GW markings on cattle wagons

[2251]

36 minutes ago, Miss Prism said:

 

Something, probably inaccurate, rumbling in my brain says the GWR changeover from red to yellow distant arms began in the London district c 1924. Maybe 1927 before the programme started to be applied in other districts?
 

Vaughan in A Pictorial Record of Great Western Signalling (a work entirely devoid of foot-notes, and the accuracy of which I am therefore inclined to doubt) asserts on p 15 that "it was 1927 before the Great Western even began to comply [with the Board of Trade requirement] and 1933 before the alteration was complete."

[corneliuslundie]

OK, not the only reason. I was being cheeky. As you say, lots of pre-grouping stock from absorbed/amalgamated companies for a few years, though the GWR got rid of a lot of it quite quickly, albeit that goods stock often went into "docks" use for a few years.  

And 1912 is interesting as one had three potential passenger liveries: "old" chocolate and cream", chocolate, and lake. I am taking advantage of that.

Jonathan

[Compound2632]

2 hours ago, corneliuslundie said:

OK, not the only reason. I was being cheeky. As you say, lots of pre-grouping stock from absorbed/amalgamated companies for a few years, though the GWR got rid of a lot of it quite quickly, albeit that goods stock often went into "docks" use for a few years.  

And 1912 is interesting as one had three potential passenger liveries: "old" chocolate and cream", chocolate, and lake. I am taking advantage of that.

Jonathan

 

But remember that even on the Great Western, with pooling in force for ordinary opens and vans, there would be a high proportion of LMS and LNER wagons, a high proportion of which were of pre-grouping origin. Even in 1946, 38% of LMS wagons were of pre-grouping origin.

[The Stationmaster]

The awkward question then has to be that if powers were made applicable from 1926 why did they have to be repeated in the (far more precisely) in the 1927 Order.  The inference of that order is that previous o Orders were not regarded as anything like sufficiently comprehensive although it does, apparently, add phenol as an approved disinfectant in addition to what was specified as being applicable from April 1926.

 

Incidentally the 'recipe' for lime wash on the GWR was one gallon of water to 1lb of quicklime.

 

3 hours ago, Miss Prism said:

 

Something, probably inaccurate, rumbling in my brain says the GWR changeover from red to yellow distant arms began in the London district c 1924. Maybe 1927 before the programme started to be applied in other districts?
 

One source I read years ago said the GWR completed the changeover in1927 but that was almost certainly wrong and another secondary source states that red was the standard colour d for distant signal arms up to 1927 - which I think is again wrong as repainting work started earlier than that but maybe hat fits for a wider application. 

[corneliuslundie]

But remember that GWR cattle wagons were not common user like those of the other three Grouping companies. I didn't realise that until after I had acquired rather too many of other companies'.

Jonathan

[Compound2632]

1 minute ago, corneliuslundie said:

But remember that GWR cattle wagons were not common user like those of the other three Grouping companies. I didn't realise that until after I had acquired rather too many of other companies'.

Jonathan

 

Certainly; I was drifting OT. But although GW cattle wagons were only briefly in the pool - June to December 1927 - and hence would have to be returned empty pronto if dispatched to a non-GW destination, that doesn't mean that you wouldn't see cattle wagons from the other lines in GW territory, if loaded there from a non-GW station; though they in their turn would be sent home promptly.

[The Stationmaster]

6 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

 

Certainly; I was drifting OT. But although GW cattle wagons were only briefly in the pool - June to December 1927 - and hence would have to be returned empty pronto if dispatched to a non-GW destination, that doesn't mean that you wouldn't see cattle wagons from the other lines in GW territory, if loaded there from a non-GW station; though they in their turn would be sent home promptly.

And sent home empty and not cleaned unless a return load to the home company was available in which case they would be cleaned before reloading (GWR Instruction).

[bécasse]

On 10/06/2022 at 13:15, Miss Prism said:

 

Something, probably inaccurate, rumbling in my brain says the GWR changeover from red to yellow distant arms began in the London district c 1924. Maybe 1927 before the programme started to be applied in other districts?
 

From the Railway Magazine October 1927:

Having checked back to January 1923 I couldn't find any other references to the change of distant signal colours on the GWR. There were several other references in the autumn of 1927 to the colour change on the SR which suggested that a patchy programme was underway there, for new works it may well have coincided with the switchover to concrete signal posts which seems to have started in summer 1926 although the first colour-light signals were installed rather earlier in 1926.

Edited June 12, 2022 by bécasse

[The Stationmaster]

On 11/06/2022 at 21:05, bécasse said:

From the Railway Magazine October 1927:

Having checked back to January 1923 I couldn't find any other references to the change of distant signal colours on the GWR. There were several other references in the autumn of 1927 to the colour change on the SR which suggested that a patchy programme was underway there, for new works it may well have coincided with the switchover to concrete signal posts which seems to have started in summer 1926 although the first colour-light signals were installed rather earlier in 1926.

The interesting thing about that article is the 'sort of error' it contains because orange is noted as a caution signal light colour in the GWR 1920 General Appendix although the signal position is described as 'warning (that the next signal in advance is at danger)' rather than as 'caution'.  However it is described as caution in both the special 1927 Supplement to the Rule Book and in  the 1936 GA.  While all of this applies to three position semaphores it does show that orange definitely existed as a caution light in some GWR fixed signals prior to 1927.  It also no doubt applied to three aspect colour light signals but as yet I have been totally unable to establish when the well know three position semaphore at Paddington was replaced by a three aspect colour light although it definitely predated the 1930s changes and resignalling at Paddington.

 

Alas I'm rather short of amendments to both the GWR 1920 General Appendix (I can only go up to January 1924) and the 1923 GWR Rule Book (where I have a gap in supplements between 1925 and 1933) although I can fill some stuff from the Minute books.  But oddly the colour of distant signal arms and lights doesn't seem to appear in the Rules & Regulations Committee minutes after 1915 - when a change to a colour other than red was proposed but decided against.  However the 1915 minute does cast an interesting light on the GWR's position at that time because apart from mentioning the unsatisfactory trial of 'an indicator' (perhaps a Coligny-Welch indicator?) which Drivers found of no value the minute mentions the use of ATC which gives a positive means of  identifying a distant signal and suggests that as a reason for not changing the colour of distant signals.

[kevinlms]

On 10/06/2022 at 05:13, Compound2632 said:

Yes, @2251, I quoted the 1927 order on what I thought was good authority but as I noted, was a bit puzzled as to the bearing it actually had on the question, so I'm very pleased you've gone to the trouble of sorting it all out. I think I agree with @corneliuslundie and @Miss Prism that theremust have been a transition period during which, the writing being on the wall for limewash, other disinfectants will have been coming more widely into use. 

 

But i'm with Jason: for my 1902 modelling, it's limewash and red distants, just as for him it's no limewash and yellow distants. Who'd want to model 1925/6?

Not least a consideration of WHEN exactly a new system of cleaning cattle wagons came about, would be the difference in price of cleaning materials. If non whitewash means were cheaper, then the changeover would have started earlier, not long after the information came out! Conversely, no rush if more expensive.