Inverness-Glasgow/Edinburgh Mk2 sets

[Wex Cel]

Good evening, I'm modelling the Highland Line in the Large Logo era - circa 1986/7.

 

I have formations for the Clansman and the Chieftain HST, the sleepers as well but I'm slightly confused with the Inverness day sets.

 

I had a look on the ex-Yahoo Coaching Stock Group, but the Carriage Working books they have only go up to 1983 for Scotland.

 

From other posts on this forum it seems the booked formation of the Inverness-Glasgow/Edinburgh sets was BSO-TSO-TSO-TSOT-CK, however I'm unclear on a few things.

 

How many sets were there? I tried figuring it out from the 1986 and 1987 timetable but not having diagrams or CWNs to hand makes that difficult to calculate.

 

Also, I've seen photos with a Mk1 BG in the formation, so were there specific workings these were added to for conveying mail or something or was it completely ad hoc - added as required?

 

Also, some sets in 1986 seem to be strengthed to 6 or 7 coaches with an extra BSO/TSO, was this specific or ad hoc? It doesn't appear to be done in 1987 and thereafter; perhaps not enough coaches in an expanded timetable?

 

Finally, in some photos sets have a BFK instead of a CK, was this a booked alternative or simply occasions where a BFK was all that was available for First Class?

 

I do have a 1986 Platform 5 Combined, but I can't see any air braked Mk2 BFK allocated to Inverness, unless I'm missing something?

 

Cheers, Wex.

Edited June 20, 2022 by Wex Cel

[keefer]

regarding the CK, presumably these were the 5 Mk2c conversions (seems odd but is original no. minus 600) 7550/7551/7553/7558/7561.

as you say regarding BFK, at the time (P5 1986 book to 21/6/86) IS had 17003/5/21/24 but they were Vac brake.

Otherwise EC had Mk2c BFK 17127/8 and that was it.

[Wex Cel]

On 28/05/2022 at 23:18, keefer said:

regarding the CK, presumably these were the 5 Mk2c conversions (seems odd but is original no. minus 600) 7550/7551/7553/7558/7561.

as you say regarding BFK, at the time (P5 1986 book to 21/6/86) IS had 17003/5/21/24 but they were Vac brake.

Otherwise EC had Mk2c BFK 17127/8 and that was it.

Thank you, Keefer. I have the numbers of the CKs, as there were only five I assumed there could only be five Highland Main Line sets but then I thought you'd probably allocate one as spare - leaving four.

 

The other option, is there were five sets and if a CK was out for maintenance then what ever was available was used, possibly though BFKs at Craigentinny you list.

 

There are some photos where sets appear to have no First Class, usually an extra TSO is added instead. So that would seem to suggest the five sets in traffic theory with no allocated spare and simply using what was available as cover.

 

Still, it would be interesting to have the official line as to arrangements.

 

Many thanks for your reply though, Keefer - any information is appreciated.

[The Pilotman]

This video may have some inspiration for you:

 

 

[Wex Cel]

On 30/05/2022 at 20:44, The Pilotman said:

This video may have some inspiration for you:

 

 

Thank you, I have already come across that during my researches but appreciate it all the same.

[keefer]

Maybe doesn't help explain everything but some nice photos with coaches visible:

http://eastbank.org.uk/highland.htm

Prior to the Mk2c CK, first class provision seemed to be Mk2/2a FK

Edited June 10, 2022 by keefer

[turbos]

The 1980s Mk2 Highland Mainline sets were formed TSO-BSO-TSO/CK-TSO(T) and often strengthened with an additional TSO, usually as part of the CK/TSO(T) part of the formation. The TSO-BSO-TSO were used on the Scottish  internal sleeper trains hence the apparent constantly changing precise formations.

Hope that helps.

 

Brian.

[Wex Cel]

On 10/06/2022 at 20:32, keefer said:

Maybe doesn't help explain everything but some nice photos with coaches visible:

http://eastbank.org.uk/highland.htm

Prior to the Mk2c CK, first class provision seemed to be Mk2/2a FK

Fractionally early for me, but much appreciated Keefer,  thanks. I'd guess they were the Mk2C FK that were converted to CK during 1985.

 

On 18/06/2022 at 13:26, turbos said:

The 1980s Mk2 Highland Mainline sets were formed TSO-BSO-TSO/CK-TSO(T) and often strengthened with an additional TSO, usually as part of the CK/TSO(T) part of the formation. The TSO-BSO-TSO were used on the Scottish  internal sleeper trains hence the apparent constantly changing precise formations.

Hope that helps.

 

Brian.

So use of BFK, was simply due to shortages then?

 

Any idea how many sets of either:

 

TSO-BSO-TSO and of

TSOT-CK

 

Thanks for your help.

[Flood]

Looking at my notes from 12 July 1985 I have the following:

 

07.36 Edin - Glas, 10.05 Glas - Inv, 16.30 Inv - Edin

47199: 5272, 6510, 5318, 7561, 5394, 9463

 

07.06 Edin - Inv, 12.30 Inv - Glas, 17.14 Glas - Edin

47207: 5132, 17099, 5096, 9100, 5145 (Craigentinny Mk2z TSOs, 17099 and 9100 Inverness, all vacuum braked)

This rake was also seen at Glas two days previously and at Cowlairs on 7 July. It would seem to have worked this diagram all week.

 

09.25 Edin - Inv, 14.30 Inv - Edin

5330, 5333, 9444, 5307, 7550, 6519: 47519

 

13.03 Edin - Inv, 17.20 Inv - Glas

Not seen

 

23.25 Edin - Inv

Not seen

 

23.30 Glas - Perth (attached to 23.25 Edin)

Not seen

 

09.20 Inv - Glas, 13.36 Glas - Inv

47001: 7553, 5401, 6518, 5273, 5271 (brake missed)

 

23.30 Inv - Glas (departed Inv 11/7/85), Edin portion not seen

47604: 92242, 84280, 9440, 5269, 10614

 

Seen 3 days earlier on the 09.25 Edin - Inv diagram (1 x TSO, 1 x BSO possibly in balancing move for maintenance requirements)

47424: 92075, 5393, 9443, 5272, 6510, 5318, 7558, 5394, 9463

 

Therefore the 1985/86 timetable used four air braked sets and one vacuum braked set per day plus maintenance spares. For the 1986-87 timetable please see my subsequent post below.

 

Below is the Inverness rakes section from the article on Scottish air braked sets, Rail Magazine February 1988. This covers services from May 1987.

Inverness gained Mk2C BFKs 17127 and 17128 in May 1987.

 

I hope that all this helps you.

Edited June 22, 2022 by Flood

[Flood]

After having a look on Flickr I've found two photos (Sept 1986 and Dec 1986) with air braked stock and a Mk2C BFK included.

 

David Christie on Flickr

 

Bruce Galloway on Flickr

 

17127 and 17128 were at Craigentinny from April 1986 to May 1987, before they moved to Inverness, and it would seem that they were used as an alternative to a Mk2C CK from the May 1986 timetable. Craigentinny had no Mk2a TSOs and only one Mk2a BSO (9418) before May 1987 so the BFKs seem to have been used with Inverness stock.

 

If the BFKs kept the same diagram as stated in the 1987-1988 information above then they would have spent the majority of their time at Craigentinny anyway.

Edited June 22, 2022 by Flood

[DCB]

I didn't get to Inverness until 1987, post re signaling with colour lights,  with 37/4 s in full control of the lines to the north, and 47s operating to both  Perth and Aberdeen.  This was a short lived situation , which I model in my garden, more in theory than in practice as weeds have won the battle for dominance,   The  Sprinters came in by 1988/9 to the far north following the fall of the Ness Bridge and quickly saw the end of the 37/4s  on passenger.

However the Inverness carriage sheds, that is the multiple road shed not the two road HST/ Mk3 sleeper maintenance shed alongside which remains in use,  were in use at that time and I remember them putting sets away at night. However the shed was fairly short so sets were broken up for stabling. IIRC into 3 or maybe 4s  This might explain the constantly changing sets.  Rail magazine reported that something like 400 different class 47s had been seen at Inverness which is mind boggling and no two were alike by 1987/8  large / small ligo blue, I/C red stripe, Scotrail blue stripe, grey etc, and some with headcodes, some with them plated over...

Edited June 22, 2022 by DCB

[Wex Cel]

On 21/06/2022 at 01:22, Flood said:

Looking at my notes from 12 July 1985 I have the following:

 

07.36 Edin - Glas, 10.05 Glas - Inv, 16.30 Inv - Edin

47199: 5272, 6510, 5318, 7561, 5394, 9463

 

07.06 Edin - Inv, 12.30 Inv - Glas, 17.14 Glas - Edin

47207: 5132, 17099, 5096, 9100, 5145 (Craigentinny Mk2z TSOs, 17099 and 9100 Inverness, all vacuum braked)

This rake was also seen at Glas two days previously and at Cowlairs on 7 July. It would seem to have worked this diagram all week.

 

09.25 Edin - Inv, 14.30 Inv - Edin

5330, 5333, 9444, 5307, 7550, 6519: 47519

 

13.03 Edin - Inv, 17.20 Inv - Glas

Not seen

 

23.25 Edin - Inv

Not seen

 

23.30 Glas - Perth (attached to 23.25 Edin)

Not seen

 

09.20 Inv - Glas, 13.36 Glas - Inv

47001: 7553, 5401, 6518, 5273, 5271 (brake missed)

 

23.30 Inv - Glas (departed Inv 11/7/85), Edin portion not seen

47604: 92242, 84280, 9440, 5269, 10614

 

Seen 3 days earlier on the 09.25 Edin - Inv diagram (1 x TSO, 1 x BSO possibly in balancing move for maintenance requirements)

47424: 92075, 5393, 9443, 5272, 6510, 5318, 7558, 5394, 9463

 

Therefore the 1985/86 timetable used four air braked sets and one vacuum braked set per day plus maintenance spares

Thank you, Flood. That's very useful, so 5 sets were required and presumably that carried into 86/87.

 

On 21/06/2022 at 01:22, Flood said:

Below is the Inverness rakes section from the article on Scottish air braked sets, Rail Magazine February 1988. This covers services from May 1987.

Even better, that's very handy.

 

So for '87, there were five diagrams it might be best to put it, formed as mentioned above of two sets essentially.

 

Because there were only 5 CK and 5 TSOT, obviously that needed some form of maintenance cover and that's where the BFK/TSO set comes in. Very nice to have that explanation now.

 

On 22/06/2022 at 00:21, Flood said:

After having a look on Flickr I've found two photos (Sept 1986 and Dec 1986) with air braked stock and a Mk2C BFK included.

 

David Christie on Flickr

 

Bruce Galloway on Flickr

 

17127 and 17128 were at Craigentinny from April 1986 to May 1987, before they moved to Inverness, and it would seem that they were used as an alternative to a Mk2C CK from the May 1986 timetable. Craigentinny had no Mk2a TSOs and only one Mk2a BSO (9418) before May 1987 so the BFKs seem to have been used with Inverness stock.

 

If the BFKs kept the same diagram as stated in the 1987-1988 information above then they would have spent the majority of their time at Craigentinny anyway.

It was actually a video on YouTube that prompted my original query re use of BFK vehicles (Queen Street, 1986 - perhaps you've seen it? Or I could probably find the link again), but in that video the set had a BFK and no TSOT on the 1233 GLQ-INV.

 

Subsequent study of photos on Flickr showed use of BFKs to be common enough, but also sets with no First Class and/or TSO at times.

 

There's a superb shot of 47643 in early 1990 on load 5 nearing Dalwhinnie, with the distant Cairngorms acting as a magnificent backdrop, the set there was 3 2A TSO, 2D TSOT, 2C BSO as best I can tell - no First Class.

 

Thanks for the photos, some hood ones there.

 

On 22/06/2022 at 03:18, DCB said:

I didn't get to Inverness until 1987, post re signaling with colour lights,  with 37/4 s in full control of the lines to the north, and 47s operating to both  Perth and Aberdeen.  This was a short lived situation , which I model in my garden, more in theory than in practice as weeds have won the battle for dominance,   The  Sprinters came in by 1988/9 to the far north following the fall of the Ness Bridge and quickly saw the end of the 37/4s  on passenger.

However the Inverness carriage sheds, that is the multiple road shed not the two road HST/ Mk3 sleeper maintenance shed alongside which remains in use,  were in use at that time and I remember them putting sets away at night. However the shed was fairly short so sets were broken up for stabling. IIRC into 3 or maybe 4s  This might explain the constantly changing sets.  Rail magazine reported that something like 400 different class 47s had been seen at Inverness which is mind boggling and no two were alike by 1987/8  large / small ligo blue, I/C red stripe, Scotrail blue stripe, grey etc, and some with headcodes, some with them plated over...

Such was one of my overriding attractions to the HML, as well as the scenery, I have a very legitimate excuse to go overboard with 47s on the rolling stock front! 

 

[64F]

Later on (1988-90) I remember odd Craigentinny coaches turning up in the Inverness rakes, and no doubt that happened earlier as well.  In particular it was not too unusual to see a ScotRail liveried mk2 TSO in amongst the blue/greys.  I also remember seeing the mk2a FKs on Inverness workings, and once a ScotRail liveried 2d TSOT.  To my lasting regret I threw out my train composition sighting notes many years ago.

 

The Inverness trains are a problem to model due to the lack of a RTR mk2c, but hopefully Accurascale will address that in due course!

 

[Wex Cel]

On 27/06/2022 at 10:44, 64F said:

Later on (1988-90) I remember odd Craigentinny coaches turning up in the Inverness rakes, and no doubt that happened earlier as well.

Yes, I'm getting the impression that that was the case even before Inverness' carriage stock allocation was reduced in the Sprinterisation period.

 

On 27/06/2022 at 10:44, 64F said:

In particular it was not too unusual to see a ScotRail liveried mk2 TSO in amongst the blue/greys.  I also remember seeing the mk2a FKs on Inverness workings, and once a ScotRail liveried 2d TSOT.

I haven't seen any of those variations, but good to know - would make for an interesting change to the standard plain all Blue/Grey sets. 

 

On 27/06/2022 at 10:44, 64F said:

To my lasting regret I threw out my train composition sighting notes many years ago.

Unfortunately I lost many notebooks of material in a house move, I would have sworn I packed everything and certainly I did a double check that every room and cupboard was completely empty before handing the keys to the estate agent. (No furniture was left either.)

 

8 years later? Still not found those notebooks... *sigh* I've rather given up finding them now.

 

On 27/06/2022 at 10:44, 64F said:

The Inverness trains are a problem to model due to the lack of a RTR mk2c, but hopefully Accurascale will address that in due course!

Definitely an issue, yes. I'm not hugely confident at doing conversions, so ready-to-run 2Cs would be extremely welcome I must say.

 

 

 

 

[Wex Cel]

The only unresolved question I have really is use of BGs in formations.

 

I thought perhaps if I linked to some photos, it might demonstrate what I meant about use of BGs.

 

These are from 1987-89 and are all of the 0933 Glasgow QS-Inverness service. All have a BG in formation, one actually has two.

 

These first two are from Bruce Galloway:

0933 GLQ-INV 15/05/87

 

0933 GLQ-INV 05/04/88

 

Then two of John Whiteley's:

0933 GLQ-INV 09/06/88 (Note 2×BGs on rear)

 

0933 GLQ-INV 11/06/88 (At least I think that's a Mk1 BG just in shot at the back.)

 

Finally, one of Michael J. Collins:

 

0933 GLQ-INV 21/03/89

So, it seems the 0933 was booked to have a BG? Other workings do have one, but not with any regularity.

 

So, would it be correct to assume specific services were intended to convey a BG? Ie the 0933 ex-Queen Street, possibly others?

 

Thanks again.

 

[turbos]

On 29/06/2022 at 20:13, Wex Cel said:

 

 

On 27/06/2022 at 10:44, 64F said:

The Inverness trains are a problem to model due to the lack of a RTR mk2c, but hopefully Accurascale will address that in due course!

Definitely an issue, yes. I'm not hugely confident at doing conversions, so ready-to-run 2Cs would be extremely welcome I must say.

Currently the easiest way to produce a reasonable Mk2C is to convert a Lima Mk2b. Swap out the roof for a Lima Mk2 aircon roof, add some suitable vents. Flush glazing would improve it as well and you have a passable early build Mk2c until a decent rtr Mk2c becomes available. I currently have the bits to do one in my ‘projects to do’ box. I expect a rtr one will turn up shortly after I get round to doing it!

 

Brian.

 

 

[DCB]

On 02/07/2022 at 16:35, Wex Cel said:

These are from 1987-89 and are all of the 0933 Glasgow QS-Inverness service.

Wow what a difference to today.   Especially Carr Bridge, and what looks like Schloct summit.  That really was modern image with fresh ballast, and little vegetation. Short formation HSTs today. On  Tuesday Stagecoach had a train replacement bus service from Avoemore to Inverness when the A9 over Schloct was closed for 12 hours due to a fatal crash and fire.  Diversion was 65 miles via Nairn  (or Croy) 

[Wex Cel]

On 03/07/2022 at 04:20, turbos said:

Currently the easiest way to produce a reasonable Mk2C is to convert a Lima Mk2b. Swap out the roof for a Lima Mk2 aircon roof, add some suitable vents. Flush glazing would improve it as well and you have a passable early build Mk2c until a decent rtr Mk2c becomes available. I currently have the bits to do one in my ‘projects to do’ box. I expect a rtr one will turn up shortly after I get round to doing it!

 

Brian.

 

 

Yes, a 2A doesn't really work for conversion does it!

 

I have been down the lines of considering it, then getting cold feet and I certainly wouldn't want to cut up any Accurascale 2Bs - they are far too nice for such brutalistic surgery, especially at my very un-surgeon like hands.

 

I do hope someone comes along with a 2C, perhaps Accurascale again as one of their NIR models is a 2C design iirc?

 

Yep, that seems to be what invariably happens - one goes to the bother of doing a conversion and almost immediately on completion - an RTR model is announced! Sod's Law of course, can't get away from it.

 

 

[Wex Cel]

9 hours ago, DCB said:

Wow what a difference to today.

Load 5 typically but sometimes 6 or 7.

 

After the HML linespeeed increases in 1984/5 were implemented the journey times weren't too bad, particularly after 1987 when the pattern was tidied a bit; Glasgow-Inverness was about 3h37 on average, but the Glasgow services essentially formed the stoppers - calling all stations Larbert-Carrbridge inclusive, so arguably that's quite a decent performance. For some reason they only seemed to call at Larbert northbound. The first train from Edinburgh ran in the path of a regular interval Dunblane, so was all stops Edinburgh-Dunblane, but semi-fast over the Highland Line. The other Edinburgh services were usually semi-fast, both the ScotRail morning services and the InterCity Clansman and Chieftains.

 

The current service is almost the best ever, worth remembering that as recently as 2011 Glasgow had only three direct Inverness trains per day.

 

Other than the few COVID-period adjustments, the 2011 pattern essentially remains except Edinburgh has lost one train pair.

 

The short HSTs look good, but I never seem to obtain one! Either cancelled, substituted or I don't pick an HST-booked service! C'est la vie!

[westie7]

Well after today's announcement from Accurascale, these formations are more than achievable without major surgery 🥳 

[hexagon789]

1 hour ago, westie7 said:

Well after today's announcement from Accurascale, these formations are more than achievable without major surgery 🥳 

Very nice, I need some CKs and TSOTs myself.

Edited February 10, 2023 by hexagon789

[GordonC]

On 10/02/2023 at 18:00, westie7 said:

Well after today's announcement from Accurascale, these formations are more than achievable without major surgery 🥳 

 

With a bit of luck they might keep going with the Mk2As so we get them to a matching standard! ;)

[D860 VICTORIOUS]

Lots of detailed info and quality photo's in this interesting topic.

I've noticed in a couple of pics,what appears to be a Mk2 with half a yellow 1st Class line,would that be a Composite type,maybe confined to Scotland ?

TIA,

Neil.

[GordonC]

1 hour ago, D860 VICTORIOUS said:

Lots of detailed info and quality photo's in this interesting topic.

I've noticed in a couple of pics,what appears to be a Mk2 with half a yellow 1st Class line,would that be a Composite type,maybe confined to Scotland ?

TIA,

Neil.

 

Mk2c CK, there was a handful converted from FKs

[keefer]

The 5 Mk2c conversions were 7550/7551/7553/7558/7561 (original no. minus 600).

(From further up the thread)

Edited February 15, 2023 by keefer