Transit of specialised wagonload freight between pre-grouping railway companies before 1916

[Morello Cherry]

@Compound2632 here is a photo of Afon Wen. (BTW in 1895 there was a Whitchurch to Bangor train via Afon Wen). Do you reckon that these sidings indicate that there was sufficient exchange traffic between the Cambrian and LNWR?

 

http://disused-stations.org.uk/a/afon_wen/afonwen(hcc7.1941)old9.jpg

[Compound2632]

12 minutes ago, Morello Cherry said:

@Compound2632 here is a photo of Afon Wen. (BTW in 1895 there was a Whitchurch to Bangor train via Afon Wen). Do you reckon that these sidings indicate that there was sufficient exchange traffic between the Cambrian and LNWR?

 

http://disused-stations.org.uk/a/afon_wen/afonwen(hcc7.1941)old9.jpg

 

Yes, those sidings on the right have the look of being exchange sidings.

 

But I'm assuming my Cambrian wagons are being routed via Welshpool. I've been reading Molly Hughes, A London Girl of the 1880s. Her fiance's father, Robert Hughes, had been manager of the Aberllefenni quarries in the 1870/80s, so although my modelling is set a quarter of a century later, my slate is coming from there by way of the Corris Railway, with transhipment into the Cambrian wagons at Machynlleth. 

[Morello Cherry]

Makes sense, my guess is that those that were exchanged at Minffordd must have gone via Afon Wen because it doesn't really make sense to send them down the coast and all the way across. (But alternatively, why would you go BF-Minffordd-Afon Wen, when you could access the North Wales coast line direct from BF).

 

Thinking about it, I don't think I can recall ever seeing photographs of slate being transported on standard gauge wagons other than transporters.

Edited August 26, 2022 by Morello Cherry

[Compound2632]

10 minutes ago, Morello Cherry said:

Thinking about it, I don't think I can recall ever seeing photographs of slate being transported on standard gauge wagons other than transporters.

 

There's a topic on this somewhere...

[Fat Controller]

2 hours ago, Morello Cherry said:

Makes sense, my guess is that those that were exchanged at Minffordd must have gone via Afon Wen because it doesn't really make sense to send them down the coast and all the way across. (But alternatively, why would you go BF-Minffordd-Afon Wen, when you could access the North Wales coast line direct from BF).

 

Thinking about it, I don't think I can recall ever seeing photographs of slate being transported on standard gauge wagons other than transporters.

I've seen photos of 13t Shock wagons being loaded; I think it was at Tywyn Wharf

[Compound2632]

12 minutes ago, Fat Controller said:

I've seen photos of 13t Shock wagons being loaded; I think it was at Tywyn Wharf

 

Alas not an option for c. 1902!

[41516]

59 minutes ago, Fat Controller said:

I've seen photos of 13t Shock wagons being loaded; I think it was at Tywyn Wharf

 

Port Dinorwic

 

R0608.  Port Dinorwig. June, 1961. by Ron Fisher, on Flickr

[Morello Cherry]

I thought I'd have a look on the Ffestiniog I-base and  I found these - they range from 1913 to the 1950s

 

Transporter - 1927 http://217.34.233.120:8086/view-item?i=1803&WINID=1661512296080#.YwisM4TRY2x

 

1950s wagons -

http://217.34.233.120:8086/index.php?a=ViewItem&key=SXsiTiI6ODksIlAiOnsidmFsdWUiOiJnd3IiLCJvcGVyYXRvciI6IjEiLCJmdXp6eVByZWZpeExlbmd0aCI6IjMiLCJmdXp6eU1pblNpbWlsYXJpdHkiOjAuNSwibWF4U3VnZ2VzdGlvbnMiOiI1IiwiYWx3YXlzU3VnZ2VzdCI6bnVsbH19&pg=56&WINID=1661512296080#csMPpDs_WkkAAAGC2QAMbA/1850

 

1913 -

http://217.34.233.120:8086/index.php?a=ViewItem&key=SXsiTiI6ODksIlAiOnsidmFsdWUiOiJnd3IiLCJvcGVyYXRvciI6IjEiLCJmdXp6eVByZWZpeExlbmd0aCI6IjMiLCJmdXp6eU1pblNpbWlsYXJpdHkiOjAuNSwibWF4U3VnZ2VzdGlvbnMiOiI1IiwiYWx3YXlzU3VnZ2VzdCI6bnVsbH19&pg=59&WINID=1661512296080#csMPpDs_WkkAAAGC2QAMbA/1446

 

1920 - Minffordd

http://217.34.233.120:8086/index.php?a=ViewItem&key=SXsiTiI6ODksIlAiOnsidmFsdWUiOiJnd3IiLCJvcGVyYXRvciI6IjEiLCJmdXp6eVByZWZpeExlbmd0aCI6IjMiLCJmdXp6eU1pblNpbWlsYXJpdHkiOjAuNSwibWF4U3VnZ2VzdGlvbnMiOiI1IiwiYWx3YXlzU3VnZ2VzdCI6bnVsbH19&pg=72&WINID=1661512296080#csMPpDs_WkkAAAGC2QAMbA/643

 

Minffordd 1936

http://217.34.233.120:8086/index.php?a=ViewItem&key=SXsiTiI6ODksIlAiOnsidmFsdWUiOiJnd3IiLCJvcGVyYXRvciI6IjEiLCJmdXp6eVByZWZpeExlbmd0aCI6IjMiLCJmdXp6eU1pblNpbWlsYXJpdHkiOjAuNSwibWF4U3VnZ2VzdGlvbnMiOiI1IiwiYWx3YXlzU3VnZ2VzdCI6bnVsbH19&pg=78&WINID=1661512296080#csMPpDs_WkkAAAGC2QAMbA/669

 

Minffordd 1930

 

http://217.34.233.120:8086/index.php?a=ViewItem&key=SXsiTiI6ODksIlAiOnsidmFsdWUiOiJnd3IiLCJvcGVyYXRvciI6IjEiLCJmdXp6eVByZWZpeExlbmd0aCI6IjMiLCJmdXp6eU1pblNpbWlsYXJpdHkiOjAuNSwibWF4U3VnZ2VzdGlvbnMiOiI1IiwiYWx3YXlzU3VnZ2VzdCI6bnVsbH19&pg=88&WINID=1661512296080#csMPpDs_WkkAAAGC2QAMbA/668

 

 

 

 

 

Edited August 26, 2022 by Morello Cherry

[Compound2632]

Yes, a shock wagon was evidently an ideal wagon for slate traffic - shame it wasn't invented earlier! I gather that the Cambrian 2-plank wagons used for slate traffic had blocks fitted between the buffer guides and headstocks, presumably to increase the distance from headstock to buffer face, reducing the amount of slack in the three-link couplings and hence the shock experienced when a loose-coupled goods train buffered up. (They must have been fitted with buffers with longer than standard rams, too.) Straw packing was also the order of the day, I believe.

[Compound2632]

4 minutes ago, Morello Cherry said:

I thought I'd have a look on the Ffestiniog I-base and  I found these - they range from 1913 to the 1950s

 

Very interesting.

 

The third photo may possibly illustrate the modification to Cambrian 2-plank wagons mentioned in my previous post, in which case it's very useful for illustrating the lack of a general repaint! if that's your 1913 photo, it also suggests the modification was not done as early as c. 1902 - bother!

 

The last photo is another instance of a G&SW dropside wagon in LMS days with very fresh-looking G&SW lettering!

 

[62613]

On 23/08/2022 at 10:34, sulzer27jd said:

It is also not just the fact that you have foreign vehicles, it's the type of vehicle as well. A product being sent from a manufacturer to a customer would require transport and that could in theory lead to any railway's wagon being anywhere on the network. However there would need to be a justifiable (economic) reason why for an example a foundry casting from one end of the UK would need to pass many other, far more local foundries on its way to the customer. Of course there were reasons why a wagon or van might end up a long way from home but as modellers we should probably accept that there needs to be some kind of justification for it.

 

John

Before pooling, there wouldn't be any back loading of foreign wagons, would there? Say a consignment of engine parts was being sent from say, North Eastern Marine on Tyneside to Silley Cox in Falmouth; the load would surely go in a NE wagon of some sort, if it went by rail, and the NE wagon would have to be sent back empty to  the nearest point on the NE system when unloaded.  Am I correct, even with this poor example?

 

[41516]

If only because a best friend from school now lives in Talysarn (to the left of the Chapel seen in the first photo), I'm going to add the transhipment sidings at Nantlle between the tramway and the LNWR station.  Very modelable I've always thought (but not found many good pre-grouping photos).

 

 

 

[Morello Cherry]

A few additions

 

LNWR in BF from 1910

 

http://217.34.233.120:8086/index.php?a=ViewItem&key=SXsiTiI6MTAyLCJQIjp7InZhbHVlIjoibG53ciIsIm9wZXJhdG9yIjoiMSIsImZ1enp5UHJlZml4TGVuZ3RoIjoiMyIsImZ1enp5TWluU2ltaWxhcml0eSI6MC41LCJtYXhTdWdnZXN0aW9ucyI6IjUiLCJhbHdheXNTdWdnZXN0IjpudWxsfX0&pg=8&WINID=1661513493216#csMPpDs_WkkAAAGC2QAMbA/1600

 

LNWR in BF from 1887 http://217.34.233.120:8086/index.php?a=ViewItem&key=SXsiTiI6MTAyLCJQIjp7InZhbHVlIjoibG53ciIsIm9wZXJhdG9yIjoiMSIsImZ1enp5UHJlZml4TGVuZ3RoIjoiMyIsImZ1enp5TWluU2ltaWxhcml0eSI6MC41LCJtYXhTdWdnZXN0aW9ucyI6IjUiLCJhbHdheXNTdWdnZXN0IjpudWxsfX0&pg=10&WINID=1661513493216#csMPpDs_WkkAAAGC2QAMbA/2664

 

LNWR in BF 1920  http://217.34.233.120:8086/index.php?a=ViewItem&key=SXsiTiI6MTAyLCJQIjp7InZhbHVlIjoibG53ciIsIm9wZXJhdG9yIjoiMSIsImZ1enp5UHJlZml4TGVuZ3RoIjoiMyIsImZ1enp5TWluU2ltaWxhcml0eSI6MC41LCJtYXhTdWdnZXN0aW9ucyI6IjUiLCJhbHdheXNTdWdnZXN0IjpudWxsfX0&pg=24&WINID=1661513493216#csMPpDs_WkkAAAGC2QAMbA/1603

 

Undated - http://217.34.233.120:8086/index.php?a=ViewItem&key=SXsiTiI6MTAyLCJQIjp7InZhbHVlIjoibG53ciIsIm9wZXJhdG9yIjoiMSIsImZ1enp5UHJlZml4TGVuZ3RoIjoiMyIsImZ1enp5TWluU2ltaWxhcml0eSI6MC41LCJtYXhTdWdnZXN0aW9ucyI6IjUiLCJhbHdheXNTdWdnZXN0IjpudWxsfX0&pg=35&WINID=1661513493216#csMPpDs_WkkAAAGC2QAMbA/1783

 

Loading in 1956 - http://217.34.233.120:8086/index.php?a=ViewItem&key=SXsiTiI6MTAyLCJQIjp7InZhbHVlIjoibG53ciIsIm9wZXJhdG9yIjoiMSIsImZ1enp5UHJlZml4TGVuZ3RoIjoiMyIsImZ1enp5TWluU2ltaWxhcml0eSI6MC41LCJtYXhTdWdnZXN0aW9ucyI6IjUiLCJhbHdheXNTdWdnZXN0IjpudWxsfX0&pg=36&WINID=1661513493216#csMPpDs_WkkAAAGC2QAMbA/1793

 

1910 - http://217.34.233.120:8086/index.php?a=ViewItem&key=SXsiTiI6MTAyLCJQIjp7InZhbHVlIjoibG53ciIsIm9wZXJhdG9yIjoiMSIsImZ1enp5UHJlZml4TGVuZ3RoIjoiMyIsImZ1enp5TWluU2ltaWxhcml0eSI6MC41LCJtYXhTdWdnZXN0aW9ucyI6IjUiLCJhbHdheXNTdWdnZXN0IjpudWxsfX0&pg=100&WINID=1661513493216#csMPpDs_WkkAAAGC2QAMbA/1800

 

1881 - coal wagons rather than slate but included anyway

 

http://217.34.233.120:8086/index.php?a=ViewItem&key=SXsiTiI6MTAyLCJQIjp7InZhbHVlIjoibG53ciIsIm9wZXJhdG9yIjoiMSIsImZ1enp5UHJlZml4TGVuZ3RoIjoiMyIsImZ1enp5TWluU2ltaWxhcml0eSI6MC41LCJtYXhTdWdnZXN0aW9ucyI6IjUiLCJhbHdheXNTdWdnZXN0IjpudWxsfX0&pg=71&WINID=1661513493216#csMPpDs_WkkAAAGC2QAMbA/2629

[Compound2632]

2 minutes ago, Morello Cherry said:

A few additions

 

A splendid selection. Frustratingly, in none of these can one see clearly how the slate is stacked in the wagons!

[Compound2632]

11 minutes ago, 62613 said:

Before pooling, there wouldn't be any back loading of foreign wagons, would there? Say a consignment of engine parts was being sent from say, North Eastern Marine on Tyneside to Silley Cox in Falmouth; the load would surely go in a NE wagon of some sort, if it went by rail, and the NE wagon would have to be sent back empty to  the nearest point on the NE system when unloaded.  Am I correct, even with this poor example?

 

 

The Midland Railway Study Centre catalogue lists a number of Goods Manager's Circulars that are concerned with back-loading of wagons to the North Eastern, and to the southern Scottish companies. Here's my transcription of one:

 

MRSC 17766

Goods Manager’s Circular No. 2,205, June 16th 1904

 

Foreign Companies’ Goods Wagons and Vans.

 

The instruction contained in my circular 2,181, December 8th 1903 [No copy in MRSC], may now be modified as follows: –

 

Midland vehicles must be used for all mileage earning loads to Foreign lines, and Foreign Wagons and Vans be unloaded promptly, and returned home empty, with the following exceptions: –

 

Those belonging to the Companies included in my Circulars W23/564,697 April 14th 1903 [No copy in MRSC] and 2,178, November 28th 1903 [MRSC 17764] may still be used for light loads, and must be dealt with as therein instructed. Other Company’s stock may also be utilized for loads of less than one ton, and be loaded to the Junction, if a transhipping point, or to the tranship Station on the parent line nearest to the Junction.

 

All Scotch Companies’ wagons may be used for loads to parent lines.

 

Local use of G.&S.W. and N.B. wagons:

 

G.&S.W. and N.B. wagons, discharged at London stations, not required for loading to Scotland, must, whenever possible, be used to Local Stations, Leicester to Carlisle, or to Bradford. Other Stations, Sheffield and South and West thereof must load only to Leeds, Bradford or Carlisle. Leeds and Bradford must load to Carlisle.

 

N.E., L.&Y., and G.C. wagons, when received direct from parent lines at Derby, and Stations South and West thereof, if discharged on date of arrival, or following day, may be loaded locally with C. & D. traffic only.

 

Foreign wagons must not be loaded to Burton.

 

All concerned must make themselves thoroughly acquainted with the card of instructions dated June, 1904, respecting the loading of Foreign stock, and the prevention of Mileage and Demurrage charges, it being understood that those are standing arrangements, and not cancelled by anything contained in this Circular.

 

Please acknowledge receipt.

 

Yours truly,

W.E. ADIE

Goods Manager

 

 

[bécasse]

22 minutes ago, 62613 said:

Before pooling, there wouldn't be any back loading of foreign wagons, would there? Say a consignment of engine parts was being sent from say, North Eastern Marine on Tyneside to Silley Cox in Falmouth; the load would surely go in a NE wagon of some sort, if it went by rail, and the NE wagon would have to be sent back empty to  the nearest point on the NE system when unloaded.  Am I correct, even with this poor example?

 

Correct, 99,9% of the time. The wagon could though be used for a back load in the (generally) unlikely event of a suitable one being available at the right moment.

[41516]

3 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

Foreign wagons must not be loaded to Burton.

 

Very interesting.  

 

Edit - to expand that comment, I would presume as a measure to stop wagons disappearing into brewery internal usage for a period of time and thus costing the Midland demurrage charges for late returns?

 

And by brewery, I heavily imply Bass by sheer volume of traffic per day (at the height, approx 1000 wagons per day, split approx 1/3 incoming empties, 1/3 outgoing casks & 1/3 internal traffic (casks to washers, movement to ale stores etc).

 

 

Edited August 26, 2022 by 41516

[sulzer27jd]

5 hours ago, 62613 said:

Before pooling, there wouldn't be any back loading of foreign wagons, would there? Say a consignment of engine parts was being sent from say, North Eastern Marine on Tyneside to Silley Cox in Falmouth; the load would surely go in a NE wagon of some sort, if it went by rail, and the NE wagon would have to be sent back empty to  the nearest point on the NE system when unloaded.  Am I correct, even with this poor example?

 

Yes, with a couple of caveats I suppose. If sent back to the NE it would generally return via the same route to the nearest point. The other thing is that the transport costs would be part of the contract between the (in this case) manufacturer and the purchaser. If the purchaser had either a preferred carrier or access to their own vehicles then they may sent the empty to collect the goods, in which case the empty journey would be on the way out and not on the way back.

 

Many companies had sales agents and offices in foreign towns and cities for the purpose of generating business.