Another for the Gresley cognoscenti

[doilum]

Can anyone advise me as to the colour of the seating upholstery in the immediate pre war era. I guess first and third were different?

Current project includes a variety of 51' non corridor and 61' open and corridor stock.

Thanks in anticipation.

[doilum]

I may be able to answer my own question. A Google search took me to the LNER Encyclopedia where someone had asked a similar question seven years ago. However information welcome.

[Bucoops]

Quote

 

Quote

 

 

 

Hmm, ignore the quotes!

 

Is this any use? https://www.lnerca.org/home/wp-content/uploads/2022/05/LNER-Moquette.pdf

 

If anyone knows, it would be the LNERCA.

[31A]

Not sure whether this will help (having read the link above!) but here's the interior of a Third Open on the NYMR a few years ago.  I realise preserved vehicles aren't always 'authentic' but I think these coaches have been restored to good standards of accuracy.

 

[doilum]

Thanks. There is an open third in the queue.

[Wickham Green too]

... or on the Severn Valley : - 

 

1934 Gresley Open 3rd 43600 : Bridgnorth, two months ago today !

[Trestrol]

The First picture of LNERCA's TTO on the NYMR is Orange and Brown Moquette  used in the 1930's. It is correct for a new build TTO as it was specified on the drawings at Metro - Cammell. There is also Jazz moquette It was used in the 1938 Flying Scotsman set as well as the Elizabethan. In fact it appears in the BTF film. This is fitted to LNERCA s Thompson TK. The LNER Coach funds TTO on the SVR is Fawn Rep from the 1920's. This mostly replaced Red and Black. Both are Third class designs, there are latter designs, Tollerton and Purple Cabbages. Most designs got used in various carriages in later years as and when works were using up old stock. 

Edited September 10, 2022 by Trestrol
Corrected information

[doilum]

One source suggested that the colour of the seats helped indicate which fitst class compartments were designated  No Smoking.

Can anyone advise as to the number of such compartments in an all first coach and did third class coaches have them too?

Was the red triangle No Smoking a BR development or was it inherited from one of the big four?

[Trestrol]

Not aware of different moquette between smoking and non smoking. First class used blue moquette normally. Non smoking transfers were a "SMOKING PROHIBITED" doughnut on the windows. You can see them in the pictures above. 

[doilum]

1 hour ago, Trestrol said:

Not aware of different moquette between smoking and non smoking. First class used blue moquette normally. Non smoking transfers were a "SMOKING PROHIBITED" doughnut on the windows. You can see them in the pictures above. 

Thanks. I seem to recall the article suggested that non smoking had green upholstery.i just need to remember where I read it. Guess I will have to return to my student days and keep reference notes!

[Wickham Green too]

The British Railways No Smoking triangle seems to have evolved from one the Southern used from 1939. Each Railway would have used its own specific labelling in earlier years - sometimes including 'Smoking' as well as 'No Smoking' labels ..... earlier still, the labels would have been etched into the quarterlights as appropriate. The proportion of Non/Smoking compartments varied drastically over the years - contemporary photos will be your only guide as such things were rarely recorded on drawings - and were soon out of date !

 

Upholstery policy probably varied from Railway to Railway - but ceilings were generally white in non-smokers and soon became nicotine brown in smokers.

[doilum]

A question for those involved in preservation.  Are the no smoking stickers applied strictly as per prototype assuming that the general public understand that smoking is prohibited throughout or are they applied randomly supporting the current laws and attitudes?

Also, were ash trays (still useful for toffee wrappers) found in the non smoking compartments?

Edited September 11, 2022 by doilum

[Wickham Green too]

Looks like comprehensive coverage on the Severn Valley : -

 

1935 Gresley Open Third 52255 ; Kidderminster, 10/7/22

[Bucoops]

The Great Eastern used different colour moquette for smoking and non-smoking, at least in 1st class. On a GA I have for a composite it says:

 

1st Smoking - Crimson Buffalo (I think it says buffalo!)

1st Non-Smoking - Blue

3rd  - no differentiation between smoking and non - it just says "Railway carriage cloth"!

[doilum]

2 hours ago, Wickham Green too said:

Looks like comprehensive coverage on the Severn Valley : -

 

1935 Gresley Open Third 52255 ; Kidderminster, 10/7/22love

Love the patination of the teak and noticed that the ends are teak too. Was this the case on non corridor stock?

[Wickham Green too]

Non-gangwayed stock : "... the bodyends were finished in plain black paint after 1925." according to Michael Harris in his original Gresley's Coaches book ( David & Charles 1973 ). 

[Trestrol]

Thing is they would still be teak under the black paint. Although I think the North Norfolk Railway left the Quadart varnished teak. Fitting ashtrays is a bit of a problem as it's more of a case of having enough examples to fit. The slim up and over design were common to the LNER, LMS and GWR. Probably a standard design of N.F Ramsey of Newcastle. They supplied lots of brass fittings to railway companies. Probably not fitted in non smoking compartment stock as it was specified on the GA drawings what compartment was what. LNERCA had to temporarily fit some in one of its TTOs when it came to filming the recent Dads Army film. These were borrowed from BTK 3669.

Edited September 11, 2022 by Trestrol

[doilum]

More help please. This time with stock numbers. I have some for selected types in the Nick Campling books but could use some  pre war numbers for the 51' non gangway 8 compartment third. 3 required for this rake!

Help is appreciated greatly.

[Trestrol]

Dia 56 9' width or Dia 57 9'3" width? 

And which Section of the LNER? 

Edited September 14, 2022 by Trestrol

[doilum]

I have tracked down a copy of the Michael Harris book.

The focus of this stock building is the ECML around Selby in the immediate pre war years. I need to check the Kirk kits to be certain of diagram and width.

[Trestrol]

It will most likely be the North Eastern section so all carriage numbers will start with 2. Which Harris book have you found? Gresleys Coaches, LNER Carriages or LNER Standard Gresley Carriages? All basically the same just a progression as new information came to light. The last book does not contain any new designs introduced after 1931. 

 

[doilum]

It is the original, a first edition from 1972. Every day a school day and might need to prioritize those precious #2!

[Trestrol]

Book 3 is actually the better book as long as you don't need Gresleys later designs and Thompsons. The format is better and every diagram has a drawing. It's just a pity Michael Harris died before he did the second part. 

Edited September 15, 2022 by Trestrol
Corrected name

[doilum]

Another puzzle .

Despite having good reference books and photos, I an struggling to find a hard and fast rule regarding the fitting of foot steps to the 51' non corridor stock. Some appear to have individual steps mounted on the solebar beneath each door, others a continuous step along the full length of the coach, whilst in some photos there appears to be a total absence of footsteps. Are these variations regional by use, dependant on which works built/ maintained the coaches or dependant on time period?

All suggestions welcome.

[Bucoops]

Age and economising - when the full-length ones needed replacing, it was cheaper to put the individual ones under each door.