Hornby Points - Sticking Problem

[latestarter]

I've had a problem with Hornby standard points, in one way or another, since I started my layout 8 months ago. However, there is one particular set of LH points that is causing most of my locos to stick on them, at slow speeds. The only loco (including Hornby, Bachmann and Dapol) that doesn't stick is the tiny Hornby Ruston shunter.

 

I have tried several remedies, including making sure the track is dead level with washers and rubbing down parts of the plastic frog (see photos). Sometimes (the same) loco will pass very slowly both ways, but then forwards but not backwards, and then, on other occasions, not at all.
 

1) Could it be the plastic channel at the closest rail in the photo?
 

2) Would it be a real problem to remove and replace that point in the layout, as I have it now? If not, could I replace it with a straight?
 

Ignore the missing rail in the close up image. It fell off yesterday, but the function of the point has not changed, for the better or worse.

Thanks for any suggestions.

[DCB]

Does the loco stop because it loses contact or because it shorts out.   Put two locos on the track, if both stall its a short. if one stops and the other keeps going its lost contact.

I suspect its the missing rail allowing the narrow to gauge Lima and heritage Hornby locos to hit the end of the diverging rail due to the DCC clip.  It will be a right sod to replace the point, dremel the fishplates at the toe end with a slitting disc to extract the point, with luck if you lift the toe the heel fishplates will wangle clear and  prepare to lay the new one by removing the Hornby fixed fishplate,  and use  streamline fishplates cut down  so they can slide back under the rail ends of the STRAIGHT at the toe end, may need several chairs trimmed back to clear. 

 

I suspect the back to back of the heritage Lima and Hornby locos is too tight, 14.2 is about as tight as you can generally get away with on modern 2010 on track.  You can ease it out but it's a massive fiddle, as you get excessive side play and the the Lima gears then disengage and strip.

 

I would have used Peco Streamline 2ft radius points and hacksawed  a bit off the end to fit myself....

Edited July 5, 2022 by DCB

[john new]

I had a similar problem with a Hornby point and the moulded check rail. Cut mine off and replaced it with a home made one cut from scrap rail. This is the relevant post but like with so many other posts the images are pending a reload. with the images now reinserted.

 

Edited July 5, 2022 by john new
Text updated as the images reloaded to linked post.

[latestarter]

53 minutes ago, DCB said:

Does the loco stop because it loses contact or because it shorts out.   Put two locos on the track, if both stall its a short. if one stops and the other keeps going its lost contact.

I suspect its the missing rail allowing the narrow to gauge Lima and heritage Hornby locos to hit the end of the diverging rail due to the DCC clip.

 

 

Thanks for the suggestions! I don't have a 'heritage Lima' (I think you saw the weathered Bachmann Ivatt). I put my Hornby Ruston in front of the Dapol Large Prairie (recent model, bought in Jan 22) and ran them over the point together, at the 2nd power setting on the Hornby Select controller - slow, but not dead slow. They both ran over the point without stopping backwards and forwards. I tried this 3 times with no problems. This is the puzzling issue for me; one run can be fine and the next time they stop.

[latestarter]

46 minutes ago, john new said:

I had a similar problem with a Hornby point and the moulded check rail. Cut mine off and replaced it with a home made one cut from scrap rail. This is the relevant post but like with so many other posts the images are pending a reload.

Much appreciated. I looked at your other post but, as you say in it, it will probably make more sense to me when the photos are uploaded.

[latestarter]

1 hour ago, DCB said:

It will be a right sod to replace the point, dremel the fishplates at the toe end with a slitting disc to extract the point, with luck if you lift the toe the heel fishplates will wangle clear and  prepare to lay the new one by removing the Hornby fixed fishplate,  and use  streamline fishplates cut down  so they can slide back under the rail ends of the STRAIGHT at the toe end, may need several chairs trimmed back to clear.

 

Thanks again. This is my first (ever) layout started 8 months ago at the age of 66. I knew nothing about model railways, or electrics, or making hills from bubble wrap, or static grass, or ballasting etc, etc when I started. I don't even own a Dremel. But, I like 'learning curves', so I'm going to buy one and give it a go.

 

[john new]

3 hours ago, latestarter said:

Much appreciated. I looked at your other post but, as you say in it, it will probably make more sense to me when the photos are uploaded.

Images now reinstated manually, luckily I knew exactly where the locally stored copies were.

[Pete the Elaner]

4 hours ago, latestarter said:

 

Thanks again. This is my first (ever) layout started 8 months ago at the age of 66. I knew nothing about model railways, or electrics, or making hills from bubble wrap, or static grass, or ballasting etc, etc when I started. I don't even own a Dremel. But, I like 'learning curves', so I'm going to buy one and give it a go.

 

 

That looks fantastic for a first layout. You have done a great job.

Most of us will look back at our first layout & feel we have moved on. We learn something from each one, putting it right with the next & learning something more from that.

So we have all been through such issues as you are having now. Keep up the good work.

[john new]

There were two things I actually cured -

 

1) I think the flange gap was a smidge too narrow, and I set it with a width of card that just fitted into the gap on other points.

 

2) the much more important factor that as moulded it was too short to actually guide the opposite side wheels through the point frog. The Hattons 66 was the main culprit as the lead wheel was riding up and over the pointed nose on the crossing frog and by slightly lengthening the new check rail (on the point’s straight side) that stopped the slight movement of the flange on that wheel/axle which was veering towards the curve and guided the bogie through where it was supposed to go. 

 

I am sure there should be a more elegant fix to the issue by using better points made to shallower angles/curvature but the DIY fix solved the problem - the check rail actually working to check the wheel.

 

Edited July 5, 2022 by john new
Typo spotted (missing word)

[latestarter]

3 hours ago, Pete the Elaner said:

 

That looks fantastic for a first layout. You have done a great job.

Most of us will look back at our first layout & feel we have moved on. We learn something from each one, putting it right with the next & learning something more from that.

So we have all been through such issues as you are having now. Keep up the good work.

Thank you for the great feedback - and encouragement! :)

[latestarter]

3 hours ago, john new said:

There were two things I actually cured -

 

1) I think the flange gap was a smidge too narrow, and I set it with a width of card that just fitted into the gap on other points.

 

2) the much more important factor that as moulded it was too short to actually guide the opposite side wheels through the point frog. The Hattons 66 was the main culprit as the lead wheel was riding up and over the pointed nose on the crossing frog and by slightly lengthening the new check rail (on the point’s straight side) that stopped the slight movement of the flange on that wheel/axle which was veering towards the curve and guided the bogie through where it was supposed to go. 

 

I am sure there should be a more elegant fix to the issue by using better points made to shallower angles/curvature but the DIY fix solved the problem - the check rail actually working to check the wheel.

 

 

Thanks again. I've copied this out and will have a proper read and a second look at the photos in the morning.

[RobinofLoxley]

Mr Latestarter, can I just ask if the stall happens on straight through or diversion, or both. You would expect it to be on divert but just checking. I had a related problem with setrack curved points where derailing occurred. I fixed it by glueing a piece of thin plastic to the inside of the check rail - the long one on the inside radius at the top of the picture. The plastic was cut from a yoghourt pot and its an indication of the design quality of these points that such an item could be inserted and work- you can see the gap is massive. The piece was cut a few mm longer than the check rail to help with placing.

 

Personally I wouldnt advocate removing any material as while it might help one loco it might make a problem on another. Where you coupled two locos and they went through OK, this is possible because the locos now restrict each others movement slightly. The test DCB referred to doesnt need them to be coupled (I'm ot 100% sure you did but the text suggests it).

[LimboBrit]

2 hours ago, RobinofLoxley said:

I fixed it by glueing a piece of thin plastic to the inside of the check rail - the long one on the inside radius at the top of the picture.

I applied the same trick on my previous layout that used Hornby points. Simple but effective but as you say, you'd think they would correct the design as this is a known problem.

[latestarter]

4 hours ago, RobinofLoxley said:

Mr Latestarter, can I just ask if the stall happens on straight through or diversion, or both. You would expect it to be on divert but just checking.

 

Personally I wouldnt advocate removing any material as while it might help one loco it might make a problem on another. Where you coupled two locos and they went through OK, this is possible because the locos now restrict each others movement slightly. The test DCB referred to doesnt need them to be coupled (I'm ot 100% sure you did but the text suggests it).

Hi Robin, good to hear from you again. It's happening on straight-through. I haven't tried it on diversion.

Actually, the two locos were not coupled up when I ran through through 'together'. Maybe I misunderstood the advice on that point (pun intended). I ran one after the other, at the same time, with a few inches / seconds between the first one passing through and then the other.

As mentioned, the biggest headache I have with this, is that the problem is not 'easily replicated' (as we used to say when I studied research). It doesn't happen the same way every time. Sometimes the same loco will stick completely, or stick and move or not stick at all.

Edited July 8, 2022 by latestarter

[RobinofLoxley]

Well, if its on straight through, thats a bit different as most problmes occur on divert - mostly derailing. Check how the locos go on divert compared to straight through.

 

I suggest when you run a loco over the point , if it stops, press down on the track in various places to see if that stimulates movement. If there is a poor connection somewhere it may suddenly 'make' and the loco starts. Four wheels are less vulnerable to this than six or eight, where one or more pairs may lift slightly if the track is not absolutely flat. The upper rail is more likely to show this fault as its in sections, where the lower is a single continuous piece. I had this on my previous layout and had to pack the track bed - anywhere near to baseboard joins a little bit of flexing is possibleacross the joint, not the point itself but the adjacent track section, just enough to break the circuit and stop the loco.

 

 

[latestarter]

On 08/07/2022 at 21:37, RobinofLoxley said:

I suggest when you run a loco over the point , if it stops, press down on the track in various places to see if that stimulates movement. If there is a poor connection somewhere it may suddenly 'make' and the loco starts.

 

I've just got around to testing your theory, and I reckon you're on to something! Using the first photo (in the OP) photo as a reference, the nearest rail to the camera is raised about 3 - 4mm off the baseboard. If I press on the sleepers sticking out from under the rail to the left of the plastic washer (now removed), I can get a 'stuck' loco to start up again. 

My issue is knowing exactly where and how to pin the track down. It seems to me that it needs to be lowered on that side, but presumably not too far!

[RobinofLoxley]

Pinning is essential in my book, although some people are very satisfied with just glueing the track in place. I use standard track pins, and I drill through the sleepers if necessary (1mm drill bit) so that I can press the pins into place rather than tapping them in. That is to avoid tapping the pin and suddenly its gone in too far, distorting the track, or causing damage near to point stretchers. Even with setrack elements, you can still drill xtra holes, sometimes even outside the rails if that is where they need securing. Some object to the visibility of the pin head, which happens when tapping lifts the black coating, so no tapping = black pin. Of course they often get painted in due course.

[latestarter]

1 minute ago, RobinofLoxley said:

Pinning is essential in my book, although some people are very satisfied with just glueing the track in place. I use standard track pins, and I drill through the sleepers if necessary (1mm drill bit) so that I can press the pins into place rather than tapping them in. That is to avoid tapping the pin and suddenly its gone in too far, distorting the track, or causing damage near to point stretchers. Even with setrack elements, you can still drill xtra holes, sometimes even outside the rails if that is where they need securing. Some object to the visibility of the pin head, which happens when tapping lifts the black coating, so no tapping = black pin. Of course they often get painted in due course.

Thanks again Robin. Would you believe that I bought my first dremel-like power tool last week, I've just put the thinnest bit I have on it, and drilled some holes in the sleepers outside the rails and secured them. Again, it's not perfect but most of the time the Dapol large Prairie is passing through at about 15% power.