Train Heating

[Wickham Green too]

5 hours ago, Titan said:

.... the only exceptions really being class 55 and class 50. ...

Erm - now you've got me confused .... were they or weren't they ?

[Titan]

4 hours ago, Wickham Green too said:

Erm - now you've got me confused .... were they or weren't they ?

 

If you are that easily confused perhaps you should avoid commenting on subjects on which you have such little knowledge,

[slilley]

On 27/07/2022 at 16:51, KLee55 said:

How common was it for ETH fitted locos to be used on freight workings?

Plenty of examples of ETH fitted Class 47s on freight workings especially before sectorisation began to appear in the early 1980s. Certainly not uncommon for other ETH fitted locomotives to be used on freight turns as well. Much of the work done by the SR's Class 71s 73s and 74s was freight.

[Covkid]

Pretty broad time period where things gradually changed.

My memory is mostly from the late 1970s into the 1980s and SR diesels are pretty much exempt because all class 33s were ETH anyway, although 33047 had it;s ETH isolated for a while.

 

In this period the odd ETH loco worked freight.  I remember an ETH class 47 working the Brierley Hill tripper from Bescot on occasions. but this is not surprising because BS had an allocation of ETH fitted Brushes anyway. Sometimes a loco was worked to it's own "muckheap" prior to an exam and sometimes used on a local tripper prior to going into the shed.

 

Odd things happened and I remember hanging around New St one sunday morning whilst most of the Brum crowd had gone on a Scottish tour.  I forget which train it was now but possibly the 0830 New St - Manchester formed of an Oxley "half set".  At that time OY had a number of half rakes formed of aircon Mk2s and a MK2 BFK.  This particular morning the train appeared ECS from Oxley down Monument tunnel with a steaming boilered 25 heating the adjacent Mk2 BFK but stone cold "coffins behind it !!! I dived into the BFK and valued the steam as we departed via Aston and Bescot, but there was a man with orange gloves at Wolves and a big strumming Brush to replace the 25, and the fun was over.     

[Covkid]

 

[turbos]

The 1Bxx Edinburgh - Carstairs portions regularly saw no heat diesels all year round.

Link to the 6lda page on the infamous 1B29 portion that was regularly hauled by Class 26s.

 

https://6lda.wordpress.com/type-twos/the-infamous-1b29-portion/

[Titan]

Wonder how many freights were booked to have an ETH loco?  I am fairly sure that in the Early 70's there were freightliners booked for Class 50 haulage on the WCML, as the idea was that they could be used singly on overnight freights, and double headed on passenger during the day.

[rodent279]

1 hour ago, slilley said:

Plenty of examples of ETH fitted Class 47s on freight workings especially before sectorisation began to appear in the early 1980s. Certainly not uncommon for other ETH fitted locomotives to be used on freight turns as well. Much of the work done by the SR's Class 71s 73s and 74s was freight.

Not forgetting, of course, that all* AC electric locos were ETH fitted, therefore all freights booked for AC electric haulage were also by default getting ETH loco haulage. 

 

* I'm aware that later on in life, Freightliner class 86's had their ETH removed. I think some class 85's also had their ETH at least isolated on paper, if not in reality, when they were reclassified 85/1.

[Wickham Green too]

2 hours ago, Titan said:

If you are that easily confused perhaps you should avoid commenting on subjects on which you have such little knowledge,

If I remember rightly, my initial comment was the most broad-brush, un-specific, simple comment imaginable ........................................... and I hope most people greeted it with a wry smile as intended.

 

Good Night.

[Wickham Green too]

I quite clearly remember NOT specifying what those classes were ............. until speculating about the 91s - where the anticipated 'flood' of freight-hauling examples has yet to materialise.

[admiles]

On 21/07/2022 at 20:47, Wheatley said:

As well as booked summer excursions in the mid to late 80s it was not unknown for locos to haul dead DMUs in service. I have photos of Healey Mills 47s, Tinsley 37s and (if the Kingfisher was anything to go by) a Thornaby 31 hauling dead 101s and 110s around Leeds/Huddersfield/Sheffield during the 1987-89 Great Yorkshire DMU Famine before the Tupperware units took over. There's a thread on here somewhere, they were common in the NE as well. At one point one Sheffield-Leeds via Barnsley service each way was booked to go via Altofts and avoid the Castleford reverse so it could be used to trip demics collected at Sheffield and Barnsley back to Neville Hill in passenger service.

 

On one occasion a noted Huddersfield lunatic by the name of Brian Wiltshire was given a Railfreight 47 to haul a 101 with dead batteries to Sheffield. By the time they'd made up the train they were 15-20 late and Brian was entreated by a young lady via the cab window to "go for it" because she had a job interview in Sheffield. No problem, notch 7 all the way, death or glory boys. It flew past Clayton West Junction so fast that the signlaman there rang me at Penistine to ask me to give him the road over the single line to Barnsley rather than the down man as he was clearly aiming to make up time. I did, and also not only obtained a similar undertaking from Barnsley Station Jcn, but also Sheffield PSB to give him greens all the way. They were 3 late arriving in Sheffield. Our lampman, Jim,  got on at Barnsley to go to Chapletown and got in the back cab as it was full and standing. By the time it reach Chapletown it was still full but no longer standing, Jim reckoned they were doing around 9O through the dip at Wombell with all the standees having sat on the floor while coats and bags rained down on them from the overhead racks. 

 

Had a similar experience one evening with a dead 2 car 101 being hauled by a 31/1 from Peterborough to Ipswich. This driver was also very keen to get home. Some of the swaying over the fenland track (always noted for it's less than smooth ride) was memorable to say the least

[Titan]

6 hours ago, Wickham Green too said:

I quite clearly remember NOT specifying what those classes were ............. until speculating about the 91s - where the anticipated 'flood' of freight-hauling examples has yet to materialise.

 

You thought at the time that what you did not specify only covered one class - the 91's - which you later revealed to be the case in your later post.  If you specify a group that has only one member, then it is still specific even if you don't specify the actual class.  Even if you try to argue the group has more than one, it is still almost the opposite of " the most broad-brush, un-specific, simple comment imaginable"

 

Perhaps it is time to stop repeatedly demonstrating how confused and forgetful you are?

 

Or do you feel compelled to demonstrate again?

Edited July 29, 2022 by Titan

[Tim Hall]

22 hours ago, Covkid said:

Pretty broad time period where things gradually changed.

My memory is mostly from the late 1970s into the 1980s and SR diesels are pretty much exempt because all class 33s were ETH anyway, although 33047 had it;s ETH isolated for a while.

 

In this period the odd ETH loco worked freight.  I remember an ETH class 47 working the Brierley Hill tripper from Bescot on occasions. but this is not surprising because BS had an allocation of ETH fitted Brushes anyway. Sometimes a loco was worked to it's own "muckheap" prior to an exam and sometimes used on a local tripper prior to going into the shed.

 

Odd things happened and I remember hanging around New St one sunday morning whilst most of the Brum crowd had gone on a Scottish tour.  I forget which train it was now but possibly the 0830 New St - Manchester formed of an Oxley "half set".  At that time OY had a number of half rakes formed of aircon Mk2s and a MK2 BFK.  This particular morning the train appeared ECS from Oxley down Monument tunnel with a steaming boilered 25 heating the adjacent Mk2 BFK but stone cold "coffins behind it !!! I dived into the BFK and valued the steam as we departed via Aston and Bescot, but there was a man with orange gloves at Wolves and a big strumming Brush to replace the 25, and the fun was over.     

I had 33047 Exeter St D to Basingstoke 16th Feb 86, and some bashers were quite excited because it was reputed to be "no heat" at the time, and therefore not supposed to work passenger in the winter. Sadly, I can't remember whether the journey was chilly or not. I'd always thought I'd remembered it wrong about its lack of ETH, so good to see it mentioned here.

[Tim Hall]

Even BR staff used to get confused about which locos could provide ETH/ AC. (ETS these days).

Riding behind 40150 on Mk2 air cons from Preston-Blackpool North on a hot day, the bashing fraternity wedged all internal doors open and ensured all droplights were open to get a flow of air, as the 40 couldn't provide AC. The guard came round closing them again until it was pointed out quite forcibly that we would cook. He wasn't aware that the loco couldn't provide AC. 

A few weeks later, on a Salop-Whitby excursion, behind a 47/4, it was distinctly cool, and on arrival at Sheffield, a loco change ensued. The guard confidently told us that we'd warm up now...No chance, a 47/3 was provided, which never had any form of train heating.

There were doubtless 1000s of similar instances up and down the network over the years.

[balders]

57 minutes ago, Tim Hall said:

Even BR staff used to get confused about which locos could provide ETH/ AC. (ETS these days).

Riding behind 40150 on Mk2 air cons from Preston-Blackpool North on a hot day, the bashing fraternity wedged all internal doors open and ensured all droplights were open to get a flow of air, as the 40 couldn't provide AC. The guard came round closing them again until it was pointed out quite forcibly that we would cook. He wasn't aware that the loco couldn't provide AC. 

A few weeks later, on a Salop-Whitby excursion, behind a 47/4, it was distinctly cool, and on arrival at Sheffield, a loco change ensued. The guard confidently told us that we'd warm up now...No chance, a 47/3 was provided, which never had any form of train heating.

There were doubtless 1000s of similar instances up and down the network over the years.

December Adex Cov-Newcastle......cue changing the toasty class 86 at Stockport for boiler isolated 45044. Needless to say there was a very common 47/4 waiting at York. We knew it was York as we could read the station name when we scraped the ice from the compartment windows :) 

 

Regards 

 

Guy

[Wickham Green too]

Obviously Mr.Titan and I are not speaking the same language so there's no point trying to clarify matters further.

[jjb1970]

I remember in my spotting and bashing days in the 80's seeing and bashing 'NB' locomotives on passenger trains was the holy grail. At that point although it wasn't that rare, neither was it that common given the number of ETH fitted locomotives (among rail enthusiasts of the time NB was used to mean no train heating despite the fact most of the ETH locomotives didn't have boilers).

[The Stationmaster]

16 hours ago, Tim Hall said:

I had 33047 Exeter St D to Basingstoke 16th Feb 86, and some bashers were quite excited because it was reputed to be "no heat" at the time, and therefore not supposed to work passenger in the winter. Sadly, I can't remember whether the journey was chilly or not. I'd always thought I'd remembered it wrong about its lack of ETH, so good to see it mentioned here.

The interesting thing about the Class 33s on the Salisbury -Exeter route was that irrespective of it being the heating season the ETH would be turned off when leaving most stations, but especially those where a rising gradient was in the offing, and when climbing certain banks, as this was the only way to keep time.  It was also the practice of some Drivers to turn it off when trying to regain lost time.

[Fat Controller]

2 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

The interesting thing about the Class 33s on the Salisbury -Exeter route was that irrespective of it being the heating season the ETH would be turned off when leaving most stations, but especially those where a rising gradient was in the offing, and when climbing certain banks, as this was the only way to keep time.  It was also the practice of some Drivers to turn it off when trying to regain lost time.

An SNCF friend turned off the ETH on his 68000 for the departure from Dieppe Maritime; unfortunately, he forgot to turn it back on..

[Tim Hall]

8 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

The interesting thing about the Class 33s on the Salisbury -Exeter route was that irrespective of it being the heating season the ETH would be turned off when leaving most stations, but especially those where a rising gradient was in the offing, and when climbing certain banks, as this was the only way to keep time.  It was also the practice of some Drivers to turn it off when trying to regain lost time.

I think the same was true of 31s at times. 

[jjb1970]

I always found the ETH index of Class 31/4's slightly amusing as given the rather limited power of the prime mover I can't imagine there'd have been much left for propelling the train if the ETH had been at full load. Although sometimes they were double headed, I used to use the Carlisle - Hull service over the Settle and Carlisle line which was operated by double headed 31/4's for a few years.

[The Stationmaster]

3 minutes ago, jjb1970 said:

I always found the ETH index of Class 31/4's slightly amusing as given the rather limited power of the prime mover I can't imagine there'd have been much left for propelling the train if the ETH had been at full load. Although sometimes they were double headed, I used to use the Carlisle - Hull service over the Settle and Carlisle line which was operated by double headed 31/4's for a few years.

The only things I will say about the 31/4s is that they made pretty good coach pilots between Old Oak and Paddington but even in pairs they were useless working reasonable size passenger trains because they simply could not keep time.  With a Type 4 you shut off and let the speed drop in time for the 85mph PROS on the Up Main from Acton; with a pair of 31/4s you l kept teh controller wo ide open and you knew that even then they wouldn't pass the cutout sign at anything like 85 mph, you'd be lucky if even got 80 out of them. 

[Titan]

People seem to forget that class 31s are type 2s  and don't judge accordingly.  Next time you feel the need to moan about their performance why not why not reflect on how many type 2s have more power than a class 31?

[kevinlms]

1 hour ago, Titan said:

People seem to forget that class 31s are type 2s  and don't judge accordingly.  Next time you feel the need to moan about their performance why not why not reflect on how many type 2s have more power than a class 31?

No other Type 2 had ETH except for the Class 27/2, which hardly count because they had a separate diesel engine for the ETH, so that was no drain on the available traction power.

But yes, Class 30/31 appear to be Type 3's which of course is wrong.

[DY444]

4 hours ago, jjb1970 said:

I always found the ETH index of Class 31/4's slightly amusing as given the rather limited power of the prime mover I can't imagine there'd have been much left for propelling the train if the ETH had been at full load. Although sometimes they were double headed, I used to use the Carlisle - Hull service over the Settle and Carlisle line which was operated by double headed 31/4's for a few years.

 

The original conversions were done to provide a locomotive capable of preconditioning a full rake of air con stock whilst working ecs into London termini.  For that purpose they were absolutely fine.