Brighton Trafalgar - An Edwardian LB&SCR Terminus

[Compound2632]

Midland Railway Traffic Committee minute No. 23702 of 20 December 1883:

 

Height of platforms

                              Read minute No. 6479 of the Way and Works Committee of December 7th, 1883, referring for the consideration of this Committee the recommendation of the Engineer that in future the standard height for platforms at passenger stations shall be, at London Suburban and large and important stations, three feet, and at other stations two feet six inches.

                              Resolved that the standard height to be three feet for London and London Suburban stations, but that two feet six inches be the standard height for all other stations, except by special direction of the Traffic Committee.

[Caley Jim]

Re platform heights and original buildings.  I offer these two photographs of Thankerton Station (one station south from Carstairs Junction on the CR main line).

 

This photo is, I would guess from late summer 1885, Central Station Hotel having been opened on 19th July that year.

I don't have a date for this photo, but it is clearly much later, probably c20th.

 

Compare the tops of the windows with both the roof line and the corner quoins.  They, and the doorway, have clearly been raised when the platforms were raised.  I know the people who bought and converted the building, after closure of the station, into a private residence and they did say that, on the inside, the windows sills were particularly high on that side.

 

Jim

Edited June 14, 2023 by Caley Jim
Typo

[t-b-g]

MS&LR drawings from 1895 are available on the web that show the height of a passenger platform as 3ft above the rail and a height of 4ft for "wharfs" which presumably covers loading docks.

 

Even though it is a different railway company, the drawings are worth a look as they are fully dimensioned and in the absence of correct LBSCR drawings, they can certainly be used to give a good indication of dimensions.

 

http://www.swithland-signal-works.co.uk/plans/plans.htm

 

 

[Lacathedrale]

7 hours ago, t-b-g said:

MS&LR drawings from 1895 are available on the web that show the height of a passenger platform as 3ft above the rail and a height of 4ft for "wharfs" which presumably covers loading docks.

 

Even though it is a different railway company, the drawings are worth a look as they are fully dimensioned and in the absence of correct LBSCR drawings, they can certainly be used to give a good indication of dimensions.

 

http://www.swithland-signal-works.co.uk/plans/plans.htm

 

 

 

Thank you Tony - your absence in this thread was noted :) Interestingly, the use of large square blocks instead of pavers for the edge of the platform with a flush wall is corroborated in the drawings you have linked. They're going to be very handy, thank you!

 

9 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

Midland Railway Traffic Committee minute No. 23702 of 20 December 1883:

 

Height of platforms

                              Read minute No. 6479 of the Way and Works Committee of December 7th, 1883, referring for the consideration of this Committee the recommendation of the Engineer that in future the standard height for platforms at passenger stations shall be, at London Suburban and large and important stations, three feet, and at other stations two feet six inches.

                              Resolved that the standard height to be three feet for London and London Suburban stations, but that two feet six inches be the standard height for all other stations, except by special direction of the Traffic Committee.

 

So I guess the only point of discussion is whether my station was rebuilt post-1880 along with the main Brighton station, or left in its original condition. On one hand the bullnose paving and lower platforms are distinctive and it would differentiate the station model from others - but on the other hand I think as a large town terminus it would be justified to have raised the platforms to 3' by the 1910's though - it's not a way station on a distant branch line after all. 

 

 

 

 

[Nick Holliday]

10 hours ago, Lacathedrale said:

 

Thank you Tony - your absence in this thread was noted :) Interestingly, the use of large square blocks instead of pavers for the edge of the platform with a flush wall is corroborated in the drawings you have linked. They're going to be very handy, thank you!

 

So I guess the only point of discussion is whether my station was rebuilt post-1880 along with the main Brighton station, or left in its original condition. On one hand the bullnose paving and lower platforms are distinctive and it would differentiate the station model from others - but on the other hand I think as a large town terminus it would be justified to have raised the platforms to 3' by the 1910's though - it's not a way station on a distant branch line after all. 

I’ve just been looking through the photographs I’ve taken of Brighton stations, and most had retained the brick edgings. Most notable is Tunbridge Wells West, hardly a way station. However, I can’t avow to the actual height; it looks as if it has been raised at least once in its lifetime, but it’s well within the realms of reality that the parsimonious Southern would have reused the edging bricks once the extra courses had been built. Interestingly the additional courses were not corbelled out, as might have been expected.

[t-b-g]

11 hours ago, Lacathedrale said:

 

Thank you Tony - your absence in this thread was noted :)

 

 

Just because I am not commenting or contributing doesn't mean I am not following what you are up to!

 

You seem to be making very good progress with the layout.

[Lacathedrale]

One of the trains i want to run is the Motor Rail service out of the station to a local branch line like Devil's Dyke, Kemp Town, or a more fantastical twig. Though the former was managed totally by a balloon driving trailer and a Terrier, other services such as one to Haywards Heath or in the outer suburban Balham increased capacity with a Brake Third.

 

I grabbed a Hornby 6w Brake Third - the most dominant features being the Stroudley-style brake end windows - and this afternoon set about giving it a quick repaint to my Umber and White livery. I think it suits just fine:

 

 

What a pleasant change to have the entire thing delivered, disassembled, painted, reassembled and essentially done in a single evening - rather than the ongoing saga of the Tri-ang conversions.

[Lacathedrale]

One idea I must give credit to @MrSimon for, was to raise up the loading dock, so it's the level of van doors/etc. - that's about 3'6" above rail level. It's not a perfect height, and the foreground would be a good deal lower (cab stand) but this is how it might look:

 

 

For most platform height variety, the foreground dock is high (and will get higher again on the end loading section ramp), the middle platform could be at the original 2'6" level, and the rear platform at 3' with steps down into the buildings there. Though I've cut a good number of strips of foamcore I've not yet had time to re-lay the concourse and platform to the lower height yet. I did realise that I could use 2mm square styrene for the blue brick edging and backfill  with filler to bring it up to 2'6" too, but haven't yet tried that (that's next, I think!)

 

Also, while I don't have a TV and have no intention (yet) of getting one, three days of Dorothea being up at 5am has meant these desperate times are calling for desperate measures:

 

 

 

Edited June 18, 2023 by Lacathedrale

[Lacathedrale]

Not much time on the railway recently, but here's an example of the platform heights in larger context, which do you prefer?

 

18mm

 

20mm

 

 

And close up:

 

18mm:

 

20mm:

[St Enodoc]

2 minutes ago, Lacathedrale said:

Not much time on the railway recently, but here's an example of the platform heights in larger context, which do you prefer?

 

18mm

 

20mm

 

 

And close up:

 

18mm:

 

20mm:

For your period, I prefer the 18mm.

[TJ52]

19mm as a compromise?

 

I'll get my coat ....

 

Terry

[J-Mo Arts]

A vote for the 18mm from me too!

[Annie]

I think 18mm is the best choice.

[choo1choo]

 

 

I think 18mm deffo.

[Metropolitan H]

Where is the height measured from?

 

What is the height above the top of the running rail? - I would expect the height to be 3ft (12mm) above the running rail for passenger platforms.

 

regards

Chris H

Edited June 28, 2023 by Metropolitan H

[t-b-g]

3 hours ago, Metropolitan H said:

Where is the height measured from?

 

What is the height above the top of the running rail? - I would expect the height to be 3ft (12mm) above the running rail for passenger platforms.

 

regards

Chris H

 

My thoughts too. Measure the height of the track to the top of the rail, add 12mm and that is a good height for pre-grouping times. Not all railways had platforms the same height as other companies and not all railways had all their own platforms at the same height and there are individual platforms with several different heights down their length but 12mm above rail top gives a very acceptable result.

[Compound2632]

We've been round the platform height discussion very recently...

 

3 ft absolute maximum height, at large and important stations such as this; 2 ft 6 in common enough otherwise and often less out in the sticks, down to 18 in. 

[Lacathedrale]

Well it's clearly not 20mm from the rail top as that would put it halfway up the carriage sides  - is the overall height from baseboard. The underlay and track are about 8mm - so in this case it's wither 12mm above the railhead, or 10mm.

 

Edited June 29, 2023 by Lacathedrale

[Edwardian]

8 minutes ago, Lacathedrale said:

Well it's clearly not 20mm from the rail top as that would put it halfway up the carriage sides  - is the overall height from baseboard. The underlay and track are about 8mm - so in this case it's wither 12mm above the railhead, or 10mm.

 

 

Forgive me, but height over rail tops is the meaningful measurement here.

 

Visually, 18mm looks better to me, as it looks like the right height to step down to from the upper* carriage foot-boards, however, now we know that this is 10mm or 2'6" above rail height, I will finally weigh in to recommend that option, as the more appropriate height.  

 

Here is a Brighton example, Fittleworth:

 

 

I would estimate the platform above the rail tops would be 2'6". On Castle Aching, Compound pointed out that in 1885 the Board of Trade specified that the height of the platforms above the rails should not be less than 2 feet 6 inches. Fittleworth opened in 1889. The Board of Trade recommendation only increased to 3' in, IIRC, 1902. 

 

The picture below is interesting because it shows the increase in height from the passenger platform level to that (a) required for side unloading, and (b) for end unloading. I stress that the measurements added are estimates. 

 

 

* As it's the Brighton, for 'upper' read 'only'!

[Lacathedrale]

Ok, 18mm settled upon - I've ordered some 8mm foamcore (rather than sheets of card/flexitrack in the mockup). I feel like it makes sense to have the 'complete' platform carcasses all together (i.e. end-to-end and layer-to-layer glued) and then faced with styrene and then finally placed in situ for the final top layer? I figure that a 2mm L-section glued onto the corner of the platform face/top should do the business for the stones!

[Dave Searle]

4 hours ago, Edwardian said:

The picture below is interesting because it shows the increase in height from the passenger platform level to that (a) required for side unloading, and (b) for end unloading. I stress that the measurements added are estimates. 

 

 

* As it's the Brighton, for 'upper' read 'only'!

 

Fittleworth is interesting as the "main line" is on a falling gradient (1:108 down to the left) and the loading bay is on a rising one (1:200 up to the end dock). They would have to be the same level when the bay entry point diverges from the main-line. You can see here the difference means that the rail level in the dock is almost the same height as the main platform on the left.

 

We are building Fittleworth in 2mmFS and may need working brakes!

 

Best wishes,

Dave

[burgundy]

On 15/06/2023 at 17:32, Nick Holliday said:

I’ve just been looking through the photographs I’ve taken of Brighton stations, and most had retained the brick edgings. Most notable is Tunbridge Wells West, hardly a way station. However, I can’t avow to the actual height; it looks as if it has been raised at least once in its lifetime, but it’s well within the realms of reality that the parsimonious Southern would have reused the edging bricks once the extra courses had been built. Interestingly the additional courses were not corbelled out, as might have been expected.

Can anyone suggest a simple way to reproduce a platform edge, with blue brick edging please? I assume that the bricks are laid on their sides, with the long dimension at right angles to the edge of the platform?

Best wishes 

Eric 

[Nick Holliday]

21 hours ago, burgundy said:

Can anyone suggest a simple way to reproduce a platform edge, with blue brick edging please? I assume that the bricks are laid on their sides, with the long dimension at right angles to the edge of the platform?

Best wishes 

Eric 

For my version of Fittleworth in 4mm, I cut 6mm wide strips from a sheet of plastic siding which had grooves at 2mm spacing, with additional plastic strip underneath to give the required 6” depth. I can’t find whose sheet I used, but this is something similar already prepared to give the 18” length of the brick. https://www.greenstuffworld.com/en/46-textured-sheets
Sadly it isn’t embossed with the non-slip pattern, but I don’t think that was always present. Masokits used to do an etching, but that is no longer available.

[Lacathedrale]

@Nick Holliday that sounds interesting! 6mm strips across the top edge of the platform and 2mm strips on the front seems to make a good deal of sense. Given they are flush with the vertical face of the platform sides, I think I will need to get that installed so I can butt up the brick cladding to it!

 

Not much has occurred over summer and hopefully you can all forgive me - I have lots of little jobs outstanding, not least finishing those carriages off and deciding on a coupling mechanism to use going forward. I had thought about 3-links but I'm not sure my arm can easily reach over to the rear platform to uncouple - particularly if there's another train in the middle platform - so I may need to revert to another solution :( 

Edited September 1, 2023 by Lacathedrale

[Lacathedrale]

A few more platform carcasses have gone down, and now I'm thinking about the headshunt for the loop. I had originally thought it might be a nice loading dock for vans/etc. - but strictly speaking the level should be at solebar height, and when I do so it really does seem to dominate the front of the scene and blocks quite a bit of the trackwork from a normal viewing height:

 

 

By comparison, with it 5mm lower I think it looks a bit more natural, even if it's not 'proper':

 

 

I think as a compromise I may run the carriage siding (which you can see in the foreground) longer and terminate it into an end-loading dock, with a short ramp on the tip of the platform? That should give some height variation and purpose without obscuring the 'fun bit' ?