Lokpilot Basic 1.0 & NCE PowerCab Incompatible?

[ISW]

I recently purchased a secondhand Bachmann Class 108 2-Car DMU (model 32-904DC), that was DCC fitted, from Rails of Sheffield. It came with both Cars set to the default ID of 003.

 

I used DecoderPro (connected through my NCE PowerCab) to re-programme the Power Car without any issues. However, when it came to the Trailer Car I had all manner of problems. Firstly, DecoderPro could not recognise the decoder at all. Then I tried to use the NCE PowerCab directly with programme on the Program Track, but it could not read any CVs at all. But the decoder is working, because the headlights worked, and changed direction upon command from the PowerCab.

 

I did make sure the wheels were clean and that the contacts between the bogie and the body were good and clean. I even tested continuity between the wheels and the decoder socket to make sure that was okay, which it was.

 

Flummoxed I dropped by a Rails to see if they could re-programme the Trailer Car. They used a Gaugemaster controller on their programming track and had no problems at all reading / writing the decoder. They set the decoder to the ID I wanted.

 

What going on? The Lokpilot Basic 1.0 decoder installed in both Cars (I determined the type based on photos of the decoder on t'internet) is readable in the Power Car on my PowerCab but not the Trailer Car. But the Trailer Car is readable to a Gaugemaster controller.

 

If I was to guess, I'd say it has something to do with the Trailer Car decoder not have a motor connected across it. But why is it readable by a Gaugemaster and not a PowerCab, and is there anything I can do to make it readable on my PowerCab?

 

Ian

 

[beejack]

you are correct it's due to the trailer car having no motor, neither the power cab or decoder pro will read the chip if you put the tailer car on the track alone.

 

For DMU's I normally program both cars together or use a decoder tester to program the chips seperately.  

 

 

[Bob83a]

This model 32-904DC was supplied with “Bachmann” decoders 36-553 (8 pin) or 36-554 (21 pin) I believe. But as you found they were just rebadged LokPilot Basic 1.0. But Bachmann may have made changes to the firmware, which may include the manufacturer code.

 

The problem that you have reading the decoder in the trailer car is because the is no motor installed. You can get around this by installing a resistor on the motor terminals, but do not leave it installed for normal use. Other ways of programming the trailer is to put both cars on the programming track an change both at the same time, hopefully doing this the changes will get written to both. You need to make changes based on the trailer car. Then you take the trailer off and make changes to just the motor car.

Another  way is to program the motor car with the trailer car settings, swap the decoder with the trailer and then program the motor car.

 

My preferred way of doing the programming is to take the decoder out of the trailer car and mount it in a decoder tester which has a motor on board, and then put the decoder back in the trailer.

 

Edited May 5, 2022 by Bob83a
Spelling and typo’s

[Pete the Elaner]

Wow. 2 replies within an hour & I agree with both.

 

It is often said that no question is silly. It is sillier not to ask it.

[ISW]

10 hours ago, beejack said:

you are correct it's due to the trailer car having no motor, neither the power cab or decoder pro will read the chip if you put the tailer car on the track alone.

 

10 hours ago, Bob83a said:

The problem that you have reading the decoder in the trailer car is because the is no motor installed. You can get around this by installing a resistor on the motor terminals, but do not leave it installed for normal use. Other ways of programming the trailer is to put both cars on the programming track an change both at the same time, hopefully doing this the changes will get written to both.

 

10 hours ago, Pete the Elaner said:

Wow. 2 replies within an hour & I agree with both.

 

Thanks for the prompt responses. 

 

Which all still begs the question of how did Rails re-program the Trailer Car decoder in their shop using a Gaugemaster controller? I watched him do it and he only had the Trailer Car on the track at the time. Is this a 'feature' of the Gaugemaster Controller, or has something been added to the test track?

 

Ian

[Pete the Elaner]

1 hour ago, ISW said:

 

 

 

Thanks for the prompt responses. 

 

Which all still begs the question of how did Rails re-program the Trailer Car decoder in their shop using a Gaugemaster controller? I watched him do it and he only had the Trailer Car on the track at the time. Is this a 'feature' of the Gaugemaster Controller, or has something been added to the test track?

 

Ian

 

There is nothing special in this regard about the Gaugemaster.

You don't need a load across the decoder to write CVs, only to read them. Setting the address is a change for which you do not need to know the original value.

[ISW]

17 minutes ago, Pete the Elaner said:

 

There is nothing special in this regard about the Gaugemaster.

You don't need a load across the decoder to write CVs, only to read them. Setting the address is a change for which you do not need to know the original value.

 

But if the PowerCab (& DecoderPro) can't even 'read' (or recognise) the decoder, how can it 'write' a change or know if the 'write' has been successful?

 

Ian

[Nigelcliffe]

25 minutes ago, ISW said:

 

But if the PowerCab (& DecoderPro) can't even 'read' (or recognise) the decoder, how can it 'write' a change or know if the 'write' has been successful?

 

 

It doesn't know.    The "write" goes out to the track, and there's no guarantee of any handshake to confirm things.      
Some systems will do a read to confirm (but that slows things down).  Some systems will listen to see if there is a confirmatory pulse and treat that as a "confirm", and they might report the lack of a pulse as an error.       

 

 

DecoderPro only does what your DCC system does.  It is just a very clever way of pressing the "read/write" commands in your DCC system really quickly and keeping a record of what happens.  That's all it can do.    

 

The PowerCab's default menu of commands for programming does a "read" before offering the user the option of changing the value with a subsequent write.  

 

 

 

 

- Nigel

[Matt C]

Not sure if I can explain it but I'll try you have what I'll call an operating command and a programming command.

An operating command is normally used on the main track so your controller says to loco number 1 'Move' Loco number one is sat on the track drawing power through the chip and 'Listening' to the commands (electrical pulses) being sent out, hears a command addressed to it (loco no 1) and Moves.

 

Now loco number 1 is on the programming track drawing power through the chip and the Controller says

 "change CV1 from '1' to '2' did you do that ?"  The chip in loco 1 changes CV1 from '1' to '2' and pulses to say yes I've done that.

 

Now you put the dummy car on and again the controller says " change cv1 from '1' to '2' did you do that ?"  The dummy car chip recieves the electrical pulses which changes the CV but it has no moter so it cant pulse back a reply. As the chip cant reply to the controller's quiry "did you do that?" The controller cant tell you whether it was succsefull or not it cant 'Read the CV's"

 

Probably clear as mud but hopevit helps 🤪

 

 

[Pete the Elaner]

Like you, I use Decoder Pro, but I only read CVs once.

 

Before I install my decoder, I place it in a tester to read the CVs into Decoder Pro. After that, I know what they are so as long as I only ever program them with Decoder Pro, I know what they are before I change them.

This does mean that I need a computer connected & running to make any changes, but it was there anyway, so it is not a problem for me.

& also back up your DecoderPro files because it takes time to re-create them by reading them in again.

[ISW]

1 hour ago, Matt C said:

Probably clear as mud but hopevit helps 🤪

 

That's seems clear to me, thanks. 

 

So, at a guess, Rails used their Gaugemaster to 'command' the change of ID (by writing CVs), and then verified the change by Selecting the new ID on the controller to see if it worked (which it did).

 

Ian

[ISW]

1 hour ago, Pete the Elaner said:

Before I install my decoder, I place it in a tester to read the CVs into Decoder Pro.

Pete,

 

Can you provide some details of the 'tester' you are using. Might be worthy of a purchase?

 

Ian

[Nigelcliffe]

11 minutes ago, ISW said:

Pete,

 

Can you provide some details of the 'tester' you are using. Might be worthy of a purchase?

 

Ian

 

There are several around.  The ESU one may be the most common.  Consists of a motor, a few LEDs, lots of different decoder connection sockets.   Thus most decoder types can be plugged in and "tested".  

 

Whether its worth owning depends on how many decoder installations you do, and how "non-standard" they might be.    If you do buy one, make sure it covers the newer decoder socket types such as Next18 and PluX, as well as the older sockets.   

 

 

- Nigel

[pauliebanger]

And, maybe, that it can be configured so that both 'Logic Level' and 'Full Power' Function Outputs can be tested on 21 pin decoders.,

 

Paul

[Pete the Elaner]

I started with (& still have) a MERG kit. I think it cost me about £1.50, but it only has an 8 pin socket.

I recently bought an ESU one because it has other sockets on it too.

[ISW]

1 hour ago, Pete the Elaner said:

I started with (& still have) a MERG kit. I think it cost me about £1.50, but it only has an 8 pin socket.

I recently bought an ESU one because it has other sockets on it too.

Pete,

 

And here was me thinking it was a 'complicated' bit of kit! Based on information gleaned herein, for my 8-pin decoders I think I can 'knock one up' on a breadboard (or even build one on some veroboard) ...

 

Ian