White painted rims on the wheels of PO wagons - how prevelant?

[Compound2632]

1 minute ago, 33C said:

The Bradwell Wood wagon is fitted with "Greedy boards". When weighing, I assume these were for less dense loads, otherwise the weight would exceed the designated load limit? 

 

Bradwell Wood, aka the Staffordshire Chemical Company (diamond SCC logo on the door), had a lot of coking ovens. Coke is considerably less dense than coal, hence the side extensions. There is another photo roughly contemporary with this showing a Bradwell Wood wagon on a tippler at Poplar Docks, so they evidently had an export business. There are a number of NSR wagons in this train at Wellingborough, along with Midland wagons carrying (empty) beer casks, so I believe the train is from Cricklewood to Burton via Leicester.

 

6 minutes ago, 33C said:

Also, the slots cut in the sides of 16 ton minerals were, I again assume, to prevent overloading? (Wet Ash?) The Hornby 21 ton, black, "N.C.B.", wagon had them painted/tampo printed in white?

  

Out of my period of specialist knowledge but my understanding was that those slots were to enable staff to see if the wagon was loaded (and with what) or empty, the sides being so high.

[magmouse]

1 hour ago, 33C said:

Also, the slots cut in the sides of 16 ton minerals were, I again assume, to prevent overloading?

 

Again, not really my period, so we may need comment from others, but my understanding is that, as coal traffic reduced, coal wagons were adapted for other uses such as iron ore. These denser loads meant it was possible to overload the wagons if completely filled, so the holes were cut to create a maximum load level that was within the weight capacity.

 

Nick.

[magmouse]

1 hour ago, Compound2632 said:

This photograph is relevant to both the discussions here:

 

 

Copy Pit, undated, but from the big L&Y van after 190x (need to check Coates' Lancashire & Yorkshire Wagons) [Disused Stations]. 

 

It appears that there are three freshly-painted Towneley Colliery wagons here, with a high gloss finish that makes them look very dark. The L&Y van started life a mid grey and has perhaps darkened with age. The simplest assumption has to be that Towneley Colliery No. 38 is painted the same colour as its neighbours but has lost its glossy shine, so looks less dark. (The easiest assumption is that the livery is black with white letters shaded red - note the positioning of the lettering on each plank and, I think, a hint of the red shading - but it could be red with black shading, the black paint reflecting light differently to the red.)

 

All the Towneley wagons, including No. 38, have white-painted tyres. 

 

The wagons either side of No. 38 have self-contained buffers, which leads me to suspect that they are newly back from being converted from dumb buffers; the colliery has bought some new 1907 RCH specification 10 or 12-tonners at the same time. Has No. 38 got self-contained buffers too?

 

My main point here is that an understanding of the initial gloss finish of wagon paintwork is important for interpreting wagon livery in photographs, rather than for modelling per se. This has a bearing on the notorious Great Western wagon red/grey debate, as in this pair of photos at Cinderford, early 1890s, originally posted by @MikeOxon

 

 

 

 

This is the only one known to me. One has to make the assumption that as a random sample of one, it is typical.

 

Thanks, Stephen - good detective work as always! It's interesting we are starting to get some evidence for white rims as standard, not just as photographic bling.

 

And when I say 'we', I of course mean 'you'.

 

Nick.

 

[Compound2632]

2 minutes ago, magmouse said:

It's interesting we are starting to get some evidence for white rims as standard, not just as photographic bling.

 

I'd be very reluctant to say standard. Occasional at best.

[magmouse]

3 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

I'd be very reluctant to say standard. Occasional at best.

 

Sorry - poor phrasing on my part. I meant that we have some evidence that sometimes white rims were applied to wagons as part of their normal paint finish, rather than white rims only being applied for photographic purposes. I would agree white rims were still relatively rare, or we would see much more evidence for them in general photos of PO wagons.

 

Nick.

[Caley Jim]

9 hours ago, 33C said:

The Bradwell Wood wagon is fitted with "Greedy boards". When weighing, I assume these were for less dense loads, otherwise the weight would exceed the designated load limit? 

On the CR these were called 'raves' and were, as you say, fitted to wagons designated for coke traffic, and were so lettered on the top rave.  A standard CR 8T mineral wagon did not have the capacity to hold 8tons of coal, but would hold 8tons of denser minerals, e.g. iron ore.

 

Similar raves were often fitted to open merchandise wagons to allow them to be used for sheep when the demand for that was high.

 

9 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

This is the only one known to me. One has to make the assumption that as a random sample of one, it is typical.

Regarding company specifications for white rims, I would refer parishioners to my post on page 1 here (22 May 2022) referring to Mike Williams' book on CR wagons :-

 

 

'The book also quotes an R Y Pickering card order for CR wagons which states inter alia :-

 

Wheels and ironwork one coat lamp black with a little japan added.  Wheel tyres and numberplate letters white.  This would imply that white tyres were a company specification.'

 

Jim

[WFPettigrew]

13 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

pair of photos at Cinderford, early 1890s,

Sorry off topic, and not sure where this photo had previously popped up. 

 

But - is that pig iron being loaded?

 

Cos if so, thems big pigs!?!  Certainly compared to photos of pig iron at Barrow ironworks say, or that photo which was also somewhere on here of the workers manhandling pig iron into/out of a Caley pig iron wagon, I would have thought? 

 

And if not, what might it be?

 

All the best

 

Neil 

[Compound2632]

Just now, WFPettigrew said:

But - is that pig iron being loaded?

 

Cos if so, thems big pigs!?!  Certainly compared to photos of pig iron at Barrow ironworks say, or that photo which was also somewhere on here of the workers manhandling pig iron into/out of a Caley pig iron wagon, I would have thought? 

 

Pigs it is. About 4 ft long? I'm still trying to work out how to make convincing pigs.

 

[magmouse]

5 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

Not pig iron, but an iron pig. Nice.

 

More substantively, could you make pigs the authentic way, casting them in resin in a plasticine mould? Make one in plastic or metal, mount it on a cocktail stick, roll out some plasticine, stamp the master into it, cut the runners in with a scalpel, and pour some resin.

 

I think the engineering works in Netherport may need a a supply, if it has a small foundry. From South Wales or the Midlands?

 

Nick.

[Compound2632]

2 minutes ago, magmouse said:

I think the engineering works in Netherport may need a a supply, if it has a small foundry. From South Wales or the Midlands?

 

Or Westbury?

[magmouse]

2 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

Or Westbury?

 

Thank you for that - I hadn't realised there was an iron works there, though it makes sense with the nearby Somerset coal field and iron workings. It doesn't however, provide an excuse for an interesting wagon or two from one of the South Wales lines, or MR or LNWR...

 

Nick.

[billbedford]

13 hours ago, 33C said:

Also, the slots cut in the sides of 16 ton minerals were, I again assume, to prevent overloading? (Wet Ash?)

 

Yes, scrap steel.  As I understand. 

[Caley Jim]

56 minutes ago, WFPettigrew said:

But - is that pig iron being loaded?

Cos if so, thems big pigs!?!  Certainly compared to photos of pig iron at Barrow ironworks say, or that photo which was also somewhere on here of the workers manhandling pig iron into/out of a Caley pig iron wagon, I would have thought? 

It certainly looks like pig iron, but the ones in the wagons look shorter.  I suppose a good whack with a sledgehammer might be all that was needed to break them in two.

54 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

Pigs it is. About 4 ft long? I'm still trying to work out how to make convincing pigs.

In 2mm I cut lengths of 30thou square styrene rod, arranged them in a metal tray the same size as the wagon and flooded them with solvent.  I then sprayed them with rattle can grey and dry brushed 'rust' over them before gluing them into the wagons.

 

(apologies for the c**p lettering!)

Jim

Edited April 4, 2023 by Caley Jim
Add apology

[Compound2632]

I had been thinking of bits of plastic sprue, filed or sanded flat on one side, but most sprue is too large diameter for 4 mm scale pig iron.

[magmouse]

15 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

I had been thinking of bits of plastic sprue, filed or sanded flat on one side, but most sprue is too large diameter for 4 mm scale pig iron.

 

File the sprue to shape and then stitch it over a heat source? Always used to work for producing fine plastic rod, but it might be hard to stop the stretch at the right point.

[Caley Jim]

60 thou square styrene strip? Nick it with a craft knife and break rather than cut and that will give you the 'broken ends' effect. You could 'distress' the strip first be scraping with a craft knife. 

 

Jim 

[kevinlms]

On 04/04/2023 at 19:59, magmouse said:

 

Sorry - poor phrasing on my part. I meant that we have some evidence that sometimes white rims were applied to wagons as part of their normal paint finish, rather than white rims only being applied for photographic purposes. I would agree white rims were still relatively rare, or we would see much more evidence for them in general photos of PO wagons.

 

Nick.

Most photos of white rimmed tyres, seem to belong to private owner wagons. Since these were almost invariably built by private builders, did they just paint the rims as standard, before releasing to traffic? It was then up to the owners to maintain the white rims, or to ignore them.

Most did the latter and didn't bother.

[kevinlms]

15 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

 

Pigs it is. About 4 ft long? I'm still trying to work out how to make convincing pigs.

 

No wonder model figures and animals, always have a thick moulded base!

[magmouse]

1 minute ago, kevinlms said:

Most photos of white rimmed tyres, seem to belong to private owner wagons. Since these were almost invariably built by private builders, did they just paint the rims as standard, before releasing to traffic? It was then up to the owners to maintain the white rims, or to ignore them.

Most did the latter and didn't bother.

A lot of PO wagons were hired from the builders, with typically a 7 year contract, including a mid-term repaint. The average wagon had therefore had a repaint within the last 2 years. Even allowing for the high levels of dirt and pollution coal wagons would have been exposed to, and that rain would not have washed dirt off the wheels, unlike the sides to some extent, I think we would see more white rims in photos of wagons in service if they were common/universal.

 

Nick.

[Chas Levin]

On 04/04/2023 at 08:21, magmouse said:

 

'Scale' gloss is tricky, I think, especially in the smaller scales. The specular highlights that are a main visual cue that enables the eye/brain to recognise a gloss surface are less visible at a distance. Also, because details on our models are not as 'sharp' as the prototype (the radii of corners and edges are greater than scale) the specular highlights are bigger than scale. I think that is a key reason that matt finished models look more realistic than ones with glossier finishes - the highlights on details and edges are too large and visually prominent, and the brain uses this information to judge scale and distance.

 

Thanks for this explanation Nick; I've seen quite frequent reference to the desirability of matting down gloss for models, 'scaling' gloss and so forth, but never much about what's happening when we look at full size vs model size gloss. Very interesting and similar to some of the ideas behind scaling colours.

[Compound2632]

2 hours ago, magmouse said:

A lot of PO wagons were hired from the builders, with typically a 7 year contract, including a mid-term repaint. The average wagon had therefore had a repaint within the last 2 years. Even allowing for the high levels of dirt and pollution coal wagons would have been exposed to, and that rain would not have washed dirt off the wheels, unlike the sides to some extent, I think we would see more white rims in photos of wagons in service if they were common/universal.

 

Consequently, the proportion of wagons* with white tyres seen in photographs "in the field" will give an estimate of how long the white tyres lasted in traffic...

 

*That is to say, of wagons probably given white tyres at the works: some fraction of PO wagons, principally.

[magmouse]

6 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

some fraction of PO wagons, principally.

And there’s the rub - we still have too many variables. When we don’t see white tyres on a wagon, is it because they are covered in dirt, or they were never there in the first place? Unless we can pin down more accurately the proportion of wagons that started off with white tyres. Back to my original question that started this thread!

 

Nick.

[Schooner]

Very much a lay observer, but so far the impression I've picked up

• Unless you're modeling the Caley, white rims on POs only
• Most prevalent late 1880s to early 1900s
• Rims likely painted at build and mid-term TLC; unlikely maintained in service
• Weathering likely renders the above moot within...

...gut instinct is something in the order of a fortnight, based on absolutely no evidence whatsoever. Body sides are seen in varying shades of weathering. Running gear, as I recall anyway, seems to be a fairly binary 'black and shiny-new' or 'muck and dusty used' suggesting the journey from one to the other was pretty rapid.

 

Reasonable summation so far? That's plenty of usefull modellable info already :)

 

 

[kevinlms]

33 minutes ago, magmouse said:

And there’s the rub - we still have too many variables. When we don’t see white tyres on a wagon, is it because they are covered in dirt, or they were never there in the first place? Unless we can pin down more accurately the proportion of wagons that started off with white tyres. Back to my original question that started this thread!

 

Nick.

And one that we will never know, because the predominately P.O. wagon, stopped being made in September 1939 and the number of people, who either built them, maintained them or line side spotted them, in sufficient recollection to be certain, in getting vanishingly small.

So unless someone can find a survey compiled way back, then are we going to come up with something better than a rough percentage?

 

The modern world can create a database, relatively easy from any number of sources and share it easily using the internet, but back in the day, it was all personal observation and someone, creating long, boring lists! I remember reading Bob Essery saying that about the LMS Diag. 1666 wagon, of which 54,450 were built and were given random numbers!

[magmouse]

9 minutes ago, kevinlms said:

then are we going to come up with something better than a rough percentage?

 

No, but a rough percentage would be enough for modelling purposes. For a typical modeller with a fleet of perhaps 5-20 wagons, all we needs is a sense of whether white rims were:

• rare, because only done for photos
• 10-20%
• about half
• most

If we had a few more samples of paint specifications, or photos of groups of wagons in service where we could be confident we could tell the difference between painted white or not, then we might possibly get to the point of reasonable confidence in an answer. It is still rather moot, I think, but not impossible.

 

Nick.