GWR Engine (scratch)builders - where do you begin?

[Guest WM183]

Hi folks.

I have lately spent some happy hours reading it and flipping through pages of  "A Pictorial Record of Great Western Engines, Volume Two" by Russell. This neat book shows all the famous more modern GWR power in photos and drawings. However... these drawings do not seem quite detailed enough to do an actual build from? And, as far as I can tell, there is no GWR equivalent to the wonderful "Locomotive Profiles" books for LMS/Midland engines? Nor coaching stock books either, but I digress... anyway

I have taken a photo of one of the pages of the book to show here. Would any of you more experienced builders attempt to scratch an engine from these sort of drawings? A... a lot of info seems to be missing, IMO?



Are there GWR books that do offer a similar level of detail / GA drawings to the Profiles series for the LMS? 

Thanks much,

Amanda (ITS RAINING HERE! WOO!) in the Netherlands

[drduncan]

A lot of the drawings in the Russell books are weight diagrams not general arrangement drawings I’m afraid. 
 

Yes we don’t seem to be as well served as other companies in the drawings department. You could try the OPC catalogue of drawings at the NRM search engine website but Russel used a lot of these so many of the drawings listed will be weight diagrams. 
 

I did have success getting a GA for a short cone taper boiler drawing from the GWS at Didcot. It was part of a display for Lady of Legend and was just what I needed to correct the errors in the Westward Scott Atlantic kit. 
 

Steam museum at Swindon might have some but I don’t know if they or Didcot have an online catalogue.

 

Duncan

[Tim V]

You need to get hold of some Great western Journals (Wild Swan), Nos 2 and 16 cover the 45xx. Try the bookshop Titfield Thunderbolt - they may have some back numbers.

[Camperdown]

Lots of detailed loco drawings in the early Great Western Railway Journals (see ebay).  A couple of drawings are also reproduced in the two Guy Williams books by Wild Swan (4mm Engine / More 4mm Engines).

[Guest WM183]

Thanks folks. I was afraid of that.

I do have a few issues of the GWR Journal, one which has a 5101 GA drawing in it, and another with a drawing of a Class 4 chimney. I will hunt down the issues that have the other drawings I want, I suppose. An enterprising person could make a book of such things. I've toyed with the idea of a cameo-type view of a "minories" type suburban station, and large and small prairies, a Hall or Grange, and the like would look at home there. Of course with a Pannier or two... gotta have those.

Edited September 14, 2022 by WM183

[doilum]

First question: why do you want to scratch build given the number of kits and rtr GWR locos?

If it is to scratch that itch and prove you can do it, I fully understand and good luck. In my humble opinion, GA diagrams are far too detailed for the needs of the average modeller. A good accurate side view, a couple of end views should be sufficient along with as many photographs of the specific locomotive as you can find. I have worked with far less than the information in the book above.

For a first attempt be realistic in your ambitions. Choose a straightforward prototype and aim for a chassis that runs well and a body that is neat, square and looks like the one in the drawing. Assuming you are working in 4mm consider starting with the Airfix / Dapol kit and concentrate upon building a good working mechanism in brass or nichel silver. You can then use the plastic kit to work out how to build the superstructure in metal.

Whilst there are lots of books and articles ( I am a big.fan.of Iain Rice) you could do worse than have a good study of books by John Ahern and Guy Williams bearing in mind that materials and equipment have moved on a bit in sixty years.

And, to answer the original question: with the coupling rods.

Edited September 15, 2022 by doilum
Additional information

[Guest WM183]

Hi Doilum,

I want to scratchbuild simply because I enjoy it! I am quite an experienced builder, with a good number of scratchbuilds of wagons (Both British and American) and coaches beneath my belt. While a GA may be far too detailed - and a bit confuzzling with its array of lines - I am also a machinist, and in my school years actually studied to become a draughtsman (draughtswoman in my case) so reading them is not TOO horrible. If you would perhaps give me a few tips on working from much simpler diagrams - like in Russell, for instance - I'd be much obliged.

 

I work in 7mm, if it helps.

It also helps that if i buy a brass kit, I spend several hundred pounds, still have to build it, and if I make a mess of it... I'm out several hundred pounds. Ick. If I buy a set of wheels (or make my own, as I am currently doing for an American steam loco on my lathe and mill) and some nickel silver and  brass sheet, and mess up... I still have my wheels and have messed up 30 pounds of metal. There is also the fact I live in Holland. For a 500 pound Heijan large prairie, I'd pay 150 pounds in import duties alone to get it here. 

Basically, I want to scratchbuild because 1) I like doing so, and 2) economy. The benefit of all my stock being built to a similar standard means any imperfections in my models won't be so glaringly obvious as they may be if sitting smack next to a perfect, CNC designed RTR model (and I do have two Dapol panniers, and love them!) 

I've got Iain Rice's books on loco building, as well as the new pair of works by Simon Bolton. Good reads. I do love mr Rice's style.

Thanks much!

Amanda

Edited September 15, 2022 by WM183

[Camperdown]

I can quite understand your reasoning.  For my money, weight diagrams or modeller's drawings don't cut it.  GIve me a proper, dimensioned GA every time.

 

The fact that there are lots of GW kits also helps the scratchbuilder.  Not just many types of parts available, if you don't fancy turning your own chimney (say).  But you can buy a tender kit to go behind your scratchbuilt 4-6-0.

[Guest WM183]

Williams, in "The 4mm Engine" states he uses 1mm thick NS plate for frames. Is that... that seems reeeally heavy? I suppose in 7mm, it might be ok? 

[Camperdown]

Too much like hard work, cutting out 1mm frames.  Usually I use 0.018in N/S, or sometimes 0.015in (in 4mm scale).  The prototype is normally 1in or 1.25in, which is 0.013/0.016 in in 4mm scale.  My latest build is 0.5mm tinplate, just to be a bit different.

[Guest WM183]

I was thinking .018 yeah, mostly cause that's what I have! And what Eileen's sells!! =D

[doilum]

Good to hear that you work in the senior scale and that your skill set is probably far more advanced than your original post suggested.

The accepted wisdom on frame thickness has moved in my life time along with the design of frame spacers. I think we have to thank Iain Rice and co for that. I like to work in 0.016 brass which usually comes from an American supplier in 4x10" sheets. Available at most model shops here in the UK.

Good luck and please keep us informed with your progress.

[Craigw]

Amanda,

 

I would highly recommend the Guy Williams 4mm scale loco books by Wild Swan and the Geoff Holt ones from the same source which are more attuned to 7mm scale. If you are able to use a lathe then I suspect that both books will be very useful to you.

 

Regards,

 

Craig W

[RosiesBoss]

G'day, Amanda,

 

I also enjoy modelling GWR locos and rolling stock. In particular, I like to produce models of locos for which there are no kits in my chosen scale: 4mm/ft. For many years, I have been inspired by F.J.Roche & G.G.Templar: "Building Model Locomotives" (Ian Allen, 1968), as well as the writings of Guy Williams.

 

Other references include Jim Russell's "Great Western Absorbed Locomotives" and the 13 volumes of the RCTS "Locomotives of the Great Western Railway", which provides some essential dimensions. My bookshelves groan under the weight of lots of published albums of contemporary photos. Other images regularly appear on eBay. Using a mix of weight diagrams, sketches published in modelling magazines and photos, I've built many models of obscure types, such as GWR 28, 1043, 1358 and 1376, all of which I have described in these pages from time to time.

 

I live in Sydney, Australia and am very aware of the high cost of importing kits and components from the UK, so choose to make as much of each model as I can myself or use parts found on models scrapped or discarded by others. My lathe and 3D printer come in very handy.

 

Good luck with your projects. I look forward to seeing what you create.

 

Regards,

 

Rob

 

[Guest WM183]

Hi folks.

I have the Guy Williams book "The 4mm Engine - a Scratchbuilder's Guide" and it is a godsend of goodstuff. I have been reading it again, closely, the past couple of days, and think I will start with a small 850 class pannier tank just like the one in the book, so I have a guide of sorts to follow as I build. I will probably order a couple engines' worth of wheels from Slaters, maybe enough for this engine and perhaps a small 4400 or 4500 prairie. I need to get a rivet tool yet, as I do not have one, or make one I suppose. 
 

I have a Unimat lathe / mill and a Elegoo Mars 3 printer, though I am far more adept with the former than the latter! I can perhaps make some odder bits like injectors or sandboxes with the printer and see where that leads?

All the best!

Amanda

[doilum]

Don't forget the pick ups and axle bushes whilst you are ordering from Slaters. Pannier or Prairie? A tough call as to which is a better first project. Pannier is mechanically simpler but those tanks are going to take some making, unless of course they can be 3D printed.

[Guest WM183]

I like a challenge! And I will me sure to order the extra bits, thanks for the reminder. It won't be too hard to get to 140 pounds minimum I don't think, as I need some wagon wheels too. My sole decision now is 1915 or 1960 for my GWR models... the former sure has a lot to recommend it, but man do those large prairies look *sharp* in BR Green. 

[andrewnummelin]

I'd suggest that in 7mm a pair of excellent books are those by Geoff Holt "Locomotive Modelling from scratch and etched kits - a personal approach" published by Wild Swan.

Thinking of the GWR/WR, for a first scratch built loco I'd go for something without a taper boiler or belpaire firebox so 1915 offers rather more possibilities: still you did say you like a challenge!  As for livery, going back a bit before 1915 would give something much more elegant than BR green.

Still for something a little different, why not think about GWR 196-201? I believe they were very similar to "de Bril" so you can go and look at this for details not shown on many drawings? https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/NS_700_(stoomlocomotief).

 

Beste wensen.