Southern region ferry van trains: what sort of brake vans did they have (if any)?

[teeinox]

SED Freightman: many thanks for all of this!

 

Basically, it looks like you could get anywhere in France, Belgium, Netherlands or Switzerland the next day.  In contrast, Spain and Portugal, 6-7 days!  I think, too, that this document dates from the early 1980s.  It looks as if it is from before Sealink’s privatisation, which was 1984.

 

I was looking at some web-sites about border stations.  Irun-Hendaye was clearly a real problem with a cramped and congested site, coupled with RENFE’s (at the time) persistent late running and SNCF’s equally persistent difficulty in finding motive power. The Portbou/Cerbère crossing was just as diificult.  We don’t have any photos of the Irun/Hendaye installation in our archive, but we do have a couple of Portbou/Cerbère.  Here they are, dating from 1979:

 

 

And for detail of the extraordinary wheel-change installation:

 

 

I’ve been told that the high speed line built from Perpignan to Barcelona was, apparently at the insistence of the Spanish authorities, built with facilities such as loops to allow it to be used for freight.  Anything to get rid of the problems and delays of gauge change, at least as far as Barcelona port.

 

Incidentally, was there any equivalent from the Portbou/Cerbère crossing to the Irun/Hendaye to Dunkerque Transfesa train?

[Mike Storey]

On 30/06/2022 at 11:13, Simon Lee said:

 

Yes there was a block Transfesa train from Hendayne to Dunkerque arriving around 0600/0700 each day. The various wagons would congregate at the Spanish side of the border at Irun for wheel change then run overnight to Dunkerque.

 

The 0930/1000 ferry was virtually always full of perishables any left overs would follow on the 1200 ferry, both would connect with the afternoon trunk services to Tyne and Bescot.

 

Perishables naturally took priority on the import direction.  Export wise, we had a regular flow of between 2 and 4 VTG bogie vans from Ford engine plant at Bridgend to Ford at  Saarlouis they were always top priority on 6O50 0150 Seven Tunnel to Dover and then straight on to the 1230 sailing. 6O50 was booked via the Chatham and into the Town yard, invariably we would run it straight into the Ferry yard ready for the sailing such was the importance of the Ford traffic.

 

The the monthly flow of China clay always took priority on 2 overnight sailings. 2 wagons came via Network services and were held to meet the 2 x 11 wagon block trains. Due to loading and stability issues on the older ships, we could only load 6 wagons down the centre straights, always with 2 empty ferry's leading to prevent the ship being down by the head. The ballasting system of the small ferries was designed around the wagons of the day, never envisaging the large bogie wagons that came in the late 70s and 80s. 

All the laying out of the export wagons was done by the shunters mental  calculations, to ensure the maximum load and stability. Never did we have any incidents on the sea, the mutual trust and respect of the shunters and ships crew saw to that. 

 

The key to the availability of export shipping,  was the correct documentation, back the docs came via Royal Mail or wagonside, once checked the shipping clerks would advise a list of all wagons with correct documents once a full load had been identified the clerks would present the docs for Customs clearance and prepared a ships bag of documents and manifest. Railway owned empty wagons passed without documentation, as did empty Transfesa wagons.

 

 

I support all of that, having been a junior shunter on the linkspan for a summer in 74 or 75. Although I basically only made the tea, and ran paper consists to and from Snargate Radio (where they would be transmitted/received to/from Dunkerque), I saw what and how the chargeman shunter organised loading. I would occasionally be needed if two men were needed to relay the shunter's commands from the rear to the propelling driver(s), but otherwise largely stood and stared, just making sure the lamps and tackle were in the right places.

 

Little did I know that, only 7 or 8 years later, I would be making out the 6 part consist forms for the empties we used to send from Sittingbourne (AJ Woods ex-onion, for Spain, and bamboo furniture vans for Italy) and Bowaters French China Clay bogie tanks for France and Italy) back across the channel. They were an absolute bu88er, and five copies had to be placed on each wagon, in a plastic bag. Why (apart from the odd furniture van), I have no idea, as they all left us as block trains. Your description now gives some meaning as to what happened, after some 40 years!!

 

I attach a pic which might help towards understanding how Dover worked, at least for the car and Transfesa trains. I believe this was taken in the early 80's, but I stand to be corrected - it is one I have had on my hard drive for many years!

 

 

 

 

[teeinox]

15 hours ago, Mike Storey said:

 

I support all of that, having been a junior shunter on the linkspan for a summer in 74 or 75. Although I basically only made the tea, and ran paper consists to and from Snargate Radio (where they would be transmitted/received to/from Dunkerque), I saw what and how the chargeman shunter organised loading. I would occasionally be needed if two men were needed to relay the shunter's commands from the rear to the propelling driver(s), but otherwise largely stood and stared, just making sure the lamps and tackle were in the right places.

 

Little did I know that, only 7 or 8 years later, I would be making out the 6 part consist forms for the empties we used to send from Sittingbourne (AJ Woods ex-onion, for Spain, and bamboo furniture vans for Italy) and Bowaters French China Clay bogie tanks for France and Italy) back across the channel. They were an absolute bu88er, and five copies had to be placed on each wagon, in a plastic bag. Why (apart from the odd furniture van), I have no idea, as they all left us as block trains. Your description now gives some meaning as to what happened, after some 40 years!!

 

I attach a pic which might help towards understanding how Dover worked, at least for the car and Transfesa trains. I believe this was taken in the early 80's, but I stand to be corrected - it is one I have had on my hard drive for many years!

 

 

 

 

Most interesting!  I guess what I am seeing in the photo, not knowing Dover too well, is the Town Yard on the right, and the car loading/unloading ramp on the left with the cartics arriving/leaving?

 

But what is Snargate Radio, and what role did it play?  Was this the main information channel?  What sort of information was transmitted between you and Dunkerque?  And in what language(s) was the conversation conducted?   What was it like dealing with our friends in Dunkerque?

[Mike Storey]

54 minutes ago, teeinox said:

Most interesting!  I guess what I am seeing in the photo, not knowing Dover too well, is the Town Yard on the right, and the car loading/unloading ramp on the left with the cartics arriving/leaving?

 

But what is Snargate Radio, and what role did it play?  Was this the main information channel?  What sort of information was transmitted between you and Dunkerque?  And in what language(s) was the conversation conducted?   What was it like dealing with our friends in Dunkerque?

 

Yes, to the first. The ramp was used for cars that would be driven on to, or off, the ferries, as opposed to being transported by rail.

 

As for Snargate Radio, it was, at the time, the primary communication channel for all cross-channel, and, I think , but am not sure, trans-channel shipping. It was on the top floor, or second from top (it was a lot of stairs to climb), of the old Lord Warden Hotel, built right next to the old Dover Town station, which became railway/military offices during WW2 and was re-named Southern House by the 50's. All messages were in English. I do not know much else about it, as I was only allowed to enter to deposit or collect consists and other messages for our Chargeman, or for the Sealink rep. (a person whose title I never knew, but who liaised with the Chargeman.) The messages were either consist summaries of the wagons being loaded, or on their way to us, including occasionally fault or maintenance details of the wagons themselves, or ones about changes to ships, timings, ballast (for the rising dock) or other matters pertaining to the shipping operations. I did not read too many of them in any detail. You were not encouraged to stick around upstairs! I believe it shut several years later, in favour of a more modern comms and radar centre on the top of the cliff (which I think is still there, operated by the Coastguard). I think I am right in saying that Snargate comms centre was established during WW2, so its kit and organisation was probably outdated even by my time. The whole building was eventually sold off anyway. 

 

Just as an aside, when I managed to get a permanent job after my work at Dover, with Sealink strangely, at Victoria, I was placed into a WW2 hut (which had been the temporary mail room, when the original was bombed in WW2), stuffed with 9 desks and a supervisors desk, where we answered public enquiries, on E/M/L shifts, about all train-boat-train services across Europe, for the whole of the UK. The set up reminded me of Snargate radio, with its antiquated switch phone gear, WW2 bomber headsets and mechanical counting box, with a loud buzzer that went off when more than 10 calls were waiting! There were 21 of us, on shifts, and we did not even have a rest room, just a tiny kitchen with a kettle and disgusting fridge, and the toilet was outside, down the alley to the side..... it really was a whole lifetime ago! No wonder we all used to escape to the pub for our 54 minute lunch breaks, when on 12/14 hour shifts (most of the summer at least). I stayed there for three whole years, when I could easily have got a promotion elsewhere after one, because only three of us were men and the rest, not men, not old and bar one, not married......

 

 

 

Edited July 5, 2022 by Mike Storey

[hmrspaul]

Some photos of the car loading ramp at Dover as on the aerial view

https://PaulBartlett.zenfolio.com/carramp/e5cecdd96

https://PaulBartlett.zenfolio.com/carramp/e738e1318

https://PaulBartlett.zenfolio.com/carramp/ec858e118

 

Paul

 

[Dunsignalling]

The final goods traffic to Honiton consisted of specialised bagged clay in vans for a German owned ceramics factory (Rosenthal) in nearby Colyton.

 

Before my time on the railway and before I moved to Honiton but I do remember sightings from passing trains.

 

I rescued the Honiton Goods Register when it was in danger of being binned during Privatisation. I can't currently lay hands on it but IIRC, it was normally a single van, tripped up from Exeter and the last occurrence was c1981, after which the deliveries (presumably) went over to road transport.

 

Not sure if the source was UK or Germany, so it might have been a ferry van.  The wagon numbers in the book should confirm/deny when I find it again.

 

John

 

 

[Simon Lee]

Snargate radio was the Southern and the BR marine departments private radio channel, for passing messages regarding ships departure times, eta, cargo numbers most importantly passenger numbers for boat trains and any extras required, stores or bunker requirements as well as general housekeeping requirements for the ships. Snargate shuffled along until around 1982/83, when in was put out of its misery prior to privatisation.

 

If you watch the DVD "Link Span" you will see the basic system in action on the Harwich route, I believe their call sign was "Marine Harwich"

 

Most messages would be passed in Morse code, though in later years as equipment improved then spoken word messages would be in English.

 

There was no involvement in ships transiting the channel, any monitoring being done by radio stations at North Foreland or Dungeness and when the were involved in working ships the Trinity House pilot station at Folkestone. The main MRCC at Dover and French equivalent CROSSMA Griz Nes only came into existence in the late 70s after the loss of the Texico Carribean, Brandenburg and the Niki in multiple collisions early in 1971. These losses were the start of the channel routing system still in use to this day.

 

 

 

 

 

[Mike Storey]

1 hour ago, Simon Lee said:

Snargate radio was the Southern and the BR marine departments private radio channel, for passing messages regarding ships departure times, eta, cargo numbers most importantly passenger numbers for boat trains and any extras required, stores or bunker requirements as well as general housekeeping requirements for the ships. Snargate shuffled along until around 1982/83, when in was put out of its misery prior to privatisation.

 

If you watch the DVD "Link Span" you will see the basic system in action on the Harwich route, I believe their call sign was "Marine Harwich"

 

Most messages would be passed in Morse code, though in later years as equipment improved then spoken word messages would be in English.

 

There was no involvement in ships transiting the channel, any monitoring being done by radio stations at North Foreland or Dungeness and when the were involved in working ships the Trinity House pilot station at Folkestone. The main MRCC at Dover and French equivalent CROSSMA Griz Nes only came into existence in the late 70s after the loss of the Texico Carribean, Brandenburg and the Niki in multiple collisions early in 1971. These losses were the start of the channel routing system still in use to this day.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Many thanks - that makes more sense than my teenage recollections!

 

But just one point. Although Snargate radio was run by BR's Shipping and International Services Division (S&ISD, not SR), I am pretty certain they were passing messages for Townsend Thoresen ferries too, as I saw their notepaper regularly, when calling in. Although, even though I was working exclusively for the train ferries, I was paid, according to the payslips, by BR (SR). Whereas, when at Sealink Victoria, my payslips showed S&ISD. Bizarre.

 

I do recall we had to ring Snargate from Victoria, with the loadings of every boat train (as part of the job required one of us to go out to the gate of every departure and count passengers on), and they would ring us with the back loadings. Not that we did anything with that info, other than file it.

 

[The Lurker]

Why "Snargate"?

 

Wikipedia tells me it's a village near New Romney (which is scarcely more than a village itself), but that doesn't in itself give much of a clue. 

 

If it had origins back in WW2, was it some kind of diversionary name?

[Simon Lee]

1 hour ago, The Lurker said:

Why "Snargate"?

 

Wikipedia tells me it's a village near New Romney (which is scarcely more than a village itself), but that doesn't in itself give much of a clue. 

 

If it had origins back in WW2, was it some kind of diversionary name?

 

Also Snargate Street runs from Dover town centre to the Western docks, still in existance as part of the A20 between Limekiln roundabout and York Street roundabout.

 

I will ask the question among former ferry colleagues see if they can provide any answer. Snargate village is a very pleasant marsh village about as far removed from the hurley burley of Dover as you can get.

[bécasse]

I think that its origins lie with being a telegraphic address SNARGATE DOVER chosen to be distinctive (with a maximum of 8 letters) as with SUDESTIA LONDON for Victoria (continental). I suspect that both date back to the formation of the Management Committee, certainly both were in use before the Great War.

[Wickham Green too]

1 hour ago, The Lurker said:

Why "Snargate"? ....

..... 'cos they didn't want to use "Watergate" or "Partygate" or .............. 🙄

[Mike Storey]

14 hours ago, The Lurker said:

Why "Snargate"?

 

Wikipedia tells me it's a village near New Romney (which is scarcely more than a village itself), but that doesn't in itself give much of a clue. 

 

If it had origins back in WW2, was it some kind of diversionary name?

 

Snargate Radio perhaps derives its name from Snargate Street, just behind the old Lord Warden Hotel.

 

The name Snargate probably originated from the River Dour, which was a large river then, which had begun to silt up at its estuary with the Channel before the Normans came. So a "snare-trap" or snare gate, was installed to prevent rubbish building up in the estuary itself, sometime in the 11th or 12thC. Snare-gate Street, was built to one end of this, and was elongated when enough silt had built up under the cliff, and its name had by then been shortened to Snargate (by the 14thC.). The Snar Gate was built as an extension to the old city walls (up to Cow Gate), and stood where the York Street roundabout now sits. (Source - my delvings into East Kent history over the years, part of which used the Babington Jones history of 1907, now out of print I think.....).

 

But I guess the telex code explanation for Snargate Radio is just as good. But why they chose that instead of, say, SRMarine Radio, or similar, especially when it was originally in Morse, I just don't know. Perhaps they did not expect the Nazis to know where Snargate was?

 

 

[Mike Storey]

12 hours ago, bécasse said:

I think that its origins lie with being a telegraphic address SNARGATE DOVER chosen to be distinctive (with a maximum of 8 letters) as with SUDESTIA LONDON for Victoria (continental). I suspect that both date back to the formation of the Management Committee, certainly both were in use before the Great War.

 

I remember the telex code SUDESTIA, even though we had to break into the Continental Ticket Office (the "Aquarium", with its strange turquoise tiling) to use the telex machine, as we were not allowed one of our own in our Nissen Hut, in the Info Office. It was used mainly to book seats and sleeper berths across Europe, but we sometimes had to send or receive telex's for customer service or some other emergency.

 

But I wonder where SNARGATE DOVER sent/received its telex's from in WW1, as the Lord Warden Hotel was not actually taken over in that war, although most of its "guests" were military, and it was actually closed in 1917 until hostilities ceased. There must have been somewhere else on or near to Snargate Street where this occurred, unless it was one of the best kept secrets ever. In WW2, the hotel was requisitioned, by the Navy, and was officially called HMS Wasp (which according to Lord Haw Haw, was sunk by a U-boat in the Channel!).

 

I note, in perhaps final, note OT to this subject, that the building has now been re-named Lord Warden offices, being home to many freight forwarders and some HMRC and Border Force activities too.

 

[Oldddudders]

On 05/07/2022 at 20:38, Mike Storey said:

I do recall we had to ring Snargate from Victoria, with the loadings of every boat train (as part of the job required one of us to go out to the gate of every departure and count passengers on), and they would ring us with the back loadings. Not that we did anything with that info, other than file it.

 

Did the info on inbound loadings not get passed to the IBO (Inwards Baggage Office) at Vic?

[SED Freightman]

10 hours ago, Mike Storey said:

 

But I wonder where SNARGATE DOVER sent/received its telex's from in WW1, as the Lord Warden Hotel was not actually taken over in that war, although most of its "guests" were military, and it was actually closed in 1917 until hostilities ceased. There must have been somewhere else on or near to Snargate Street where this occurred, unless it was one of the best kept secrets ever.

 

Perhaps the former Harbour Station, parts of which still remained in use by the Marine Dept / S&ISD in the early 1980's.

[Mike Storey]

6 hours ago, Oldddudders said:

Did the info on inbound loadings not get passed to the IBO (Inwards Baggage Office) at Vic?

 

What IBO? Never heard of it! It may have existed when the Golden Arrow was running, but that had ceased by the time I was there (75-77), with just the Night Ferry operation still going, so maybe that just opened in the early morning, if it still existed as such. But I think I recall seeing the baggage vans being unloaded and the contents deposited on tables along Platform 2, for people (or their chauffeurs) to collect. The only other baggage anyone would have been interested in, other than for the Night Ferry, was PLA (Passengers' Luggage in Advance) which I think, by then, was little used. Perhaps it was still open for that, but I never noticed it, and no-one, in three years, ever mentioned it!

 

[Fat Controller]

A former colleague used to work at Snargate. He'd been a deep-sea Radio Operator, then went to Sealink. Snargate dealt with Sealink's UK operations, mainly Irish Sea, but also Channel Islands and Harwich. The radio room was apparently designed in the style of an onboard one, making no concessions to it being situated in the middle of a roundabout.

With regard to WW1 operation; it's quite possible that they decamped to the labyrinthine cave network immediately behind the harbour.

[teeinox]

On 23/06/2022 at 14:45, Lyddrail said:

Simon,

I have found phase one of the electrification included Dover for OHL. I have also found a photo of Bulwark yard having OHL. But the 1970s pics I have seen show 3rd rail on the London end of Town Yard. But it is likely there was OHL at some stage.

I have diagrams of Ashford & Deal OHL from my time managing the Electrification drawing office at Ashford, couldn't find any others.

Photo (not mine) of a 71 on 3rd rail.

Cheers.

An interesting photo from Lyddrail in the light of the discussions about the timetable of onward services from Dover.

 

The locomotive appears to have the headcode “BA” which is, I think, for a train destined for the London Midland Region, via Tonbridge and the West London London line.  So, is this an incarnation of the “6M94 1652 via WIllesden, to Bescot conveyed traffic for BIFT, Ardwick, MIFT, Spekeland Road.” that Simon Lee has told us about?

 

To nail that down, it would be helpful to know when the photo was taken.  It must be after March 1968 because the locomotive bears a Class 71 number which, according to Simon Lilley’s book “Class 71/74 Locomotives”, became mandatory after that date.  And it must be before September 1976 when the whole of the class was withdrawn.  But an exact date would be nice.

 

The train formation is interesting, too.  First, an ordinary standard continental wagon, then a couple of refrigerated vans (Interfrigo?), followed by what might be a Transfesa (cannot be sure of the colour), and then some more refrigerated vans.  So, how extensive was the refrigerated van traffic, and was Interfrigo the only player?

 

teeinox

[hmrspaul]

1 hour ago, teeinox said:

An interesting photo from Lyddrail in the light of the discussions about the timetable of onward services from Dover.

 

The locomotive appears to have the headcode “BA” which is, I think, for a train destined for the London Midland Region, via Tonbridge and the West London London line.  So, is this an incarnation of the “6M94 1652 via WIllesden, to Bescot conveyed traffic for BIFT, Ardwick, MIFT, Spekeland Road.” that Simon Lee has told us about?

 

To nail that down, it would be helpful to know when the photo was taken.  It must be after March 1968 because the locomotive bears a Class 71 number which, according to Simon Lilley’s book “Class 71/74 Locomotives”, became mandatory after that date.  And it must be before September 1976 when the whole of the class was withdrawn.  But an exact date would be nice.

 

The train formation is interesting, too.  First, an ordinary standard continental wagon, then a couple of refrigerated vans (Interfrigo?), followed by what might be a Transfesa (cannot be sure of the colour), and then some more refrigerated vans.  So, how extensive was the refrigerated van traffic, and was Interfrigo the only player?

 

teeinox

The flat sided Polybulk were introduced in 1974. https://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/belgianpolybulk  and there were also some of the curve side Polybulks at the same time. 

 

It is a Transfesa 

 

Paul

[Mike Storey]

2 hours ago, teeinox said:

 

To nail that down, it would be helpful to know when the photo was taken.  It must be after March 1968 because the locomotive bears a Class 71 number which, according to Simon Lilley’s book “Class 71/74 Locomotives”, became mandatory after that date.  And it must be before September 1976 when the whole of the class was withdrawn.  But an exact date would be nice.

 

The train formation is interesting, too.  First, an ordinary standard continental wagon, then a couple of refrigerated vans (Interfrigo?), followed by what might be a Transfesa (cannot be sure of the colour), and then some more refrigerated vans.  So, how extensive was the refrigerated van traffic, and was Interfrigo the only player?

 

teeinox

 

Interfrigo vans were Italian built and owned, and did not start to appear on BR metals until around 1972/3 (after the first diagrams were constructed, which continued until 1977). That would appear to narrow down this photo to sometime between 1972 and 1976 - I would suggest more likely 73-75, because the 71's were less and less used by '75.

 

Several hundred of the Interfrigo vans were built, although I have no idea how many of them made it to the UK. I have a vague recollection that Transfesa supplied some refrigerated vans, but I believe these merely involved shoving a load of ice into the end compartments, rather than true electric refrigeration, as on the Interfrigos. Not sure why the Italians needed full refrigeration but the Spanish did not. Does anyone know?

 

 

 

[bécasse]

2 hours ago, teeinox said:

To nail that down, it would be helpful to know when the photo was taken.  It must be after March 1968 because the locomotive bears a Class 71 number which, according to Simon Lilley’s book “Class 71/74 Locomotives”, became mandatory after that date.  And it must be before September 1976 when the whole of the class was withdrawn.  But an exact date would be nice.

 

On the Southern Region, at least, TOPS loco numbers were applied en mass during December 1973 and January and February 1974. The locos would have borne their E50xx numbers until then (or E61xx for those rebuilt as EDs).

[SED Freightman]

On 08/07/2022 at 21:42, Mike Storey said:

 

I have a vague recollection that Transfesa supplied some refrigerated vans, but I believe these merely involved shoving a load of ice into the end compartments, rather than true electric refrigeration, as on the Interfrigos. Not sure why the Italians needed full refrigeration but the Spanish did not. Does anyone know?

I have a company brochure issued by Transportes Ferroviarios Especiales SA (TRANSFESA) which dates from approx 1978/9, this depicts two types of  2-axle refrigerated wagon available for international traffic.  Firstly, an older type that appears much like the second wagon in Lyddrail's photo, this is Italian registered with Interfrigo livery and is stated to be equipped with the Marelli refrigeration system producing a minimum temperature of 3C. Secondly a more modern looking wagon in Transfesa livery, stated to be equipped with a system of refrigeration by liquid nitrogen producing a minimum temperature of -25C.

[Mike Storey]

51 minutes ago, SED Freightman said:

I have a company brochure issued by Transportes Ferroviarios Especiales SA (TRANSFESA) which dates from approx 1978/9, this depicts two types of  2-axle refrigerated wagon available for international traffic.  Firstly, an older type that appears much like the second wagon in Lyddrail's photo, this is Italian registered with Interfrigo livery and is stated to be equipped with the Marelli refrigeration system producing a minimum temperature of 3C. Secondly a more modern looking wagon in Transfesa livery, stated to be equipped with a system of refrigeration by liquid nitrogen producing a minimum temperature of -25C.

 

Very interesting, thanks. I had no idea Transfesa made wagons for Interfrigo! I wonder what and where the latter wagons were used for?

 

[Nearholmer]

On 08/07/2022 at 21:42, Mike Storey said:

Interfrigo vans were Italian built and owned, and did not start to appear on BR metals until around 1972/3

Well, yes, those ones, but there was a pre-WW2 generation too, which I think featured in an article in ‘Railway Wonders of the World’.