Building a Mike Raithby 4F loco

[Nig H]

In this thread I'll describe how I built a Mike Raithby 4F. I have already made two, though a long time ago, and I cannot remember much about how I built those. I have instructions for the 3mm scale version and these helped though they are a bit vague about some stages of the build. The 3mm chassis is built using a different method to the one Mike used for 2mm scale locos, so that part of the instructions is irrelevant. The instructions also assume the builder uses a turned smokebox and boiler, with just the smokebox front, outer wrapper, and saddle rear from the etch needing to be used. I hope that my account will be useful to anyone considering building one of these kits. It will be useful to learn of alternatives to the methods I use during the build so please feel free to do so.

 

The kit was one of the first 2mm scale kits available as far as I am aware. Mike is an incredibly skilled modeller and didn't think it was necessary to include wimpy things like tabs and slots to help locate the parts. This means building the kit is a bit more difficult for us mortals. There are also some stages in the build which I think are just quite difficult, as there are on most loco kits.

 

This is where I got to after posting some pics in 'What's on your work bench'. The tender almost complete and the loco chassis also, just brake gear needing to be added.

 

 

 

 

The loco chassis with all the drawbar bits now added.

 

Nigel Hunt

Edited July 16, 2022 by Nig H
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[Nig H]

I decided to start with the footplate next. I found it was quite hard to fold up the splasher sides to right angles to the footplate. Maybe the half-etched line could have been a little wider. I'd recommend anyone doing this scored the fold line and maybe ran a triangular needle file along it too. Here is the footplate after folding the splasher sides.

 

 

Nigel Hunt

[Nig H]

I could have carried on with the footplate, the next job being the splasher tops, but I decided to do the firebox next. I have a firebox bending jig which makes forming the side curves much easier. 

 

Here's the tool. 

 

You have to mount the inner firebox layer over the pin on the top, clamp the layer with the metal bar, then form the bends round the side of the tool. As far as I can tell you cannot use the tool to form the bends in the outer layer. Instead, I then soldered the inner and outer layers together, with just a small amount of solder on the front and rear edges, making sure no solder got into the curves on the sides. I then bent the outer layer round the inner layer. Initially the inner layer bends were less than 90 degrees, so I bent the layers to right angles around a length of small radius rod. Once I was satisfied the bends matched the profile of the end pieces, I soldered these in place, then checked the firebox was square and the top level.

Here's the finished item.

 

 

The tool made this job much easier than trying to work out where the bends in the sides needed to start, then bending round suitable diameter rod. If anyone wants to use the tool, please email me at nigelhunt62@outlook.com .

 

Nigel Hunt

 

 

 

 

[Nig H]

After the firebox, I decided to tackle the smokebox/ boiler. It had to be done at some point, I suppose. I found some brass tube, diameter about 10.3mm (probably 13/32") which seemed to be about the right size when the boiler wrapper is added. The kit includes a smokebox/ boiler wrapper, and two smokebox wrappers. A problem with the two smokebox wrappers is that they need to be bent away from the lower half of the smokebox to form the sides of the saddle. This proved to be quite a challenge.

 

I rolled the wrappers between two knife handles as here.

 

 

The two smokebox wrapper were done in the same way but not full circle. 

 

Once the above wrapper was curved, I soldered it to the boiler tube. This was tinned first, and any lumps of solder smoothed over so that the wrapper was a close fit all over the tube.

 

I held the wrapper in place with clothes pegs. You can see its possible to squeeze the pegs quite tightly to squash the wrapper down onto the tube.

 

I used my antex 25w iron for all the soldering, with plenty of flux and a good dollop of solder on the iron to maximise the heat transfer. I soldered a bit at a time round the circumference, moving the peg round too, to keep the wrapper tight against the tube as I went. The assembly gets very hot and its useful to have two pegs round the boiler so you can hold everything with one peg, and move the other.

 

 

The final section to solder is where the two edges of the wrapper come together.

 

 

Here is the assembly, prior to adding the the smokebox wrappers.

 

Underneath is the smokebox front. The instructions were a bit vague about what to do the the parts on the etch. I soldered the smokebox front to the full thickness backing piece, then the saddle bottom on the inside of the smokebox front assembly. Its a good idea to check that the smokebox/ boiler assembly sits in the curve of the saddle bottom with the same amount of overhang of the smokebox front all the way round the smokebox/ boiler assembly.

 

Well, that's all for now folks.

 

Nigel Hunt

 

 

 

[Nick Mitchell]

This is good stuff, Nigel. Thanks for sharing.

I messed up soldering the boiler wrapper to the 4F I built many moons ago:

I'd coated the tube with Carr's solder paint, and used florist's wire tied round the wrapper to keep it in place.

Then the soldering itself was carried out with a kitchen blow torch.

Unfortunately, where I'd twisted the wire, it dug into the wrapper as the blow torch annealed it, and left it looking rather beaten-up.

I've used the same method on a couple of models since with more success (and the wires tied more loosely), but your way with the clothes pegs looks a lot gentler. I'll have to give it a try.

 

Will you be making up the inside valve gear components on the etch? I got those wrong on mine as well!

[Crosland]

Is this a ploy to raise interest and get the kit produced again 😀

[Sithlord75]

2 hours ago, Crosland said:

Is this a ploy to raise interest and get the kit produced again 😀

I think the art work is lost so....

 

[Chris Higgs]

6 hours ago, Sithlord75 said:

I think the art work is lost so....

 

 

There must be a load of these lurking in gloat boxes across the nation...

[Nig H]

On 19/07/2022 at 20:05, Nick Mitchell said:

This is good stuff, Nigel. Thanks for sharing.

I messed up soldering the boiler wrapper to the 4F I built many moons ago:

I'd coated the tube with Carr's solder paint, and used florist's wire tied round the wrapper to keep it in place.

Then the soldering itself was carried out with a kitchen blow torch.

Unfortunately, where I'd twisted the wire, it dug into the wrapper as the blow torch annealed it, and left it looking rather beaten-up.

I've used the same method on a couple of models since with more success (and the wires tied more loosely), but your way with the clothes pegs looks a lot gentler. I'll have to give it a try.

 

Will you be making up the inside valve gear components on the etch? I got those wrong on mine as well!

Hello Nick,

 

Thanks, and I'm sorry I cannot match the expertise of your 'Jubilee' videos. I have neither the technology nor the presentational skills for that. To solder overlay round tube, I have always used the method I've described. Most of the time it seems to work OK as long as you go round the circumference of the tube/ overlay a bit at a time, and check you haven't squeezed the overlay up and away as you move the iron round. I try to solder near to the point of contact of the peg.

 

I'm not planning on making up the inside valve gear. At my age, there are other things I'd like to do with my time. I probably have bits of the etched valve gear around if you want to have another go.

 

Nigel Hunt

[Nig H]

10 hours ago, Crosland said:

Is this a ploy to raise interest and get the kit produced again 😀

Hi Andrew,

 

No it isn't. As you know, I was told the etchers either lost or disposed of the artwork, so we cannot get anymore copies. The only source, as Chris Higgs has suggested, is members gloat boxes. I have no intention of producing an etch for the loco, though I have produced a Fowler tender, including a riveted version, and this will be available in due course. A Johnson- style 3,500 gallon riveted tender is at the same stage.

 

Nigel Hunt

[queensquare]

54 minutes ago, Nig H said:

Hi Andrew,

 

No it isn't. As you know, I was told the etchers either lost or disposed of the artwork, so we cannot get anymore copies. The only source, as Chris Higgs has suggested, is members gloat boxes. I have no intention of producing an etch for the loco, though I have produced a Fowler tender, including a riveted version, and this will be available in due course. A Johnson- style 3,500 gallon riveted tender is at the same stage.

 

Nigel Hunt

 

I have test built the Fowler  and Johnson style tender etches Nigel has produced and can confirm that both are excellent and make up very well. There were a few very minor tweaks which Nigel will be adding to the final etch. Both will prove extremely useful to MR/LMS modellers. The Johnson style tender is particularly useful as it was the most common type used on the Midland built 4Fs with many lasting into the BR period still towing them. I will be reporting more fully on these with more photos at some point after the weekend but my spare time recently has been taken up with finishing the major shed project and also organising this weekends Larkrail exhibition - where we have lots of great 2mm modelling if you can make it.

 

Jerry

 

 

 

 

 

[A. Bastow]

I'd also like to echo the messages of thanks for this thread. 

 

I managed to procure one from someone's gloat box a few months ago. I am sure this thread will help me greatly when it comes time to build it! 

 

Cheers! 

[65179]

7 hours ago, queensquare said:

 

I have test built the Fowler  and Johnson style tender etches Nigel has produced and can confirm that both are excellent and make up very well. There were a few very minor tweaks which Nigel will be adding to the final etch. Both will prove extremely useful to MR/LMS modellers. The Johnson style tender is particularly useful as it was the most common type used on the Midland built 4Fs with many lasting into the BR period still towing them. I will be reporting more fully on these with more photos at some point after the weekend but my spare time recently has been taken up with finishing the major shed project and also organising this weekends Larkrail exhibition - where we have lots of great 2mm modelling if you can make it.

 

Jerry

 

 

 

 

 

 

As this has become the LMS old standard tender thread, here is the test build for Nigel's Fowler tender with rivetted sides:

 

Simon

[Chris Higgs]

On 21/07/2022 at 18:43, 65179 said:

 

As this has become the LMS old standard tender thread, here is the test build for Nigel's Fowler tender with rivetted sides:

 

Simon

 

Are the tenders to 1:152 or 1:148 scale? I'm assuming the former, although you show one paired with a Bachmann 4F body.

 

This has probably already been announced somewhere but I haven't been paying attention lately, sorry.

 

 

Chris

[65179]

1 hour ago, Chris Higgs said:

 

Are the tenders to 1:152 or 1:148 scale? I'm assuming the former, although you show one paired with a Bachmann 4F body.

 

This has probably already been announced somewhere but I haven't been paying attention lately, sorry.

 

 

Chris

 

Hi Chris,

 

All the tenders are to 1:152.  They are all (strictly both as the rivetted sides are just an option for the Fowler tender) test etches at present, hence the lack of announcements.  Nigel was doing the MR tender that Jerry has built for the 4F anyway  but he's done the Fowler tenders because the 4F phototools no longer exist and they are useful for his 7F parts and putative LMS 2P kit. 

 

I suspect Jerry will be quite happy to pair the MR tender with a 1:148 4F without worrying too much though.

 

Simon

[Chris Higgs]

18 minutes ago, 65179 said:

 

Hi Chris,

 

All the tenders are to 1:152.  They are all (strictly both as the rivetted sides are just an option for the Fowler tender) test etches at present, hence the lack of announcements.  Nigel was doing the MR tender that Jerry has built for the 4F anyway  but he's done the Fowler tenders because the 4F phototools no longer exist and they are useful for his 7F parts and putative LMS 2P kit. 

 

I suspect Jerry will be quite happy to pair the MR tender with a 1:148 4F without worrying too much though.

 

Simon

 

Oh OK. I am thinking of actually finishing one of my own 8F kits, and I could pair it with a Fowler tender rather than the more normal Stanier 4000 gallon ones.

 

Any thoughts Nigel on doing sides for the high-sided Fowler tenders, as I think they were basically just higher side sheets?

 

Chris 

 

[Nig H]

1 hour ago, Chris Higgs said:

 

Oh OK. I am thinking of actually finishing one of my own 8F kits, and I could pair it with a Fowler tender rather than the more normal Stanier 4000 gallon ones.

 

Any thoughts Nigel on doing sides for the high-sided Fowler tenders, as I think they were basically just higher side sheets?

 

Chris 

 

Hello Chris,

 

As Simon said, the tenders are all 2mm scale, and at the test etch stage. I will get production versions organised soon. I did have a look at the high-sided Fowler tenders a while back, but I'm not very interested in doing that variant currently.

 

Nigel Hunt

[Nig H]

Anyway,

 

Back to the build. Things seem to have got slightly out of sequence in that once the boiler/ smokebox wrapper has been soldered to the tube, the latter needs to be filed to length level with the wrapper. Its probably better to do this on a lathe but I used a saw and needle files instead. You need to be careful to get the ends of the tube flat and level all round, otherwise you might have problems getting the smokebox front and firebox square to the smokebox/ boiler assembly.

Checking the boiler is level.

 

The next step was adding the two smokebox layers. You can use the holes in the etches to get the positioning right. These were soldered to the smokebox with the help of pegs as before. The instructions refer to bending the bottom ends of the outer layer at a line of rivets to match the saddle under the smokebox. The inner layer is not mentioned as I think it is not used in the 3mm scale version. I tried this but it didn't seem to work all that well for me, and there was also the inner layer to deal with. In the end I soldered the inner layer to the smokebox, from just below the centreline on one side all the way round to just below the centreline on the other side. I then folded the loose ends of the wrapper away from the smokebox starting about where the vertical sides of the saddle would start. Next I added the outer wrapper in the same way. I scribbed a line down the centre of the smokebox front and used this as a guide to solder it to the smokebox. I used this to line up the bottom edge of the saddle rear, and solder this in place about level with the rear end of the wrappers. I could now force the wrappers tight against the smokebox and into the transition between the smokebox and saddle. I used a peg and a thin wooden skewer as below whilst soldering the wrappers in place. Its best to do a bit at a time and check that the wrapper isn't coming away from the smokebox further round. 

 

 

Next step will be adding bits to the footplate.

 

Nigel Hunt

 

 

[queensquare]

On 23/07/2022 at 10:34, Chris Higgs said:

 

Are the tenders to 1:152 or 1:148 scale? I'm assuming the former, although you show one paired with a Bachmann 4F body.

 

This has probably already been announced somewhere but I haven't been paying attention lately, sorry.

 

 

Chris

 

Bit late answering as I have been busy with Larkrail but as others have said the tenders are 1;152. I posed the part built one in the picture alongside a Farish body to see if it would work visually being to very slightly different scales. Everyone will have to make their own mind up but as Simon rightly guessed I'm happy that they look fine. What I do need to work out is how to couple the replacement tender to the Farish 4F whilst still taking advantage of the weighted tender bearing on the back of the loco.

What does need changing on the Farish loco is the dome and safety valves for my early period.

 

Jerry

 

[Nig H]

The bits I needed to add to the footplate were the buffer beam, valances, splasher tops and the dummy frame bits.

 

I curved the splasher tops between the knife handles shown before. I had to squash them slightly to get the curve the same as the splasher sides. I also filed a chamfer on the underside of the openings in the footplate to reduce the gap between the splasher tops and footplate.

 

At this stage I should have trimmed the splasher sides level with the tops (there were some small differences in height), and cleaned up the excess solder. I didn't do this until fixing the dummy frames in place and these got in the way a bit. Next I filed the bottom ends of the splashers flush with the underside of the footplate.

 

I then added the buffer beam and overlay. This fitted first time despite the comment about fettling in the 3mm instructions.

 

Next step was the valances. I added the corner plates to the valances and filed the plates flush with the front end of the valances. No! The plates need to be left to cover the edge of the buffer beam, and that also helps position the valances.

Trying to hold the valances in place while soldering them to the footplate. As often its best to do a bit at a time and check they are going on level and square. Bits of rocket stick proving useful again.

 

Well, tarra a bit.

 

Nigel Hunt 

 

 

 

 

 

[65179]

49 minutes ago, Nig H said:

The bits I needed to add to the footplate were the buffer beam, valances, splasher tops and the dummy frame bits.

 

I curved the splasher tops between the knife handles shown before. I had to squash them slightly to get the curve the same as the splasher sides. I also filed a chamfer on the underside of the openings in the footplate to reduce the gap between the splasher tops and footplate.

 

At this stage I should have trimmed the splasher sides level with the tops (there were some small differences in height), and cleaned up the excess solder. I didn't do this until fixing the dummy frames in place and these got in the way a bit. Next I filed the bottom ends of the splashers flush with the underside of the footplate.

 

I then added the buffer beam and overlay. This fitted first time despite the comment about fettling in the 3mm instructions.

 

Next step was the valances. I added the corner plates to the valances and filed the plates flush with the front end of the valances. No! The plates need to be left to cover the edge of the buffer beam, and that also helps position the valances.

Trying to hold the valances in place while soldering them to the footplate. As often its best to do a bit at a time and check they are going on level and square. Bits of rocket stick proving useful again.

 

Well, tarra a bit.

 

Nigel Hunt 

 

Neat work Nigel. I'd be incapable of keeping that running plate level if I added the valances after doing the splashers etc like you have. On my third attempt (no.1 was a banana and no.2 had some lovely ripples because I tried adding the valance before folding up the splashers) I folded up the slasher sides, then did the bufferbeam, then valances, then splasher tops and frame tops. Finally adding the dragbeam pieces much later.

 

By the way, you had it right with filing back the plates on the valances. On the Raithby etch these are too long as they don't take account of the fact that the valance fits behind the bufferbeam. See here for example where the end of the bufferbeam is visible (from the Warwickshire Railways site):

 

 

This photo also helpfully shows the relationship of front frame extensions and smokebox front - something tricky to get just right with the Raithby etch. It also illustrates that extended front and rear coalplates are needed for anyone looking to produce one of the ex-Jubilee high sided Fowler tenders that Chris referred to.

 

Simon

Edited July 26, 2022 by 65179
Changed picture and additional comments

[queensquare]

16 hours ago, 65179 said:

 

Neat work Nigel. I'd be incapable of keeping that running plate level if I added the valances after doing the splashers etc like you have. On my third attempt (no.1 was a banana and no.2 had some lovely ripples because I tried adding the valance before folding up the splashers) I folded up the slasher sides, then did the bufferbeam, then valances, then splasher tops and frame tops. Finally adding the dragbeam pieces much later.

 

By the way, you had it right with filing back the plates on the valances. On the Raithby etch these are too long as they don't take account of the fact that the valance fits behind the bufferbeam. See here for example where the end of the bufferbeam is visible (from the Warwickshire Railways site):

 

 

This photo also helpfully shows the relationship of front frame extensions and smokebox front - something tricky to get just right with the Raithby etch. It also illustrates that extended front and rear coalplates are needed for anyone looking to produce one of the ex-Jubilee high sided Fowler tenders that Chris referred to.

 

Simon

 

Thats a seriously ugly tender!

 

Jerry

[Nig H]

16 hours ago, 65179 said:

 

Neat work Nigel. I'd be incapable of keeping that running plate level if I added the valances after doing the splashers etc like you have. On my third attempt (no.1 was a banana and no.2 had some lovely ripples because I tried adding the valance before folding up the splashers) I folded up the slasher sides, then did the bufferbeam, then valances, then splasher tops and frame tops. Finally adding the dragbeam pieces much later.

 

By the way, you had it right with filing back the plates on the valances. On the Raithby etch these are too long as they don't take account of the fact that the valance fits behind the bufferbeam. See here for example where the end of the bufferbeam is visible (from the Warwickshire Railways site):

 

 

This photo also helpfully shows the relationship of front frame extensions and smokebox front - something tricky to get just right with the Raithby etch. It also illustrates that extended front and rear coalplates are needed for anyone looking to produce one of the ex-Jubilee high sided Fowler tenders that Chris referred to.

 

Simon

Hello Simon,

 

Thanks for this. It shows there's often more than one way to put kits together, some ways better than others. I'd convinced myself that the corner plate overlapped the end of the buffer beam but your pic of 44604 and some in the Wild Swan book show the buffer beam end exposed. Ideally I should have taken a smidgen off each end of the buffer beam backing piece, with the corner piece butting up to the buffer beam overlay, and over the backing piece. I calculate the real buffer beam to be 0.19mm thick in 2mm against the overlay thickness of 0.125mm, so about as close to scale as you can get. However, its done now and I don't want to change it again.

 

I think the smokebox front plate on my model is slightly proud of the wrapper. I tried to squeeze the front down, but its gone as far as it can go. I'm keeping my fingers crossed that when the smokebox is positioned as shown in you pic relative to the frame, I don't end up with a gap between the rear end of the boiler and the firebox front.

 

Nigel Hunt

 

[Caley Jim]

1 hour ago, queensquare said:

Thats a seriously ugly tender!

Looks like there more space for coal than water!

 

Jim

[Chris Higgs]

7 hours ago, Caley Jim said:

Looks like there more space for coal than water!

 

Jim

 

7 tons to be precise. The same as the (also rare) Stanier 3500 gallon tenders, for which Nigel does an etch. They looked slightly better behind the Jubilees they were originally built for.

 

The story is told in Model Railways for Jan 1974.

 

Chris