Southern region ferry van trains: what sort of brake vans did they have (if any)?

[jonhall]

1 minute ago, jwealleans said:

Can't find it now but Jon Hall gave me a copy of a BR (I think) publication from the 1960s which followed the path of a washing machine from Italy to a shop somewhere in London via the Train Ferry.

doesn't ring bells with me, but seems the sort of thing I might have seen... 

[jonhall]

On 12/06/2022 at 23:04, hmrspaul said:

 

 

Paul

 

S.F.V. 6316 582115 and 582116 renumbered 21 87 078 0 010 and 019

 

 

 

 

Edited June 17, 2022 by jonhall

[hmrspaul]

4 hours ago, teeinox said:

Folks,

 

Thank you for your replies on what I thought was a rather niche topic!  Anyway, the photo of the Dubonnet wagon was very striking, so, cheekily, I did some photoshopping to see whether I could remove the colour cast.  So here it is for your delectation!

 

 

 

 

On the right, you can now just see the platform of a BR brake van.  But where was the photo taken?

 

teeinox

As mentioned earlier at St. Albans which had a Rose's cordial factory, part of the Cadbury/Schweppes empire. 

 

Paul

Edited June 17, 2022 by hmrspaul

[teeinox]

On 14/06/2022 at 16:09, SED Freightman said:

The following services from Dover appeared in the SR WTT, Section M (Freight), Mandatory Train Services commencing 01/05/1972, which I guess would have been similar to the service operated in the 1960's :-

 

6W41 0030 (EWD) Dover Marine to Hither Green Continental Depot - Air braked service worked by Cl.71. Convey Ferry wagons. Formation - Bricklayers Arms, Hither Green.

 

6E64 0110 (MSX) Dover Marine to Stratford LIFT - Air braked service worked by Cl.33. Convey Ferry wagons. Formation - Stratford LIFT, Temple Mills.

 

6E64 0110 (SO) Dover Marine to Temple Mils - Air braked service worked by Cl.33. Convey Ferry wagons for Stratford LIFT only.

 

6W42 0810 (SX) Dover Marine to Hither Green Continental Depot - Air braked service worked by Cl.71. Convey Ferry wagons.

 

6R41 1120 (SX) Dover Town to Hither Green Sdgs - Air braked service worked by Cl.71. Convey Ferry Wagons. Formation - Temple Mills, Willesden, Hither Green.

 

6K35 1154 (SX) Dover Marine to Faversham - Worked by Cl.71. Convey Ferry wagons and BSK.

 

6K35 1154 (SO) Dover Marine to Faversham - Air braked service worked by Cl.71. Convey Ferry wagons and BSK.

 

6G42 2043 (SX) Dover Marine to Hither Green Continental Depot - Air braked service worked by Cl.71. Convey Ferry wagons.

 

7R61 2130 (SX) - Dover Town to Hither Green Sdgs - Worked by Cl.73, called at Paddock wood. Formation - Paddock Wood, Temple Mills, Willesden, Norwood, Hither Green.

 

6R43 2220 (SUN) Dover Marine to Hither Green Continental Depot - Air braked service worked by Cl.71. Convey Ferry wagons.

 

There were corresponding return services. Of note is the importance of Faversham (East Kent Packers ?) for ferry traffic prior to the closure of Hither Green Continental Depot and opening of the Transfesa Terminal at Paddock Wood and A&RJ Wood's terminal at Sittingbourne.

 

The WTT extract you provided was most interesting, thank you.

 

One question I would like to ask is about how things were organised at Dover.  When a service was scheduled to or from Dover Marine, what did that mean?  Did it mean that the train solely consisted of wagons originating from or destined for the train ferry?  And did the wagons first go to Dover Town for remarshalling and locomotive change, and in the case of arriving wagons, be stacked in a “queue” in Dover Town awaiting their turn on the ferry?  I suppose what I am asking is how did it all work at Dover?

 

The other question is, how were the routes between Dover and Hither Green selected?  There were the choices of via Tonbridge, Maidstone East or Chatham.  Obviously, if there were a calling point en-route, like Faversham, that would mean a routing via Chatham.  But if there were no intermediate calling points, what happened then?  I assume the routing was laid down in the timetable and maybe depended on the type of train, but was there flexibility on the day for engineering work, congestion, or other reasons?

[SED Freightman]

16 hours ago, teeinox said:

 

One question I would like to ask is about how things were organised at Dover.  When a service was scheduled to or from Dover Marine, what did that mean?  Did it mean that the train solely consisted of wagons originating from or destined for the train ferry?  And did the wagons first go to Dover Town for remarshalling and locomotive change, and in the case of arriving wagons, be stacked in a “queue” in Dover Town awaiting their turn on the ferry?  I suppose what I am asking is how did it all work at Dover?

 

The other question is, how were the routes between Dover and Hither Green selected?  There were the choices of via Tonbridge, Maidstone East or Chatham.  Obviously, if there were a calling point en-route, like Faversham, that would mean a routing via Chatham.  But if there were no intermediate calling points, what happened then?  I assume the routing was laid down in the timetable and maybe depended on the type of train, but was there flexibility on the day for engineering work, congestion, or other reasons?

The question of trains starting / terminating at Dover Marine is interesting, I can only assume that as the distinction is clearly made in the WTT, the trains ran directly from / to the Ferry Sdgs accessed via Hawkesbury St Jn rather than the Town Yard.  During more recent years (1980's) virtually all trains ran to / from the Town Yard with wagons being tripped to / from the Ferry Sdgs (and later still the New Admiralty Pier Sdgs) as necessary.  Possibly Simon Lee can throw more light on this issue.

 

The routing of services, in the absence of need to call at intermediate yards, would be determined by pathway availability, train crew route knowledge and locomotive haulage capacity, I will add the routings to my earlier posting.  In the event of engineering work or other problems services could be diverted under control arrangements subject to the train crews route knowledge, etc.

[Oldddudders]

On 14/06/2022 at 17:09, SED Freightman said:

The following services from Dover appeared in the SR WTT, Section M (Freight), Mandatory Train Services commencing 01/05/1972, which I guess would have been similar to the service operated in the 1960's :-

The word Mandatory was new to Southern - perhaps the rest of BR - at about that time. It didn't stop the train being cancelled due to lack of traffic or whatever, but guaranteed it would be crewed, and obviously pathed. A new, slimmer, Freight WTT appeared at the same time, clearly marked Conditional, which contained paths for which 'bids' could be made in advance. I think this was done via a new post of Resource Allocator at Waterloo.

 

It has to be said that previous WTTs had contained pathways shown as MC - Manned Conditional, but the provision of resources was dealt with Divisionally rather than via HQ. Whether this new system proved much better I have no idea. 

[teeinox]

6 hours ago, SED Freightman said:

The question of trains starting / terminating at Dover Marine is interesting, I can only assume that as the distinction is clearly made in the WTT, the trains ran directly from / to the Ferry Sdgs accessed via Hawkesbury St Jn rather than the Town Yard.  During more recent years (1980's) virtually all trains ran to / from the Town Yard with wagons being tripped to / from the Ferry Sdgs (and later still the New Admiralty Pier Sdgs) as necessary.  Possibly Simon Lee can throw more light on this issue.

 

The routing of services, in the absence of need to call at intermediate yards, would be determined by pathway availability, train crew route knowledge and locomotive haulage capacity, I will add the routings to my earlier posting.  In the event of engineering work or other problems services could be diverted under control arrangements subject to the train crews route knowledge, etc.

Thank you for your reply.  Yes, it would be most interesting to know what the routings were.

 

Also, as part of the Kent Coast electrification, did Dover Town sidings get any overhead electrification for the "HA" locomotives?  I have never seen any in pictures, but even if originally provided, they may not have lasted long!

[bécasse]

Not only was the term "Mandatory" new to the Southern Region in the early 1970s but it also caused significant problems because whoever drew up the original specification forgot totally about the concept of BTPs (Boat Train Paths for the uninitiated) which, particularly in the Up direction, didn't conform with the newly laid-down mandatory train rules and therefore shouldn't have appeared in the Mandatory WT, which was clearly a nonsense.

 

Five decades later, I have forgotten the precise details of how it was overcome but the lesson was learnt because when, several years later, work started on the CATS (computer-aided timetable setting) project, I found myself shuttling to and from York for meetings with the project team to try to solve all the problems associated with ferry services generally and then train services that ran specifically to connect with them.

[Lyddrail]

1 hour ago, teeinox said:

Thank you for your reply.  Yes, it would be most interesting to know what the routings were.

 

Also, as part of the Kent Coast electrification, did Dover Town sidings get any overhead electrification for the "HA" locomotives?  I have never seen any in pictures, but even if originally provided, they may not have lasted long!

In photos I have seen, there was some 3rd rail sections in Dover Town Yard, and no OHL.

Cheers.

 

[Simon Lee]

On 20/06/2022 at 20:57, Lyddrail said:

In photos I have seen, there was some 3rd rail sections in Dover Town Yard, and no OHL.

Cheers.

 

The Town yard did have 750 volt ohl.

 

At the "London" end, roughly from the accomodation block up towards the weighbridge and the open end of the departure sidings 7 - 14. I could never find our the total extent, possibly in the NRM there are diagrams. 

 

Bear in mind that Dover loco occupied the pier end of the yard until the mid 60's which restricted the size of the yard. No 1 road was juiced and was, until around 1980, split with buffer stops, there are photos on the net of the London end of the road with 3 x 71 stabled. No 2 reception was juiced throughout (conrail)

 

There was also the remains of one of the gantry supports attached to a brick wall on the cliff side. It has appeared in various photos taken of the shunt locos and wagons that were taken from the beach.

 

I have it in mind that the reception road in Bulwark yard was also wired for Ohl but can not be 100% sure, have asked the question on the Dover staff FB group but as always, most who could have  remembered are no longer with us.

[Lyddrail]

Simon,

I have found phase one of the electrification included Dover for OHL. I have also found a photo of Bulwark yard having OHL. But the 1970s pics I have seen show 3rd rail on the London end of Town Yard. But it is likely there was OHL at some stage.

I have diagrams of Ashford & Deal OHL from my time managing the Electrification drawing office at Ashford, couldn't find any others.

Photo (not mine) of a 71 on 3rd rail.

Cheers.

[SED Freightman]

So it would appear that Cl.71 hauled services could be dealt with at Dover Town Yd, but I would be interested to find out how those timetabled to run to / from Dover Marine operated.  Were any of the Ferry Sidings electrified with a sufficient length of 3rd rail to accept a train arriving from the Dover Priory direction, or did the trains actually run into Dover Marine station and then get shunted to / from the ferry sidings ?

[teeinox]

On 24/06/2022 at 22:18, SED Freightman said:

So it would appear that Cl.71 hauled services could be dealt with at Dover Town Yd, but I would be interested to find out how those timetabled to run to / from Dover Marine operated.  Were any of the Ferry Sidings electrified with a sufficient length of 3rd rail to accept a train arriving from the Dover Priory direction, or did the trains actually run into Dover Marine station and then get shunted to / from the ferry sidings ?

This is supposition: was the treatment of trains different depending on whether customs clearance was required at Dover, or whether it would be done inland?

 

One of the things I understand about Hither Green Continental Freight Depot was that customs clearance was done there.  If a set of wagons destined for the Depot came off the ferry, there would therefore be no need to tarry at Dover.  And given they were perishable goods, the sooner they got to Hither Green, the better.

 

On the other hand, a post on this forum suggests that if customs clearance was required at Dover, this would be on an individual wagon basis, and much shunting between yards could be required to form a train ready to take the cleared wagons forward.

 

So, indeed, how did it all work?

[Simon Lee]

Lots of interesting information to hand now thanks to a couple of old hands from Dover.

 

First lets deal with Customs.

 

3 types of import traffic -

 

1) Under bond. Customs clearance at an inland "port" such as Hither Green, Paddock Wood, LIFT (Stratford), MIFT (Trafford Park) Hull Central (perishables only) and in later years  BIFT (Lawley St) and GIFT (Mossend)   All the inland ports dealt with both perishables and generals, with the exception of Hull. This all depended on the ageements that the importer had with HMCE. Documents to enable clearance were either attached in the wagon label cage, or in the case of Hither Green or Paddock Wood with a bulk train load, were given in care of the guard.  Traffic other than for HG and PWT, was generally penny lots, and passed via normal freight services and in later years Speedlink. 

 

2) Provincial Fruit known as "Provs" to the locals. These were customs cleared at Dover, usually within an hour of landing in the Ferry yard, perishable traffic tended to be repeatative in nature and with the same importer so HMCE were not generally interested in stopping these wagons, the only ones that sometimes took longer were peaches and grapes from Greece and sometimes apples from Franch, as these did not pass in volume and there were occasional errors on the documents. In later years HMCE would sometimes pull a Transfesa of onions for training new sniffer dogs, it was always interesting to watch the new recruits scrambling over 26 tons of netted onions to find the bag of contraband planted by their handlers. 

 

3) Generals everything not catered for above. Again regular flows were cleared within a few hours of arrival, new or occasional traffic took longer depending on the arrangements the import had. Remeber back in the day, import duty had to be paid on lots of traffic so payments would be secured before clearance was granted. The longest delay was over a year for a wagon of Yugoslavian bottled beer for a new importer in Northampton, unfortunatly the company never took delivery as they went out of business. The contents were disposed of locally 🤣

 

The general rule was that wagons provs and generals were not supposed to leave the old ferry yard until clearance was receieved in case any wagons were pulled for a turn out and tally. 

 

Following are the recollections of Dover driver John Linge who, is a keen railway man and a very interesting man to chat too. It should answer most of the questions raised on here, bare in mind what John descibes is what happened on the day, not what the "book" said should happen. 

 

"There were overhead wires in the Town Yard, and Bulwark Street Reception siding. It should be remembered that until the 1970s there was no access into the Town Yard from the Folkestone direction, all arriving trains from that direction running into Bulwark Street. The Reception line extended alongside the main line to the stops almost opposite the points of Hawkesbury Street Junction, although the overhead only extended to the old Viaduct, then for the last length a 3rd rail was provided. When trains of extreme length that could not be accomodated in Bulwark Street arrived hauled by Class 71 locos (such as the car train from Knowle and Dorridge, which originally changed loco's at Longhedge Junction and was hauled by a 71 to Dover and was made up of six Cartic 4s) the train was split into two parts on the main line, the front portion was pulled into the Reception Road, then either the Town Pilot came over and placed it straight into the Military or into the Town Yard, or the train loco pushed it back up the Cliff siding, which was between the main line and the cliff face, back towards Folkestone. After the front portion had been disposed of, the train engine ran back out onto the Down Main (passing the "dummy" at danger, as no Limit of Shunt was provided on the Down Main) and retrieved the rear portion and pulled it into the Reception road. This was very time consuming, especially at the beginning of the morning peak when this train arrived, and the addition of the facing crossover allowing trains from Folkestone direct access to Dover Town was a considerable improvement.

 

The very short No. 1 Road (which like No. 2 were not through roads then) at Dover Town was always fitted with a short length of conductor rail, to allow 71s to be stabled there, as they were not allowed to be shut down "under the wire". This was because the overhead was only designed for low powered moves in yards, and if a Booster Set was started when the overhead was in use there was a very real danger danger that the power needed would cause the wire to behave like a fuse, and they all came down.

 

There were, in the early seventies, four "Continental" ferry van trains to Hither Green each day, 0030, 0810, 1615 and 2035. All 71 worked and, apart from the 0030, generally started from No. 1 Ferry Siding, and were booked via Chatham. No. 1 Ferry was fitted with a conductor rail. The 0030 usually started from Dover Town, and was booked via Folkestone. There was also an 1155 to Faversham, and as well as ferryvans, conveyed the BSK that was used to provide the passenger accommodation on the down Faversham-Dover portion of the down Chatham Newspaper train. This train started from Dover Town, pushing out of the Yard towards Folkestone.

 

The use of 71s was restricting, and, when there was an overload of traffic from the continent I remember that very occasionally the Ferry Pilot would push a raft of Ferryvans into one of the Marine platform roads and the train would start from there.

 

Later, when the 71s were withdrawn and 73s and Diesels took over it was not unusual for (when room was at a premium in the Ferry and Town Yards) these trains to be started from the East and West roads on the pier.

 

It was also not unusual then (before Paddock Wood was in operation) for vans to be placed in the sidings on the up at St. Mary Cray and less often at Bromley South when Hither Green was overloaded with fruit, and returning empties were often berthed on the Down at Selling."

 

HTH 

Simon

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Fat Controller]

2 hours ago, Simon Lee said:

Lots of interesting information to hand now thanks to a couple of old hands from Dover.

 

First lets deal with Customs.

 

3 types of import traffic -

 

1) Under bond. Customs clearance at an inland "port" such as Hither Green, Paddock Wood, LIFT (Stratford), MIFT (Trafford Park) Hull Central (perishables only) and in later years  BIFT (Lawley St) and GIFT (Mossend)   All the inland ports dealt with both perishables and generals, with the exception of Hull. This all depended on the ageements that the importer had with HMCE. Documents to enable clearance were either attached in the wagon label cage, or in the case of Hither Green or Paddock Wood with a bulk train load, were given in care of the guard.  Traffic other than for HG and PWT, was generally penny lots, and passed via normal freight services and in later years Speedlink. 

 

2) Provincial Fruit known as "Provs" to the locals. These were customs cleared at Dover, usually within an hour of landing in the Ferry yard, perishable traffic tended to be repeatative in nature and with the same importer so HMCE were not generally interested in stopping these wagons, the only ones that sometimes took longer were peaches and grapes from Greece and sometimes apples from Franch, as these did not pass in volume and there were occasional errors on the documents. In later years HMCE would sometimes pull a Transfesa of onions for training new sniffer dogs, it was always interesting to watch the new recruits scrambling over 26 tons of netted onions to find the bag of contraband planted by their handlers. 

 

3) Generals everything not catered for above. Again regular flows were cleared within a few hours of arrival, new or occasional traffic took longer depending on the arrangements the import had. Remeber back in the day, import duty had to be paid on lots of traffic so payments would be secured before clearance was granted. The longest delay was over a year for a wagon of Yugoslavian bottled beer for a new importer in Northampton, unfortunatly the company never took delivery as they went out of business. The contents were disposed of locally 🤣

 

The general rule was that wagons provs and generals were not supposed to leave the old ferry yard until clearance was receieved in case any wagons were pulled for a turn out and tally. 

 

Following are the recollections of Dover driver John Linge who, is a keen railway man and a very interesting man to chat too. It should answer most of the questions raised on here, bare in mind what John descibes is what happened on the day, not what the "book" said should happen. 

 

"There were overhead wires in the Town Yard, and Bulwark Street Reception siding. It should be remembered that until the 1970s there was no access into the Town Yard from the Folkestone direction, all arriving trains from that direction running into Bulwark Street. The Reception line extended alongside the main line to the stops almost opposite the points of Hawkesbury Street Junction, although the overhead only extended to the old Viaduct, then for the last length a 3rd rail was provided. When trains of extreme length that could not be accomodated in Bulwark Street arrived hauled by Class 71 locos (such as the car train from Knowle and Dorridge, which originally changed loco's at Longhedge Junction and was hauled by a 71 to Dover and was made up of six Cartic 4s) the train was split into two parts on the main line, the front portion was pulled into the Reception Road, then either the Town Pilot came over and placed it straight into the Military or into the Town Yard, or the train loco pushed it back up the Cliff siding, which was between the main line and the cliff face, back towards Folkestone. After the front portion had been disposed of, the train engine ran back out onto the Down Main (passing the "dummy" at danger, as no Limit of Shunt was provided on the Down Main) and retrieved the rear portion and pulled it into the Reception road. This was very time consuming, especially at the beginning of the morning peak when this train arrived, and the addition of the facing crossover allowing trains from Folkestone direct access to Dover Town was a considerable improvement.

 

The very short No. 1 Road (which like No. 2 were not through roads then) at Dover Town was always fitted with a short length of conductor rail, to allow 71s to be stabled there, as they were not allowed to be shut down "under the wire". This was because the overhead was only designed for low powered moves in yards, and if a Booster Set was started when the overhead was in use there was a very real danger danger that the power needed would cause the wire to behave like a fuse, and they all came down.

 

There were, in the early seventies, four "Continental" ferry van trains to Hither Green each day, 0030, 0810, 1615 and 2035. All 71 worked and, apart from the 0030, generally started from No. 1 Ferry Siding, and were booked via Chatham. No. 1 Ferry was fitted with a conductor rail. The 0030 usually started from Dover Town, and was booked via Folkestone. There was also an 1155 to Faversham, and as well as ferryvans, conveyed the BSK that was used to provide the passenger accommodation on the down Faversham-Dover portion of the down Chatham Newspaper train. This train started from Dover Town, pushing out of the Yard towards Folkestone.

 

The use of 71s was restricting, and, when there was an overload of traffic from the continent I remember that very occasionally the Ferry Pilot would push a raft of Ferryvans into one of the Marine platform roads and the train would start from there.

 

Later, when the 71s were withdrawn and 73s and Diesels took over it was not unusual for (when room was at a premium in the Ferry and Town Yards) these trains to be started from the East and West roads on the pier.

 

It was also not unusual then (before Paddock Wood was in operation) for vans to be placed in the sidings on the up at St. Mary Cray and less often at Bromley South when Hither Green was overloaded with fruit, and returning empties were often berthed on the Down at Selling."

 

HTH 

Simon

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Thanks for publishing that, Simon. Very interesting stuff. It would be nice to see that level of traffic these days. Where are you based these days? Doncaster?

[Simon Lee]

2 hours ago, Fat Controller said:

Thanks for publishing that, Simon. Very interesting stuff. It would be nice to see that level of traffic these days. Where are you based these days? Doncaster?

Hi Brian, 

 

They were really great times. I started 1981 at Dover then onto Dollands finally leaving in 1999 for Doncaster CSDC.

 

There was certainly never a dull day at Dover, we worked hard and played hard, and then being involved at Dollands from a greenfield site up to opening in 1994 was something I will never forget. 

 

Certainly we felt we were in on something unique and special, maybe the same for you and your colleages ? 

 

I took the money in 2015 and now live in Germany where there is luckily a healthy freight scene, 10 minutes cycle ride and I can be lineside on the right Rheine side majority freight line,  quiet times  6 - 8  TPH !!

 

 

 

 

 

 

[bécasse]

9 hours ago, Simon Lee said:

The very short No. 1 Road (which like No. 2 were not through roads then) at Dover Town was always fitted with a short length of conductor rail, to allow 71s to be stabled there, as they were not allowed to be shut down "under the wire". This was because the overhead was only designed for low powered moves in yards, and if a Booster Set was started when the overhead was in use there was a very real danger danger that the power needed would cause the wire to behave like a fuse, and they all came down.

Which I find interesting and perfectly logical.

 

However I lived alongside Hither Green SS and I would swear (even though it is now 60 years ago) that the E50xx locos which regularly sat in a siding (loop?) at the Grove Park end of the down sidings normally did so with their pans up. Except for seeing one moving LE on Mr Angerstein's Railway on one occasion, it was the only time that I actually saw any of the class with their pans up. The siding/loop may well have had boarded third-rail as well, of course.

[teeinox]

9 hours ago, Simon Lee said:

Lots of interesting information to hand now thanks to a couple of old hands from Dover.

 

First lets deal with Customs.

 

3 types of import traffic -

 

1) Under bond. Customs clearance at an inland "port" such as Hither Green, Paddock Wood, LIFT (Stratford), MIFT (Trafford Park) Hull Central (perishables only) and in later years  BIFT (Lawley St) and GIFT (Mossend)   All the inland ports dealt with both perishables and generals, with the exception of Hull. This all depended on the ageements that the importer had with HMCE. Documents to enable clearance were either attached in the wagon label cage, or in the case of Hither Green or Paddock Wood with a bulk train load, were given in care of the guard.  Traffic other than for HG and PWT, was generally penny lots, and passed via normal freight services and in later years Speedlink. 

 

2) Provincial Fruit known as "Provs" to the locals. These were customs cleared at Dover, usually within an hour of landing in the Ferry yard, perishable traffic tended to be repeatative in nature and with the same importer so HMCE were not generally interested in stopping these wagons, the only ones that sometimes took longer were peaches and grapes from Greece and sometimes apples from Franch, as these did not pass in volume and there were occasional errors on the documents. In later years HMCE would sometimes pull a Transfesa of onions for training new sniffer dogs, it was always interesting to watch the new recruits scrambling over 26 tons of netted onions to find the bag of contraband planted by their handlers. 

 

3) Generals everything not catered for above. Again regular flows were cleared within a few hours of arrival, new or occasional traffic took longer depending on the arrangements the import had. Remeber back in the day, import duty had to be paid on lots of traffic so payments would be secured before clearance was granted. The longest delay was over a year for a wagon of Yugoslavian bottled beer for a new importer in Northampton, unfortunatly the company never took delivery as they went out of business. The contents were disposed of locally 🤣

 

The general rule was that wagons provs and generals were not supposed to leave the old ferry yard until clearance was receieved in case any wagons were pulled for a turn out and tally. 

 

Following are the recollections of Dover driver John Linge who, is a keen railway man and a very interesting man to chat too. It should answer most of the questions raised on here, bare in mind what John descibes is what happened on the day, not what the "book" said should happen. 

 

"There were overhead wires in the Town Yard, and Bulwark Street Reception siding. It should be remembered that until the 1970s there was no access into the Town Yard from the Folkestone direction, all arriving trains from that direction running into Bulwark Street. The Reception line extended alongside the main line to the stops almost opposite the points of Hawkesbury Street Junction, although the overhead only extended to the old Viaduct, then for the last length a 3rd rail was provided. When trains of extreme length that could not be accomodated in Bulwark Street arrived hauled by Class 71 locos (such as the car train from Knowle and Dorridge, which originally changed loco's at Longhedge Junction and was hauled by a 71 to Dover and was made up of six Cartic 4s) the train was split into two parts on the main line, the front portion was pulled into the Reception Road, then either the Town Pilot came over and placed it straight into the Military or into the Town Yard, or the train loco pushed it back up the Cliff siding, which was between the main line and the cliff face, back towards Folkestone. After the front portion had been disposed of, the train engine ran back out onto the Down Main (passing the "dummy" at danger, as no Limit of Shunt was provided on the Down Main) and retrieved the rear portion and pulled it into the Reception road. This was very time consuming, especially at the beginning of the morning peak when this train arrived, and the addition of the facing crossover allowing trains from Folkestone direct access to Dover Town was a considerable improvement.

 

The very short No. 1 Road (which like No. 2 were not through roads then) at Dover Town was always fitted with a short length of conductor rail, to allow 71s to be stabled there, as they were not allowed to be shut down "under the wire". This was because the overhead was only designed for low powered moves in yards, and if a Booster Set was started when the overhead was in use there was a very real danger danger that the power needed would cause the wire to behave like a fuse, and they all came down.

 

There were, in the early seventies, four "Continental" ferry van trains to Hither Green each day, 0030, 0810, 1615 and 2035. All 71 worked and, apart from the 0030, generally started from No. 1 Ferry Siding, and were booked via Chatham. No. 1 Ferry was fitted with a conductor rail. The 0030 usually started from Dover Town, and was booked via Folkestone. There was also an 1155 to Faversham, and as well as ferryvans, conveyed the BSK that was used to provide the passenger accommodation on the down Faversham-Dover portion of the down Chatham Newspaper train. This train started from Dover Town, pushing out of the Yard towards Folkestone.

 

The use of 71s was restricting, and, when there was an overload of traffic from the continent I remember that very occasionally the Ferry Pilot would push a raft of Ferryvans into one of the Marine platform roads and the train would start from there.

 

Later, when the 71s were withdrawn and 73s and Diesels took over it was not unusual for (when room was at a premium in the Ferry and Town Yards) these trains to be started from the East and West roads on the pier.

 

It was also not unusual then (before Paddock Wood was in operation) for vans to be placed in the sidings on the up at St. Mary Cray and less often at Bromley South when Hither Green was overloaded with fruit, and returning empties were often berthed on the Down at Selling."

 

HTH 

Simon

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Simon, many thanks for the detailed information: amazing!

 

I wonder, though, does anyone know how things were organised at Dunkerque?  Were there specific trains from, say, Spain, that were timetabled to make a particular ferry connection?  And was train ferry capacity “pre-booked” for specific services and numbers of wagons, or was there some sort of queuing system at Dunkerque?  The same question applies to the other way round, too, when leaving Dover on the ferry back to continental Europe.

 

teeinox

[keefer]

42 minutes ago, bécasse said:

Which I find interesting and perfectly logical.

 

However I lived alongside Hither Green SS and I would swear (even though it is now 60 years ago) that the E50xx locos which regularly sat in a siding (loop?) at the Grove Park end of the down sidings normally did so with their pans up. Except for seeing one moving LE on Mr Angerstein's Railway on one occasion, it was the only time that I actually saw any of the class with their pans up. The siding/loop may well have had boarded third-rail as well, of course.

How did the 'booster' set work? If a loco was parked 'pan-up' did the booster set keep running i.e. on low revs/'tickover'? If so, then the locos you saw parked pan-up would be fine, it was only the locos that were fully shut-down and needed to restart the booster that drew too much current?

[SED Freightman]

On 28/06/2022 at 10:48, Simon Lee said:

Lots of interesting information to hand now thanks to a couple of old hands from Dover.

 

First lets deal with Customs.

 

3 types of import traffic -

 

1) Under bond. Customs clearance at an inland "port" such as Hither Green, Paddock Wood, LIFT (Stratford), MIFT (Trafford Park) Hull Central (perishables only) and in later years  BIFT (Lawley St) and GIFT (Mossend)   All the inland ports dealt with both perishables and generals, with the exception of Hull. This all depended on the ageements that the importer had with HMCE. Documents to enable clearance were either attached in the wagon label cage, or in the case of Hither Green or Paddock Wood with a bulk train load, were given in care of the guard.  Traffic other than for HG and PWT, was generally penny lots, and passed via normal freight services and in later years Speedlink. 

 

2) Provincial Fruit known as "Provs" to the locals. These were customs cleared at Dover, usually within an hour of landing in the Ferry yard, perishable traffic tended to be repeatative in nature and with the same importer so HMCE were not generally interested in stopping these wagons, the only ones that sometimes took longer were peaches and grapes from Greece and sometimes apples from Franch, as these did not pass in volume and there were occasional errors on the documents. In later years HMCE would sometimes pull a Transfesa of onions for training new sniffer dogs, it was always interesting to watch the new recruits scrambling over 26 tons of netted onions to find the bag of contraband planted by their handlers. 

 

3) Generals everything not catered for above. Again regular flows were cleared within a few hours of arrival, new or occasional traffic took longer depending on the arrangements the import had. Remeber back in the day, import duty had to be paid on lots of traffic so payments would be secured before clearance was granted. The longest delay was over a year for a wagon of Yugoslavian bottled beer for a new importer in Northampton, unfortunatly the company never took delivery as they went out of business. The contents were disposed of locally 🤣

 

The general rule was that wagons provs and generals were not supposed to leave the old ferry yard until clearance was receieved in case any wagons were pulled for a turn out and tally. 

 

Following are the recollections of Dover driver John Linge who, is a keen railway man and a very interesting man to chat too. It should answer most of the questions raised on here, bare in mind what John descibes is what happened on the day, not what the "book" said should happen. 

 

"There were overhead wires in the Town Yard, and Bulwark Street Reception siding. It should be remembered that until the 1970s there was no access into the Town Yard from the Folkestone direction, all arriving trains from that direction running into Bulwark Street. The Reception line extended alongside the main line to the stops almost opposite the points of Hawkesbury Street Junction, although the overhead only extended to the old Viaduct, then for the last length a 3rd rail was provided. When trains of extreme length that could not be accomodated in Bulwark Street arrived hauled by Class 71 locos (such as the car train from Knowle and Dorridge, which originally changed loco's at Longhedge Junction and was hauled by a 71 to Dover and was made up of six Cartic 4s) the train was split into two parts on the main line, the front portion was pulled into the Reception Road, then either the Town Pilot came over and placed it straight into the Military or into the Town Yard, or the train loco pushed it back up the Cliff siding, which was between the main line and the cliff face, back towards Folkestone. After the front portion had been disposed of, the train engine ran back out onto the Down Main (passing the "dummy" at danger, as no Limit of Shunt was provided on the Down Main) and retrieved the rear portion and pulled it into the Reception road. This was very time consuming, especially at the beginning of the morning peak when this train arrived, and the addition of the facing crossover allowing trains from Folkestone direct access to Dover Town was a considerable improvement.

 

The very short No. 1 Road (which like No. 2 were not through roads then) at Dover Town was always fitted with a short length of conductor rail, to allow 71s to be stabled there, as they were not allowed to be shut down "under the wire". This was because the overhead was only designed for low powered moves in yards, and if a Booster Set was started when the overhead was in use there was a very real danger danger that the power needed would cause the wire to behave like a fuse, and they all came down.

 

There were, in the early seventies, four "Continental" ferry van trains to Hither Green each day, 0030, 0810, 1615 and 2035. All 71 worked and, apart from the 0030, generally started from No. 1 Ferry Siding, and were booked via Chatham. No. 1 Ferry was fitted with a conductor rail. The 0030 usually started from Dover Town, and was booked via Folkestone. There was also an 1155 to Faversham, and as well as ferryvans, conveyed the BSK that was used to provide the passenger accommodation on the down Faversham-Dover portion of the down Chatham Newspaper train. This train started from Dover Town, pushing out of the Yard towards Folkestone.

 

The use of 71s was restricting, and, when there was an overload of traffic from the continent I remember that very occasionally the Ferry Pilot would push a raft of Ferryvans into one of the Marine platform roads and the train would start from there.

 

Later, when the 71s were withdrawn and 73s and Diesels took over it was not unusual for (when room was at a premium in the Ferry and Town Yards) these trains to be started from the East and West roads on the pier.

 

It was also not unusual then (before Paddock Wood was in operation) for vans to be placed in the sidings on the up at St. Mary Cray and less often at Bromley South when Hither Green was overloaded with fruit, and returning empties were often berthed on the Down at Selling."

 

HTH 

Simon

Simon, many thanks for providing this information along with the additional comments on actual operation from John Linge.  It would appear that several of the services shown to depart from Dover Marine in the WTT actually operated to / from the Town Yard or Bulwark St which makes a lot more sense considering the extent of 3rd rail and OHL within the various sidings.

[Simon Lee]

On 28/06/2022 at 20:06, teeinox said:

Simon, many thanks for the detailed information: amazing!

 

I wonder, though, does anyone know how things were organised at Dunkerque?  Were there specific trains from, say, Spain, that were timetabled to make a particular ferry connection?  And was train ferry capacity “pre-booked” for specific services and numbers of wagons, or was there some sort of queuing system at Dunkerque?  The same question applies to the other way round, too, when leaving Dover on the ferry back to continental Europe.

 

teeinox

 

Yes there was a block Transfesa train from Hendayne to Dunkerque arriving around 0600/0700 each day. The various wagons would congregate at the Spanish side of the border at Irun for wheel change then run overnight to Dunkerque.

 

The 0930/1000 ferry was virtually always full of perishables any left overs would follow on the 1200 ferry, both would connect with the afternoon trunk services to Tyne and Bescot.

 

Perishables naturally took priority on the import direction.  Export wise, we had a regular flow of between 2 and 4 VTG bogie vans from Ford engine plant at Bridgend to Ford at  Saarlouis they were always top priority on 6O50 0150 Seven Tunnel to Dover and then straight on to the 1230 sailing. 6O50 was booked via the Chatham and into the Town yard, invariably we would run it straight into the Ferry yard ready for the sailing such was the importance of the Ford traffic.

 

The the monthly flow of China clay always took priority on 2 overnight sailings. 2 wagons came via Network services and were held to meet the 2 x 11 wagon block trains. Due to loading and stability issues on the older ships, we could only load 6 wagons down the centre straights, always with 2 empty ferry's leading to prevent the ship being down by the head. The ballasting system of the small ferries was designed around the wagons of the day, never envisaging the large bogie wagons that came in the late 70s and 80s. 

All the laying out of the export wagons was done by the shunters mental  calculations, to ensure the maximum load and stability. Never did we have any incidents on the sea, the mutual trust and respect of the shunters and ships crew saw to that. 

 

The key to the availability of export shipping,  was the correct documentation, back the docs came via Royal Mail or wagonside, once checked the shipping clerks would advise a list of all wagons with correct documents once a full load had been identified the clerks would present the docs for Customs clearance and prepared a ships bag of documents and manifest. Railway owned empty wagons passed without documentation, as did empty Transfesa wagons.

 

[teeinox]

9 hours ago, Simon Lee said:

 

Yes there was a block Transfesa train from Hendayne to Dunkerque arriving around 0600/0700 each day. The various wagons would congregate at the Spanish side of the border at Irun for wheel change then run overnight to Dunkerque.

 

The 0930/1000 ferry was virtually always full of perishables any left overs would follow on the 1200 ferry, both would connect with the afternoon trunk services to Tyne and Bescot.

 

Perishables naturally took priority on the import direction.  Export wise, we had a regular flow of between 2 and 4 VTG bogie vans from Ford engine plant at Bridgend to Ford at  Saarlouis they were always top priority on 6O50 0150 Seven Tunnel to Dover and then straight on to the 1230 sailing. 6O50 was booked via the Chatham and into the Town yard, invariably we would run it straight into the Ferry yard ready for the sailing such was the importance of the Ford traffic.

 

The the monthly flow of China clay always took priority on 2 overnight sailings. 2 wagons came via Network services and were held to meet the 2 x 11 wagon block trains. Due to loading and stability issues on the older ships, we could only load 6 wagons down the centre straights, always with 2 empty ferry's leading to prevent the ship being down by the head. The ballasting system of the small ferries was designed around the wagons of the day, never envisaging the large bogie wagons that came in the late 70s and 80s. 

All the laying out of the export wagons was done by the shunters mental  calculations, to ensure the maximum load and stability. Never did we have any incidents on the sea, the mutual trust and respect of the shunters and ships crew saw to that. 

 

The key to the availability of export shipping,  was the correct documentation, back the docs came via Royal Mail or wagonside, once checked the shipping clerks would advise a list of all wagons with correct documents once a full load had been identified the clerks would present the docs for Customs clearance and prepared a ships bag of documents and manifest. Railway owned empty wagons passed without documentation, as did empty Transfesa wagons.

 

Many thanks for all your research, Simon and SED Freightman.

 

Is it possible from all this information to establish what would be an overall timetable for, say, a perishables train from leaving Southern Spain, the main growing area, to it arriving in a terminal depot in the U.K.?  If we base the timetable around the overnight block train from Hendaye to Dunkerque, is there any information on how long typical transits took across Spain to get to Irun/Hendaye?  It would not have been quick.  Spain is a big country, and its railways were not fast.

 

My understanding is that the 09.30/10.00 ferry took most of the traffic from this service, with the overspill on the !2.00 sailing, as you describe.  So, a speculative timetable might look like:

 

Day 1:

From early morning to evening:  Southern Spain to Irun.

Late evening leave Hendaye for Dunkerque.

 

Day 2:

Early morning arrival at Dunkerque.

Take 09.30/10.00 or 12.00 ferry to Dover.

Take afternoon services to Tyne and Bescot, arriving in the evening.

 

That looks to me like the best part of 48 hours.  Not such a problem for onions, but did soft fruit and salad vegetables have to travel Interfrigo because of the time it took?  And if the Interfrigo was ice-cooled, did the ice last that long, or was it replenished en-route?

 

teeinox

[Wickham Green too]

Certainly sounds like Simon Lee and SED Freightman know their onions ................... as for soft fruit and salad vegetables, I think we're talking about a time when such things were still seasonal and we didn't expect to find them on our supermarket greengrocer's shelves all year round !

[Simon Lee]

19 hours ago, teeinox said:

Many thanks for all your research, Simon and SED Freightman.

 

Is it possible from all this information to establish what would be an overall timetable for, say, a perishables train from leaving Southern Spain, the main growing area, to it arriving in a terminal depot in the U.K.?  If we base the timetable around the overnight block train from Hendaye to Dunkerque, is there any information on how long typical transits took across Spain to get to Irun/Hendaye?  It would not have been quick.  Spain is a big country, and its railways were not fast.

 

My understanding is that the 09.30/10.00 ferry took most of the traffic from this service, with the overspill on the !2.00 sailing, as you describe.  So, a speculative timetable might look like:

 

Day 1:

From early morning to evening:  Southern Spain to Irun.

Late evening leave Hendaye for Dunkerque.

 

Day 2:

Early morning arrival at Dunkerque.

Take 09.30/10.00 or 12.00 ferry to Dover.

Take afternoon services to Tyne and Bescot, arriving in the evening.

 

That looks to me like the best part of 48 hours.  Not such a problem for onions, but did soft fruit and salad vegetables have to travel Interfrigo because of the time it took?  And if the Interfrigo was ice-cooled, did the ice last that long, or was it replenished en-route?

 

teeinox

 

Transfesa's  main flows from the Iberian peninsular was oranges both eating and for marmelade, plus the big tennis ball size onions. Both of which have a slow deterioration rate.

 

Transit times were around 4 days origin to terminal, depending 

 

Day 1

Depart loading point in Spain en route Hendayne

 

Day 2

Wheelset change /Customs docs 

 

Depart Hendayne 1600/1700

 

Day 3 

Arrive Dunkerque 0700

Arrive Dover 1100/1200

Depart Dover 1600/1700

 

The 2 trunk services from Dover in the afternoon were

 

6E53 1548 to Tyne, via Hoo, Temple Mills,traffic for LIFT,  Offord and Buckden Superior International traffic, Doncaster, Hull, Sheffield Parkway Market traffic, Dringhouses, and Tyne Low Fell Market traffic.

 

6M94 1652 via WIllesden, to Bescot conveyed traffic for BIFT, Ardwick, MIFT, Spekeland Road.

 

Scottish traffic waited for the next days 6S73 to Mossend.

 

Day 4 

Arrive local yard and terminal

 

 

The majority of the soft fruit, grapes and peaches travelling by rail came from Italy. not sure if it was reiced en route, certainly I never saw any facilities at Dunkerque for icing.

 

There was no traffic in salad vegetables, as by this time the Dutch had largely captured the market, and Channel Islands traffic came via road and the CI ferries. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[SED Freightman]

Although relating to exports rather than imports, this document from the days (early 1980's ?) when BR were still trying to attract train ferry traffic gives an idea of transit times to various continental destinations.