Is this a Jamieson loco?

[Johnson044]

Hi - I've just bought this elderly Midland 4-4-0 on a whim. I like the patina and the effort that has obviously been put in to building it. A bit out of my normal sphere of interest as I'm firmly of the 7mm persuasion. Scale is 4mm, EM gauge, stud contact. The parts seem too precisely cut out to have been made by whoever assembled it - I'm thinking maybe a Jamieson / Eames kit rather than scratch built? I've not yet investigated the motor - the frames seem to be soldered to the footplate and the cab / boiler assembly seems to come off to leave the splashers etc in place - not sure how the wheels (which seem to be Romfords, but maybe turned to a finer profile than standard?

 

The cab / tender steps throw me slightly - the entire assemblies of treads / back plates are folded up from single pieces of metal, rather than separate treads soldered on.  Un sprung except for the front bogie, which is sprung.

 

I'm not going to try to "restore" or anything - just keep as bought. As I say, I like the patina.

 

The photos are all the original seller's ones. I'll take a couple of my own when I have a gentle exploration of the motor etc.

 

The big lump of lead in the cab is completely loose- and the loco doesn't seem particularly nose-heavy without it.

 

Anyone got any thoughts as to possible manufacturer or history? I've not come across any reference in magazines or on the web to an EM gauge stud contact layout.

 

Thanks for looking folks.

[Johnson044]

 not sure how the wheels (which seem to be Romfords, but maybe turned to a finer profile than standard?) can be removed for maintenance without great difficulty

[Barclay]

The steps remind me of the ones supplied in the stamped brass kits produced by R. M. Evans and Co. in the late forties/early fifties. Here's my 3F with very similar steps. I can't find at the moment what limited on-line info there is on the company to see if they did one of these or not. R.M. Evans was the Martin Evans who would become editor of Model Engineer in the late sixties.

 

[Johnson044]

Thanks - there was a brass Jinty body for sale by the same ebay vendor. I didn't bid and it's gone now. I'll see if I can get him to send me a photo.

 

There was also a rather fine Furness Baltic tank from the same collection.

 

[Barclay]

If it's unpainted then look at the smokebox door because this was also stamped brass on mine, rather than the casting you might expect. Same loco. before paint:

 

 

 

[Johnson044]

4-4-0 seems to be white metal.

[Barclay]

Back to the drawing board !

[Johnson044]

Just the smokebox door I mean! The rest is sheet brass.

 

[Johnson044]

The motor is a Pittman. Another possible identifying feature is that the footplate valances are from square section brass, which I read somewhere is a Jamieson feature. All starting to point to 1960's rather than 1950's I think.

[crackedmember]

There was also a Furness Railway Baltic Tank for sale, which I purchased also possibly EM gauge and stud contact.  Have not been able to check the Back to back accurately, but definitely at least 17.5mm. 

 

Will post photos at the weekend.

 

Cheers

 

Clive

[Michael Edge]

The folded up steps were a feature of Jamieson kits as was the square section footplate angle.

[russell price]

I have a half built Jamieson 2p and this looks similar, Jamieson used mazac castings for smokebox doors too.

[5050]

Wheels could be Cimco perhaps?  Similar fixing to Romfords but possibly a bit finer.  Interesting concept, securing the footplate to the frames but I wonder if the builder considered having to remove the wheels at a future date. He must have fastened the footplate to the chassis with the wheels in place.

[Johnson044]

Thanks 5050 - I'd never heard of Cimco. It's all slightly alien territory for me as I've not dabbled in 4mm since my yoof. From memory Romfords definitely seemed much coarser than those on my loco, which also seem much thinner than I remember Romfords being. They seem to be a grey mazak or white metal with N/S or just possibly brass tyres. Don't think I can discern any rim insulation. Fixed to axles in the same way as Romfords. I think you could probably get the wheels off and remove them leaving the axles in situ and then remove the axles sideways but it would be quite a juggle. I've no intention of doing so! The frames aren't painted behind the driven wheels but they are painted behind the coupled wheels. The bogie / tender wheels are presumably Jacksons- so post mid '50's at the very, very earliest.

 

A friend, who I really respect as an authority on these things reckons the smoke box door is a Hamblings casting (and it's back to front too!) and feels that the gauge of brass is much heavier than a Jamieson kit (and he's not aware of them ever doing a kit for this loco) and very possibly scratch built. I'm not convinced still - the spectacle plate and tender frames look far too precisely cut out.

 

The mystery deepens!

[railroadbill]

 

 

You prompted me to find this Jamieson 2P that I started eons ago (then built a Milholme 2P cast kit instead and never got round to finishing this one). 

 

 

It has the square sectioned footplate angle (as Michael Edge said, a Jamieson feature).

 

Johnson044's loco has midland boiler fittings unlike the 2P here.  However, 990 (number on model)  was the first of the Deeley Midland 4P locos built 1909.  Kind of an alternative to the Deeley compounds. I have a feeling they were built for use on the Settle and Carlisle, but can't find a reference at the moment.

 

 

Jamieson price list for December 1978.  (VAT was 8% then!). There isn't an inside cylindered 4P there (990 class) but there is a Compound.  So a possibility is that this model is a Jamieson Compound kit, but built without outside cylinders as a 990. The 2 locos were very similar above the footplate.

Back a while ago on the Great British Locos thread, one contributor (sorry can't remember who)  motorised and converted a GBR compound into a successfully  working 990 4P.  

 

So - did the OP's model start out as a Jamieson compound  (body kit a mere £7.80 in 1978)?

 

ps as there were only 10 990 4Ps and many more Compounds, it looks like the compound was the more successful 4P loco for the MR and later the LMS.

[Johnson044]

Thanks Railroadbill- very interesting stuff. 

 

The Midland 990 I have seems to be "all of a piece" and not a conversion. The cab, splashers and footplate would all be very different to the compound and show no sign of ever having been altered. The cab seems to be cut out to the same standard as the spectacle plate so don't think it has ever been replaced. The Jamieson 4p Compound is advertised as an LMS one and if that were the case then the tender (possibly) would have been the same as that on the 2P - and probably the smokebox but the Compound's boiler would be longer than the 2P. I don't know how much Jamieson made use of common parts.

 

The boiler on mine looks slightly smaller in diameter than your Jamieson 2P one - and the smokebox is shorter and has rivets embossed.

 

The frames are quite thick - about 1/16" and are integral with the frames above the bogie, unlike those in your second photo.

 

The tender I have is very definitely a Johnson / Deeley Midland one and has a flat top with no recessed coal space.

 

The quality of the sheet metal parts seems higher than that of the assembly and painting.

 

I'm wavering but more and more inclined to think it's scratch built. I've sent some photos to the EM gauge society to see what they think.

 

I'll keep you posted!

 

Thanks again

 

J

[RedgateModels]

On 22/06/2022 at 22:31, railroadbill said:

 

 

You prompted me to find this Jamieson 2P that I started eons ago (then built a Milholme 2P cast kit instead and never got round to finishing this one). 

 

 

It has the square sectioned footplate angle (as Michael Edge said, a Jamieson feature).

 

Johnson044's loco has midland boiler fittings unlike the 2P here.  However, 990 (number on model)  was the first of the Deeley Midland 4P locos built 1909.  Kind of an alternative to the Deeley compounds. I have a feeling they were built for use on the Settle and Carlisle, but can't find a reference at the moment.

 

 

Jamieson price list for December 1978.  (VAT was 8% then!). There isn't an inside cylindered 4P there (990 class) but there is a Compound.  So a possibility is that this model is a Jamieson Compound kit, but built without outside cylinders as a 990. The 2 locos were very similar above the footplate.

Back a while ago on the Great British Locos thread, one contributor (sorry can't remember who)  motorised and converted a GBR compound into a successfully  working 990 4P.  

 

So - did the OP's model start out as a Jamieson compound  (body kit a mere £7.80 in 1978)?

 

ps as there were only 10 990 4Ps and many more Compounds, it looks like the compound was the more successful 4P loco for the MR and later the LMS.

 

Speaking of Compounds and Millholme

 

 

 

My Jamieson body (I think) scratchbuilt chassis using an XT60/X05 motor and a Millholme tender I built for it, OK, OK I know it's rivetted not beaded, that all Sherwood Models had at the time ;)

 

EDIT: also these were built a good 35 years ago when Sherwood Models were actually in Sherwood ;)

Edited June 24, 2022 by RedgateModels

[MarkC]

19 hours ago, railroadbill said:

 

 

Johnson044's loco has midland boiler fittings unlike the 2P here.  However, 990 (number on model)  was the first of the Deeley Midland 4P locos built 1909.  Kind of an alternative to the Deeley compounds. I have a feeling they were built for use on the Settle and Carlisle, but can't find a reference at the moment.

 

 

The 990s were indeed built for the S & C, and as a comparison to the Compounds. Good looking locomotives, and reportedly did all that was asked of them.

 

I suspect that the comparison project stopped once Deeley quit. They disappeared quite early on, primarily, I think, because they were 'non-standard'.

[railroadbill]

8 hours ago, RedgateModels said:

 

Speaking of Compounds and Millholme

 

 

 

My Jamieson body (I think) scratchbuilt chassis using an XT60/X05 motor and a Millholme tender I built for it, OK, OK I know it's rivetted not beaded, that all Sherwood Models had at the time ;)

I do like that!

[Johnson044]

17 hours ago, RedgateModels said:

 

Speaking of Compounds and Millholme

 

 

 

My Jamieson body (I think) scratchbuilt chassis using an XT60/X05 motor and a Millholme tender I built for it, OK, OK I know it's rivetted not beaded, that all Sherwood Models had at the time ;)

Beautiful model!