DCC updating a Hornby Saint locomotive

[Tallpaul69]

Good Afternoon one and all,

I have a Hornby Saint class loco bought new in the 1980s but never used. I want to update it to use on my DCC layout, so can anyone advise on the following:-

 

1) Can a Hall TTS chip and speaker be fitted into the tender (the loco is tender drive) ?

Or:-

2) Can the Saint body be fitted to a Hornby 2013 loco drive Hall chassis?

Or:-

3) Any truth on the various rumours of a new Saint being produced by one of the leading manufacturers?

 

Many thanks

Paul  

[Delta_Who]

1) It's a rather low tender so I doubt it. You might find space but it would be best to put both in the front I should think
2) Highly unlikely
3) I haven't seen any. Although new Manors and Moguls are being produced if you want something similar.

[RAF96]

1. No.

[Tallpaul69]

2 hours ago, RAF96 said:

1. No.

Hi There,

I would appreciate you elaborating on your comment, please:-

What you consider impossible, others might think difficult, but not impossible!

 

Many thanks

Paul

[Going Spare]

My feeling would also be no for Hornby's decoder and speaker, but it might just depend upon which Saint you have: Clevedon Court was paired with the Collett tender so the drive unit has removable weights, the others run with the Churchward tender and the drive unit has built-in weight.   

[Tallpaul69]

15 hours ago, Going Spare said:

My feeling would also be no for Hornby's decoder and speaker, but it might just depend upon which Saint you have: Clevedon Court was paired with the Collett tender so the drive unit has removable weights, the others run with the Churchward tender and the drive unit has built-in weight.   

It's a Clevedon Court.

[Tim123]

Tender drives need as much mass as possible; removing either weight will restrict haulage capacity. Whilst the decoder may fit there will not be sufficient room for a speaker. From memory all the TTS steam speakers have round speakers and plastic sound chamber. Using the speaker without the sound chamber will result in a very tinny sound. There ought to be plenty of room in the loco boiler for a decent oblong speaker or a half spherical one - Youchoos* sells some ones designed for the smoke box / boiler. After all, it’s the end where most of the sound comes from!

 

* usual disclaimer, no connection etc

Edited July 27, 2022 by Tim123

[JSpencer]

20 hours ago, Tallpaul69 said:

It's a Clevedon Court.

 

I have one and personally would not bother. You only need to put this "toy" next to a modern day Hall class (Bachmann or Hornby) and you suddenly see how badly deformed the boiler is.

 

For DCC to work, the existing motor needs to be cut off from the current electrical pickups. On this model, it picks up on one from the loco and then returns it to the other side through the tender. Many of the old ring fields had the screw holding the carbon brush in, to create a connection between the motor and the chassis. If so, isolating that is pretty hard to do (at best).

Another problem is that electrical pick on this chassis is very bad (even by Hornby tender drive standards). So getting it to run reliably on DCC without the sound cutting out will require stay alives. Even plain soundless DCC would require stay alives ! 

 

IF by some chance both sides of the motor can use separate wires  then both of these will need to be removed.

Your best bet would be to put the chip and speaker in the loco body. A wire, one each from the loco and tender pickups respectively will need to run to the power inputs of the chip. Then 2 wires will run from the chip to the motor (so you will have 3 wires running to the tender). Two more wires then for the speaker....

There are no modern equivalent chassis for this loco.....

 

Personally, I think you are on a hiding to hell. The result will be poor as the "toy" itself is poor to start off with. You would be far better off getting the similar Hall or Grange. 

 

[didcot]

Yes it's doable but not for sound. I did one many years ago. What I did do was replace the 3 pole pancake motor/chassis for a 5 pole pancake motor/chassis. I had one from a tender drive Gordon or Henry and it swapped over no problem. I found the 5 pole version ran a bit better than the 3 pole.

I think I used a standard Hornby chip and hard wired it in. I no longer have it so can't take a picture. It's a bit tight, but smaller chips are available now. I did the tender drive 28xx as well.

[didcot]

https://support.Hornby.com/hc/en-gb/articles/360016372319-Tender-Drive-Flying-Scotsman

 

This will help 

[Tallpaul69]

8 hours ago, JSpencer said:

Personally, I think you are on a hiding to hell. The result will be poor as the "toy" itself is poor to start off with. You would be far better off getting the similar Hall or Grange. 

Fair comment, but I have examples (and more!) of all the ex GWR, LNER, LMS, and Standard steam and early diesel locos that were seen regularly (and more rarely) on the GW &GC where my layout is based, in the 1950s-60s.

So I was looking for something a little different (but plausible!) and thought to use the Saint that I already had.

 

I might have a punt at the Saint body on an early Triang/Hornby loco mounted motor combination seeing as I have both to hand.

 

Many thanks to all who responded,

Best regards

Paul

[rovex]

One problem with using an old Hall chassis will be the wheels will be too small.

I understand that some the issues with the Hornby saint is that it was based around the old Hall chassis and so repeats some of the issues that chassis created for the hall, having originally been created for an lner engine. With different wheel spacing.

I think the saint chassis has the correct sized wheels for a saint but still has the wrong spacing.

There is an old thread in the Hornby forum where I asked what was wrong with the Saint. I needed my hard hat for replies

[Tallpaul69]

Looking for alternative solutions to my "Saint" loco problem, I have seen that there occasionally white metal kits of Saints come on the market.

Doing a DCC conversion on such a loco sounds scary, so more research is called for!

Cheers

Paul 

[rovex]

Wills did a white metal kit which used the Hornby Triang chassis. So again wrong wheelbase and wheel size. 

I think it could also be built with a cast or brass chassis but then you needed wheels, motor etc.

I don't know whether you could use the wheels and axles off the new Hornby saint on an old Hornby chassis? At least then your wheels might be the right size.

Edited July 28, 2022 by rovex
Typing errors

[Going Spare]

The TTS decoder is unlikely to be able to handle the current draw of a X-series motor. 

[Delta_Who]

On 28/07/2022 at 18:59, Tallpaul69 said:

Looking for alternative solutions to my "Saint" loco problem, I have seen that there occasionally white metal kits of Saints come on the market.

Doing a DCC conversion on such a loco sounds scary, so more research is called for!

Cheers

Paul 

 

For what it's worth, I recently DCC'd an older Hornby HST. First by replacing the ringfield with a CD motor kit. And then chipping the loco (I put an 8-pin harness so I have the option for sound in future. I think your conversion for the Saint will be fairly easy. Bit exactly an abundance of those locos that are RTR, so might be a fun little project ^_^