f and mark 3 sets on trains out of Euston, usually mark 2f to Birmingham and mark 3 to Liverpool, Manchester and Glasgow. Once DVTs had been introduced, all Inter City trains on the Euston services had them, apart from one or two trains (Clansman to Inverness?). The mark 2 trains had mark 3 buffet cars - see image from May 1991 above.. 

Additionally, on the northern part of WCML, there were Cross Country trains formed of Mark 2 e/f stock that had mark 2 buffet cars and mark 2 BSO instead of DVT.

Note that from 1996 onwards, IC Swallow livery was replaced by Virgin red colours.

[EddieK]

8 hours ago, wappinghigh said:

Sure. Ok cool.. so May 91...

Did class 87's pull these sort of carriages into the mid 90's? 

When did they swap to totally Mk3's? 

They didn't.swap to totally Mark 3s - see above.

Edited March 7, 2022 by EddieK
Additional wording to remove ambiguity

[rodent279]

38 minutes ago, EddieK said:

As I recall, the Euston-Birmingham-Wolverhampton services ran with Mark 2f stock until Pendolinos displaced them.

Yes, I think you're right, and a mk2 in good nick bore favourable comparison to a Pendo- despite being 30 years older, the ride was better, and they were quieter (if the vestibule doors worked!).