Delivery of Raw Material to Morris Oxford/Pressed Steel factories 1950s/60s?

[D1670]

Hi All, 

 

I've read the excellent thread on here about car deliveries being taken out of Cowley works for various time periods, but can't find anything about deliveries of raw materials - particularly steel -  to the plant. For the Pressed steel plant in particular, it would appear to need volumes of steel to be delivered and in the 1950s/60s period I just can't see this volume being delivered by road. I am led to believe that it exported (to Longbridge and Crewe) Pressed Steel car bodies to be finished elsewhere, so must have had raw material delivered to make these - to at least one of the plants. I've gone through all my books on steam in Oxfordshire and can't find any reference to any specific trains - apart from a mixed train of parts from Longbridge) delivering into the works.  Could enough material have been delivered in normal mixed goods train to feed the plants? 
Hunting down any information on any GWR steel services - even around South Wales - is beating my google-fu badly. But with the location steel from the north via the former LNER/GCR could also have been a viable option. 

 

If anyone can provide any information, I would be fascinated to receive it.

 

Many thanks

Gareth

[bécasse]

I was an Oxford undergraduate in the mid-1960s and took a reasonable interest in railways even then. The obvious supply route for sheet steel would have been from the then new works in South Wales, round the curve at Didcot into Hinksey Yard, with a reversal there onto the Cowley branch. Production at the Pressed Steel/Morris works was substantial at that period suggesting a regular block train would have been needed but I have no recollection of seeing one - it would have been quite distinctive, at least loaded - which makes me think that the loaded train must have been an overnight run. I did see Evening Star standing LE at the southern end of Hinksey Yard one morning, just possibly waiting to work the empties back westward?

 

That is all surmise but it might just trigger someone else's memories, given the then production volumes the steel must have arrived by rail.

[KeithMacdonald]

I did try RMWeb's Search for "Oxford, but couldn't find what I was thinking of, so here it is again. Apologies in advance to Mods if I'm double-posting.

 

Quote

Until the recent opening of a new installation for Ford at Dagenham,Cowley was the site of the only car factory in Britain to have private sidings. Coal - 40,000 tons a year is the biggest inwards traffic, but other items in quantity include: paper, foam rubber, filters, silencers, seat frames and pressings On the outgoing side finished products that are mobile enough to be driven to Morris Cowley station are loaded by ramp on to a line of railcars-- the chassis of passenger coaches which have been boarded-over and fitted with steel channels and chucks to a British Railways design so that they ran carry four large or live small vehicles each.

 

 

Cowley Works, c.1955

 

 

https://maps.nls.uk/geo/explore/#zoom=15&lat=51.72959&lon=-1.19504&layers=11&b=1

[SED Freightman]

In more recent times when operated by the Rover Group, the body pressings for Cowley were received by road from Swindon with the latter receiving steel coil by rail.  I have no knowledge of the history of the Swindon and Cowley plants, but unless Cowley had a press shop in earlier days it would not have received bulk steel traffic, only pressings which I suspect would have been loaded in vans.

[Rivercider]

This relates to Pressed Steel Swindon, rather than Cowley, but may be relevant.

When I was working in the Bristol Area Freight Centre (1978-85) we took over responsibility for the Swindon area in the early 1980s. I remember at least some of the steel coil traffic for Pressed Steel Swindon came from South Wales, though when it started I don't know. By this time the train service pattern seemed to changed every year as the vacuum braked network declined and Speedlink took over. I think the coil originally arrived as part of a wagon load service rather than a full block train, but full train loads might well have also run.

I do remember that the wagons used were vacuum braked, and quite a variety of types including 'W' prefixed former GWR stock. Later newer air braked stock was used.

 

Here is a later example.

Passing Undy and running in to Severn Tunnel Junction yard is 37237 with 6C36 Speedlink service from Llanwern to Swindon Cocklebury, note that not all traffic will be for Swindon, 25/9/86.  

 

cheers

Edited August 12, 2022 by Rivercider
Additional info

[br2975]

My late 1980s view taken from the much lamented footbridge alongside Canton Depot, shows 37430 returning empty seel coil wagons from Swindon Cocklebury to Margam.

Edited August 12, 2022 by br2975

[MPR]

8 hours ago, SED Freightman said:

In more recent times when operated by the Rover Group, the body pressings for Cowley were received by road from Swindon with the latter receiving steel coil by rail.  I have no knowledge of the history of the Swindon and Cowley plants, but unless Cowley had a press shop in earlier days it would not have received bulk steel traffic, only pressings which I suspect would have been loaded in vans.

I visited Cowley twice in the late 1980s and there was still a press shop in operation at that time.

[The Stationmaster]

Swindon made body pressings for both Cowley and Longbridge at one time.  The Cowley pressings went by road and those to Longbridge went by rail (although it kight have been traffic which had been secured from road?).  By the 1980s the Swindon -Longbridge trains were conveying pressings on a 'just-in-time' basis with verys evere penatir es for late running and because of thos they took precedence over most passenger services on the single line section between Swindon and Kemble withs everal trains running daily.

 

Cowley definitely had a press shop back in the 1960s (and probably even earlier)  accottrding to some one I know who worked there in those days.   It might well have received steel coil from various South Wales plants over the years - when i was at Llanwern in early 1974 we definitely didn't send steel to Cowley but we supplied some for Ford at Dagenham and also some for Vauxhall at Luton.  Some might also have gone by road.  

 

Incidentally i know - according to the current owner of the vehicle  -that one South Wales works was supplying steel to Ford at Dagenham pre-war by road. using one the largest steam lorries ever built (by Sentinel) in Britain, allegedly capable pf 60mph with a full load of steel😮

[Derekl]

British Steel Llanwern sent steel coil in block trains to Honda in Swindon from 1985 or thereabouts (when the plant opened) and presumably did the same for other destinations. One of the early Honda trains was checked on arrival by Honda quality control. Some of the coils were out of spec. The tails of the coils had not been trimmed so were below spec gauge - a well known problem with coil -  as the end passes through the mill it thins out, so the tail is less than specified - it should be checked and cut off. Honda sent the whole train back, to much consternation at Llanwern - they were used to British Leyland's rather more lax approach. Needless to say, outgoing QC at Llanwern got a shot up the backside and coils were properly trimmed thereafter.

So you can run full coil trains in both directions!

[Mike_Walker]

6 minutes ago, Derekl said:

British Steel Llanwern sent steel coil in block trains to Honda in Swindon from 1985 or thereabouts (when the plant opened) and presumably did the same for other destinations. One of the early Honda trains was checked on arrival by Honda quality control. Some of the coils were out of spec. The tails of the coils had not been trimmed so were below spec gauge - a well known problem with coil -  as the end passes through the mill it thins out, so the tail is less than specified - it should be checked and cut off. Honda sent the whole train back, to much consternation at Llanwern - they were used to British Leyland's rather more lax approach. Needless to say, outgoing QC at Llanwern got a shot up the backside and coils were properly trimmed thereafter.

So you can run full coil trains in both directions!

That's interesting, so the branch from South Marston has been used for revenue services after all.  Shall have to amend what we tell visitors to Swindon Panel ! 😀

[Rivercider]

43 minutes ago, Mike_Walker said:

That's interesting, so the branch from South Marston has been used for revenue services after all.  Shall have to amend what we tell visitors to Swindon Panel ! 😀

Revenue earning services in or out of South Marston must be pretty rare. During my stints in Bristol and Westbury TOPS (1978-1985 and 1996-1999) I don't remember any at all. I see on Flickr there is a photo of 66193 leaving in 2010, the caption says the train ran each Thursday,

 

cheers 

[SM42]

Im pretty sure there were daily Longbridge- Swindon trains in the late 90s and up till Longbridge closed. 

Used to trundle through New St in the early hours

 

Of course where it went at the Swindon end  and what the maroon covered wagons carried I have no idea

 

Andy

[figworthy]

9 hours ago, Mike_Walker said:

That's interesting, so the branch from South Marston has been used for revenue services after all.  Shall have to amend what we tell visitors to Swindon Panel ! 😀

 

Didn't the Honda works have a direct connection to the GWML, or was there more than one Honda works ?

 

Adrian

[Rivercider]

1 hour ago, SM42 said:

Im pretty sure there were daily Longbridge- Swindon trains in the late 90s and up till Longbridge closed. 

Used to trundle through New St in the early hours

 

Of course where it went at the Swindon end  and what the maroon covered wagons carried I have no idea

 

Andy

The Pressed Steel plant in Swindon was on the former Highworth Branch. I must have run off dozens, probably hundreds of TOPS train lists in the 1980s and 1990s up to 1999, for services to Longbridge, first VDA, then VGAs (fitted with stillages), then the modern private owner bogie vehicles.

 

cheers  

[Mike 84C]

There was a press shop at Cowley in the early 1970's because I used to run baled scrap from there in a 32t artic tipper. It went mainly to Sheffield/Rotherham/Port Talbot. That was after BR made me redundant again!

[KeithMacdonald]

@D1670 - if you were interested in a little earlier than the 1950s/60s period, you could include Cowley airfield (or Morris Motors flying field).

 

Quote

1937, Morris Motors Ltd. began construction of 'South Works' opposite their existing car factory. During the war this factory was used for aircraft production and salvage returning to car assembly post-war. 11/09/1939 to 1946, No. 1 Civilian Repair Unit and No. 50 Maintenance Unit recovering and repairing Hurricanes and Spitfires. 1940 to 1946, No. 1 Metal Produce and Recovery Depot recycling salvaged aircraft.  1940 to /1945, de Havilland Tiger Moth production moved to Cowley from Hatfield with over 3,000 being produced. 01/04/1941 to 30/04/1943, No. 90 MU formed here. Closed in 1992 the factories were demolished 2001-02.

 

https://controltowers.co.uk/C/Cowley.html
 

Quote

 

The Metal Produce and Recovery Depot (MPRD) based at the factory and staffed mostly by local residents, salvaged parts from damaged aircraft – many of which pieces were then able to be used by Oxford’s Civilian Repair Unit (CRU)  on the same site in rebuilding ‘planes.

... Cowley branch line running between Uxbridge and West Drayton (still used by the car factory for freight) was used to transport parts for repair. What is now familiar as the BMW factory’s Garsington Lane site became known as the ‘Outpatients Department’ and the busy trucks moving aircraft parts around the site were called ‘Queen Maries/Marys’ by the workers.

 

 

https://cowley.news/general/cowley-and-the-battle-for-britain/

 

[Covkid]

On 12/08/2022 at 21:14, Rivercider said:

The Pressed Steel plant in Swindon was on the former Highworth Branch. I must have run off dozens, probably hundreds of TOPS train lists in the 1980s and 1990s up to 1999, for services to Longbridge, first VDA, then VGAs (fitted with stillages), then the modern private owner bogie vehicles.

 

cheers  

 

Do you remember import traffic through Hamworthy docks which I think sometimes went to Swindon.  IIRC they used dual braked "Coil Ts"  YTX, which may have become JTX maybe ? I remember them as short bogie coil carriers with distinctive double cradles and sheets. There was a photo upthread of some heading back to South Wales

 

Re the Longbridge - Swindon panel trains  yes Saltley drivers bread and butter. Initially single 47s and occasional 50s, the traffic became so important to RfD that they used pairs of 47s in multi with sh** off a shovel performance.  Sometimes they were allowed through New St to avoid running round 0 perhaps when the production line was running short, or whether New St bobbies needed to spot a particular engine - yes it did happen !!!

[Rivercider]

6 minutes ago, Covkid said:

 

Do you remember import traffic through Hamworthy docks which I think sometimes went to Swindon.  IIRC they used dual braked "Coil Ts"  YTX, which may have become JTX maybe ? I remember them as short bogie coil carriers with distinctive double cradles and sheets. There was a photo upthread of some heading back to South Wales

 

Re the Longbridge - Swindon panel trains  yes Saltley drivers bread and butter. Initially single 47s and occasional 50s, the traffic became so important to RfD that they used pairs of 47s in multi with sh** off a shovel performance.  Sometimes they were allowed through New St to avoid running round 0 perhaps when the production line was running short, or whether New St bobbies needed to spot a particular engine - yes it did happen !!!

I am not really familiar with the differences between the various types of coil carriers, but I do remember the train service you are thinking of. There was an out and back steel sector working from Llanwern/Severn Tunnel Junction to and from Hamworthy. It ran for a number of years, with headcodes 6O99/6V99, possibly sometimes downgraded to class 7. The routing changed over the years, and the train could convey import and export steel traffic through Hamworthy, but also traffic for Pressed Steel at Swindon, and a steel terminal in Southampton. There are a number of photos of 6V99 on Flickr,

 

cheers 

[Andy Kirkham]

On 12/08/2022 at 10:54, The Stationmaster said:

Incidentally i know - according to the current owner of the vehicle  -that one South Wales works was supplying steel to Ford at Dagenham pre-war by road. using one the largest steam lorries ever built (by Sentinel) in Britain, allegedly capable pf 60mph with a full load of steel😮

THREAD DRIFT WARNING!

Sentinel lorries were briefly used for long distance haulage of coal in Argentina http://www.railwaysofthefarsouth.co.uk/09dbuildingrfirt.html

The next difficulty was to get the coal out to an Argentinean port from whence it could be shipped north. In 1949 retired Admiral Juan A. Martin of the Argentinean Navy was quoted as saying that 'Under no circumstances would Río Turbio coal be shipped out via Puerto Natales' (1). For the first few years petrol lorries were used, consuming incidentally more energy than they actually carried and often being abandoned on the road for lack of parts to repair them!, but in 1950 they received a fleet of 'S' type undertype (ie with cylinders below the frame) steam lorries from Sentinel of Shrewsbury, England. These were the last steam lorries to be built for commercial use anywhere in the world, and one commentator suggests that the Argentine state never completed the payments for them! (8). Under the technical supervision of a Mr. McKay from the Falklands they operated in convoys of 10-15 taking 12 hours for the journey to Río Gallegos (7). They were relatively modern in design but still used a substantial proportion of their load during the 320 mile round trip and it became obvious that only a railway would do the job properly. One of the Sentinels is preserved at Río Turbio, and another lies at Lujan zoo near Buenos Aires. They were known colloquially as 'los chufi'. Recent reports suggest that some of them remained in use until 1959

[Bernard Lamb]

On 12/08/2022 at 11:18, Derekl said:

British Steel Llanwern sent steel coil in block trains to Honda in Swindon from 1985 or thereabouts (when the plant opened) and presumably did the same for other destinations. One of the early Honda trains was checked on arrival by Honda quality control. Some of the coils were out of spec. The tails of the coils had not been trimmed so were below spec gauge - a well known problem with coil -  as the end passes through the mill it thins out, so the tail is less than specified - it should be checked and cut off. Honda sent the whole train back, to much consternation at Llanwern - they were used to British Leyland's rather more lax approach. Needless to say, outgoing QC at Llanwern got a shot up the backside and coils were properly trimmed thereafter.

So you can run full coil trains in both directions!

A case of Honda not being very clever.

The best option was to specify not cut back to gauge. You then had the opportunity to check the gauge and where it was OK to use it on the intended product and where it was under gauge to cut it back and use it on other jobs. Never turn down a freeby.  Before wide coil was wrapped the outer layers were not charged for and were treated as the wrapper. Why not try to use them? We had a flying mic and so could continually check the gauge when uncoiling it. Honda probably did not. I believe that it was a unique piece of kit at the time. It was certainly more accurate than any thing else available.

You would never return steel coil to the mill. You would call the technical rep and agree that it was rejectable with him. He would get accounts to issue a credit note for the purchase price less the scrap value. You would then either use it for another job or flog it for more than the scrap price. Happy bunnys all round.

Far from British Leyland being lax Michael Edwards was very smart, as was Dimitri Comino my boss at Dexion.

Benard

 

[KeithMacdonald]

14 hours ago, Andy Kirkham said:

These were the last steam lorries to be built for commercial use anywhere in the world, and one commentator suggests that the Argentine state never completed the payments for them! (8). Under the technical supervision of a Mr. McKay from the Falklands they operated in convoys of 10-15 taking 12 hours for the journey to Río Gallegos

 

Some say this was the origins of the (in)famous Top Gear in Argentina episode. The Argentinian locals mistakenly thought Mr McKay's descendants (Clarkson & Co) had come from the Falklands to reclaim the unpayed-for Sentinal Steam Lorry. All we know is The Stig never got to set a fastest lap with it around the Top Gear test track.

[Nearholmer]

20 hours ago, Bernard Lamb said:

You would never return steel coil to the mill. You would call the technical rep and agree that it was rejectable with him. He would get accounts to issue a credit note for the purchase price less the scrap value.

Different approach though. If what comes through the door is 99.99% guaranteed ready to feed into production, you take out of the process most of the checking, most of the supporting bureaucracy of phoning the supplier, raising credit notes etc, and any operative time for trimming things and getting it into the scrap chain or other uses. And, you take buffer-storage/work-space out, because no time or space on site needs to be allowed for fiddling about with the material.

 

If they sent a train back it was probably on a “This’ll learn ‘em” basis

[Bernard Lamb]

53 minutes ago, Nearholmer said:

Different approach though. If what comes through the door is 99.99% guaranteed ready to feed into production, you take out of the process most of the checking, most of the supporting bureaucracy of phoning the supplier, raising credit notes etc, and any operative time for trimming things and getting it into the scrap chain or other uses. And, you take buffer-storage/work-space out, because no time or space on site needs to be allowed for fiddling about with the material.

 

If they sent a train back it was probably on a “This’ll learn ‘em” basis

That was not the case however.

Even though the material came with a certificate tests still had to be done and records kept for certification by various bodies. BSI for example who required 100 test samples that all had to be within a set range and you then had to calculate a certain level of standard deviations. We would do a round robin series of blind tests between various large steel makers and users to check that we were all singing off the same hymn sheet in respect of testing methods and equipment. On a production line the first couple of items would be scrap so why not use freebie material for these? As the best company in the world in our field I can assure you that we had looked at just about all options and had become pretty good at what we did. We even supplied steel and finished products for competitors to market under their own brand names so we must have been doing something right.

 

Going back to the original question. I do not remember Oxford being a major user of wide coil. As others have mentioned a large volume was brought in as pressings.

Bernard

[The Stationmaster]

3 hours ago, Bernard Lamb said:

That was not the case however.

Even though the material came with a certificate tests still had to be done and records kept for certification by various bodies. BSI for example who required 100 test samples that all had to be within a set range and you then had to calculate a certain level of standard deviations. We would do a round robin series of blind tests between various large steel makers and users to check that we were all singing off the same hymn sheet in respect of testing methods and equipment. On a production line the first couple of items would be scrap so why not use freebie material for these? As the best company in the world in our field I can assure you that we had looked at just about all options and had become pretty good at what we did. We even supplied steel and finished products for competitors to market under their own brand names so we must have been doing something right.

 

Going back to the original question. I do not remember Oxford being a major user of wide coil. As others have mentioned a large volume was brought in as pressings.

Bernard

Stuff was definitely returned to Llanwern when either Ford or Vauxhall were trying to use a new spec for rolled thickness in the early 1970s.  Llanwern were rolling the coil to match the spec but it was found to be failing when being pressed so it went back for analysis of conformance to spec and that resulted, after continuing, trials in the spec being changed in order to make the revised (thinner) steel withstand the pressing process.

[Bernard Lamb]

3 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

Stuff was definitely returned to Llanwern when either Ford or Vauxhall were trying to use a new spec for rolled thickness in the early 1970s.  Llanwern were rolling the coil to match the spec but it was found to be failing when being pressed so it went back for analysis of conformance to spec and that resulted, after continuing, trials in the spec being changed in order to make the revised (thinner) steel withstand the pressing process.

Sorry for the confusion, writing a post sometimes does not cover all circumstances. There were times when material could not be used and then it was returned. This was always an option. Now the funny bit is that I was involved in one such episode. When Vauxhall introduced a certain new model and they had this problem the rep brought me several samples of the material that they were using and also some samples of materials that he thought would be better for the job and asked me to test them. The problem was that the roof tooling needed steel with the grain running the opposite way to how roofs were usually formed. It was far cheaper to change the steel than to alter the tooling. The model involved was the......... better not put the name. 😃

 

 

Bernard