Is €360 a fair price for an as-new Roco re 460 'New Look' model?

[Michanglais]

I've been after one of these for ages. 

 

I have put an ad in the wanted section of this forum but yesterday came across the HAG Forum and saw they had a 'wanted' section.

 

I stated I was looking for a Roco/Marklin/Trix/HAG model (it's for display so operating system isn't important). Somebody answered almost immediately saying they had an as-new Roco version, with a new DC (Plux DCC-able) mechanism that they wanted €360 for. 

 

Now, I've seen the Roco versions go for between £125 - £200 on ebay but I'm not sure what the condition was. This guy sent me pics and it is totally untouched with all its accessories still sealed in the bag. The big advantage is, he's in Germany (I'm in France) and so I wouldn't have to pay customs and VAT if importing from Switzerland to France (or, now, the UK for that matter).

 

I've counter-offered €300. 

 

Does anyone have any idea of how rare these models really are? He claims it's very rare. To be honest, I really want the HAG one, but that would be around €450 and probably from Switzerland with all the associated charges (although I did see someone nab one for €327 on ebay.it!).

 

I  guess it just depends on how much you want something but I think his €360 is really pushing it. Even €300 is pretty generous to me for the old Roco model (compared to the more recent releases with improved glazing and separate windscreen wipers).

 

Anyone got any opinions on whether it's worth the investment?

 

Cheers,

Michael

 

 

[Allegheny1600]

Definitely NOT!

 

For that sort of money, I would expect Sound to be fitted at least.

Also, be extremely wary of people who claim the thing they are selling is rare - they almost never are truly rare as most model trains are made in their thousands.

I’m quite sure my local British dealer wouldn’t charge much more than this for a brand new Roco model, complete with sound.

Sounds to me like this guy is trying to take advantage of you.

Just be patient and save a search on eBay, one will come along in a while.

Cheers,

 John 

 

[Oldddudders]

There is no such thing as a fair price. A model - or car or camera or watch or any other consumer item - is worth to you what it is worth to you. 

[Michanglais]

16 hours ago, Allegheny1600 said:

Definitely NOT!

 

For that sort of money, I would expect Sound to be fitted at least.

Also, be extremely wary of people who claim the thing they are selling is rare - they almost never are truly rare as most model trains are made in their thousands.

I’m quite sure my local British dealer wouldn’t charge much more than this for a brand new Roco model, complete with sound.

Sounds to me like this guy is trying to take advantage of you.

Just be patient and save a search on eBay, one will come along in a while.

Cheers,

 John 

 

It is expensive for a Roco model - particularly one that hasn't got sound. It was released quite a few years ago and there's only one come up listed on a French ebay price-comparison site (that covers all ebays). It went for €275 + p&p, so maybe this is the going rate. (I've got him to include p&p from Germany, which usually comes out at €20 so it's pretty much the same price.) Oh, yes, and he reluctantly accepted the drop to €300 inc p&p.

 

That being said, it's got a brand new mechanism in it - it was an AC model, for which he would have paid more - but he has put a 2021 DC mechanism in it with Plux 22 decoder socket. I really wanted the HAG version but they really are like gold dust. I think what I may do is buy this one while I can (particularly as it will be from Germany so no customs/VAT) and just keep my eye out for the HAG version. If one comes up at less than €500 I would go for that, then sell on the Roco one for as much as I can get for it. After all, it'll bring me pleasure in the meantime, even if I can't get €300 back for it.

 

Decisions, decisions...

 

 

[Allegheny1600]

Yes, I believe it came out around 2009 so there are unlikely to be many hiding away in the dark cupboards of model shops across S, D, A, EU.

 

 I have to ask, if it’s for your display cabinet, does the newer mechanism really add anything? Was it a simple bodyshell change or was it more involved?

 

Finally, I have seen the prices asked for the HAG models - OUCH!! Having seen a couple of HAG models up close - really?? They might be all metal but they’re pretty crude.

[Michanglais]

19 minutes ago, Allegheny1600 said:

Yes, I believe it came out around 2009 so there are unlikely to be many hiding away in the dark cupboards of model shops across S, D, A, EU.

 

 I have to ask, if it’s for your display cabinet, does the newer mechanism really add anything? Was it a simple bodyshell change or was it more involved?

 

Finally, I have seen the prices asked for the HAG models - OUCH!! Having seen a couple of HAG models up close - really?? They might be all metal but they’re pretty crude.

It's for display, so the new mechanism isn't of much interest to me, tho it might be useful if I decided to re-sell it.

 

I actually collect HAG re 460s and, in this case, the HAG model is superior by far. They also tend to hold/increase value.

 

As it happens, I've just done a search on picclick.com and Rails of Sheffield (UK) have got one in at £168 but they don't say they offer interational shipping, which kinda surprises me. I've dropped them a line anyway. With the conversion that comes out to €190 + I guess €20 p&p. Then there's just the question of whether it gets caught in customs, or not. I've had two deliveries of the same value-ish from the UK recently and only one got caught. Had to pay €44 in fees. So it's just the luck of the draw. I have to say, I'd feel happier buying from a reknowned dealer than a random stranger and having PayPal coverage rather than just making a bank transfer.

 

I'll just have to see what Rails come back with. (That being said, it may still be cheaper to get a friend in the UK to buy it for me and then send it on).

[Allegheny1600]

Hi Michael,

Try Marno - still in the UK but cheaper than Rails (who are usually very overpriced on their H0 stuff).

http://www.marnoltd.co.uk/stocklist_Secondhand.pdf

Good luck,

 John 

 

Roco 62699 £125

Edited September 20, 2022 by Allegheny1600
Add info

[Michanglais]

8 minutes ago, Allegheny1600 said:

Hi Michael,

Try Marno - still in the UK but cheaper than Rails (who are usually very overpriced on their H0 stuff).

http://www.marnoltd.co.uk/stocklist_Secondhand.pdf

Good luck,

 John 

 

Roco 62699 £125

Hi John,

 

Thanks for that. Would you believe, I actually did enquire about the one Marno had available just this weekend. Unfortunately, it's gone now.

 

I'm having ebay issues, anyway. I got a message saying that my offer had been accepted by Rails, so I clicked to buy and was asked to pay up. But it included an additional VAT amount of £26! I would have thought it should have been VAT reduced as it's leaving the UK. It's up to the French customs to collect the VAT. Whatever the case, I've had to send Rails a message demanding the real total because it wouldn't let me pay as postage hadn't been set. At least in the meantime no one else can buy it (there were 11 other watchers).

 

Fun, huh?!

 

[Erichill16]

1 hour ago, Allegheny1600 said:

Yes, I believe it came out around 2009 so there are unlikely to be many hiding away in the dark cupboards of model shops across S, D, A, EU.

 

I remember once arriving at Interlaken Ost and popping my head  in at the model shop on the way to the hotel. I spotted on the shelf a Lemaco Ae6/6 which must have been nearly10 years old. I went next day credit card in hand. Couldnt see it asked if it had been moved, no it had been sold. ! 

[Michanglais]

11 minutes ago, Erichill16 said:

I remember once arriving at Interlaken Ost and popping my head  in at the model shop on the way to the hotel. I spotted on the shelf a Lemaco Ae6/6 which must have been nearly10 years old. I went next day credit card in hand. Couldnt see it asked if it had been moved, no it had been sold. ! 

How frustrating!

[icn]

1 hour ago, Michanglais said:

I'm having ebay issues, anyway. I got a message saying that my offer had been accepted by Rails, so I clicked to buy and was asked to pay up. But it included an additional VAT amount of £26! I would have thought it should have been VAT reduced as it's leaving the UK. It's up to the French customs to collect the VAT. Whatever the case, I've had to send Rails a message demanding the real total because it wouldn't let me pay as postage hadn't been set. At least in the meantime no one else can buy it (there were 11 other watchers).

 

The situation is not as simple as you state. Most likely Ebay is collecting French VAT, which they pay using the IOSS system - which is in fact documented here: https://www.ebay.com/help/selling/selling/vat-obligations-eu?id=4650

 

So the only question remaining is: what about UK VAT? I presume that Rails do charge VAT on UK orders, so it should really be deducted from the original price prior to applying French VAT. But perhaps they don't want to do so (it's legal but distinctly anti-consumer, as long as they don't lie about it), or perhaps they've misconfigured their Ebay listing, or perhaps the listing already excluded British VAT.

 

// EDIT: I've looked at some other Rails listing on ebay, and they only claim to send to the UK. So the second suggestion seems the most likely - they simply haven't configured their listings appropriately. But things may be even more complex than that - this is a used item, therefore subject to the VAT margin scheme in the UK. In other words, the domestic VAT charged for this item will be less than the UK 20% VAT rate, so there's obviously less than 20% to deduct when selling overseas. The Ebay documentation doesn't appear to even attempt to cover such complex cases, so it's probably fair enough for Rails to simply avoid the topic and charge the same price everywhere: https://export.ebay.com/en/fees-and-payments/taxes-and-accounting/uk-vat/

 

// EDIT 2: and more likely they'll be using the Global accounting VAT margin scheme as opposed to the normal version, but that makes it near impossible to figure out what the actual tax would've been for any single item. Far easiest to just set a single global price.

Edited September 20, 2022 by icn

[Michanglais]

40 minutes ago, icn said:

 

The situation is not as simple as you state. Most likely Ebay is collecting French VAT, which they pay using the IOSS system - which is in fact documented here: https://www.ebay.com/help/selling/selling/vat-obligations-eu?id=4650

 

So the only question remaining is: what about UK VAT? I presume that Rails do charge VAT on UK orders, so it should really be deducted from the original price prior to applying French VAT. But perhaps they don't want to do so (it's legal but distinctly anti-consumer, as long as they don't lie about it), or perhaps they've misconfigured their Ebay listing, or perhaps the listing already excluded British VAT.

 

// EDIT: I've looked at some other Rails listing on ebay, and they only claim to send to the UK. So the second suggestion seems the most likely - they simply haven't configured their listings appropriately. But things may be even more complex than that - this is a used item, therefore subject to the VAT margin scheme in the UK. In other words, the domestic VAT charged for this item will be less than the UK 20% VAT rate, so there's obviously less than 20% to deduct when selling overseas. The Ebay documentation doesn't appear to even attempt to cover such complex cases, so it's probably fair enough for Rails to simply avoid the topic and charge the same price everywhere: https://export.ebay.com/en/fees-and-payments/taxes-and-accounting/uk-vat/

 

// EDIT 2: and more likely they'll be using the Global accounting VAT margin scheme as opposed to the normal version, but that makes it near impossible to figure out what the actual tax would've been for any single item. Far easiest to just set a single global price.

 

Interesting...

 

Anyway, it's all sorted now. As you say, ebay have collected the French VAT but Rails have not deducted the UK VAT. 

 

It's annoying to be paying VAT twice but at the same time, I've saved €100 over the asking price of the Swiss seller, I've got the ebay/PayPal guarantees, a confirmed delivery date and also the option to return should I not like what I receive. I'm much happier about this. Also, should I ever want to sell the loco, purists might prefer that it has the original chassis and not a replacement one (even if the mechanism was more up-to-date). On top of which, the Swiss seller admitted the loco's box was tatty, whereas the Rails one is in pristine condition. This should all come in handy should I ever be able to get my hands on a HAG re 460 New Look and want to sell the Roco one.

 

In some ways it takes a bit of the fun away, tho. In the past I used to order quite a lot of stuff from ebay USA and nine times out of ten stuff didn't get stopped by French customs and I got some real bargains. Still, at least I won't have any nasty surprises when it does get here...

 

 

 

 

[Gordonwis]

I don't think Rails is too bothered about selling overseas hence the lack of effort to cater for it.

[icn]

On 20/09/2022 at 16:33, Michanglais said:

 

In some ways it takes a bit of the fun away, tho. In the past I used to order quite a lot of stuff from ebay USA and nine times out of ten stuff didn't get stopped by French customs and I got some real bargains. Still, at least I won't have any nasty surprises when it does get here...

I've come across even commercial sellers in the US committing customs fraud, but I'm not a huge fan of the practice. In some countries it leads to delays when customs notice the obvious wrongful declaration, it's never happened to me but ...

 

Back to Rails: I tested their website, and it does deduct British VAT (to the tune of 20% even for used items) when checking out - but it also looks like they don't charge the destination VAT for such sales. So the lack of UK VAT deduction seems to be specific to their Ebay channel (and Ebay also forces the use of IOSS but with Ebay taking care of the paperwork for it). It could be worth asking them about it.