Kirtley 700 class double framed goods 4mm

[k22009]

With a gentle nudge from @lezz01 and after he had kindly sent over some information the next project has appeared on the bench. A Kirtley 700 class double frame goods. 

 

There were a myriad of variations to this class, with alternate boilers, smokeboxes, valve positions, ejectors, sanding levers, cabs, tenders and just to round it off even differences between manufacturers.

 

So after digesting the info contained within the invaluable Midland Engines #4 by Dave Hunt, Bob Essery and Fred James i decided to base the model on a B boiler version with options for both Johnson and Deeley smokeboxes, there is also an option to model the Neilson variant with the additional webs in the outer frames as an overlay. Tender is the Kirtley horseshoe 2000 gallon with the shorter frames at the rear.

Inside motion has also been included with alternate motion brackets, it may partially work however there are no offset cranks for the connecting rods but the eccentrics have etches to enable them to operate (in theory anyway and maybe for someone with better eyesight than me) but on this one it will be just cosmetic. The only drawback with inside motion is that it makes compensation difficult especially in OO where room at the sides of the motion is non existent. 

 

 

The etches, chassis and motion in Nickel Silver and the body in brass.

 

 

After inspecting the etches there are already small things that i can see need slight tweeking, however on with the build.

 

[lezz01]

Oh happy happy days!!!

Regards Lez.

[Camperdown]

Looking forward to reading this?  Where did you source of the etchings, and what's your plan for boiler fittings, etc?

 

(Asking on behalf of a friend.  I realise the answer may be in another thread but it would help if there was a link or some background here.)

[k22009]

15 minutes ago, Camperdown said:

Looking forward to reading this?  Where did you source of the etchings, and what's your plan for boiler fittings, etc?

 

(Asking on behalf of a friend.  I realise the answer may be in another thread but it would help if there was a link or some background here.)

 

The etches are my own design, fittings are available from Colin at Gibson's or Andrew at Wizard. 

[Mrkirtley800]

If you have a source of Johnson 3’4”. chimneys in 4mm, will you please let me know.  All the ones I have found so far have not been the lovely graceful ones that were fitted in Johnson’s time.

The only exception was the cast white metal ones by K’s, which came with their ‘single’ kit.  I bought a fair few of these before the K’ s stopped making them, but have now run out.

Good luck with the ‘700’.  I have two Kirtley goods, one a K’s kit bought for me in 1966, the other a Jidenco offering, which required quite a bit of scratch building.

Derek

Edited September 28, 2022 by Mrkirtley800

[k22009]

4 minutes ago, Mrkirtley800 said:

If you have a source of Johnson 3’4”. chimneys in 4mm, will you please let me know.  All the ones I have found so far have not been the lovely graceful ones that were fitted in Johnson’s time.

The only exception was the cast white metal ones by K’s, which came with their ‘single’ kit.  I bought a fair few of these before the K’ s stopped making them, but have now run out.

Good luck with the ‘700’.  I have two Kirtley goods, one a K’s kit bought for me in 1966, the other a Jidenco offering, which required quite a bit of scratch building.

Derek

 

Hi Derek, part 4M614 at Alan Gibsons is for the lost wax Johnson 3'-4 chimney. I believe Craftsman also did a white metal Johnson chimney but unfortunately not available now unless someone has a stash. Colin also does various Deeley chimneys, MR and Johnson domes, safety cover etc

I guess as more suppliers fall by the wayside the future is in getting these parts 3d printed, beyond my skills i'm afraid but i'm sure there may be members with the necessary skills to produce these.   

[lezz01]

1 hour ago, Mrkirtley800 said:

If you have a source of Johnson 3’4”. chimneys in 4mm, will you please let me know.  All the ones I have found so far have not been the lovely graceful ones that were fitted in Johnson’s time.

The only exception was the cast white metal ones by K’s, which came with their ‘single’ kit.  I bought a fair few of these before the K’ s stopped making them, but have now run out.

Good luck with the ‘700’.  I have two Kirtley goods, one a K’s kit bought for me in 1966, the other a Jidenco offering, which required quite a bit of scratch building.

Derek

I may have some in stock Derek. I usually build locos in Deeley condition so I might have some Johnson chimneys in stock. I'll go through my stock of kits and see what I have and PM you if I have any.

Regards Lez.

[uax6]

Derek, It might be worth contacting NU-Cast partners. I'm not sure if the K's single went to Nu-cast, but if it did, Dave might be able to find the kit and spin you some of the chimneys. The moulds might be a bit tired, so there might be some flash....

 

Andy G 

Edited September 29, 2022 by uax6

[lezz01]

Nu-Cast have recently re-issued the 700 class DF Goods. I also believe that they have refurbished the moulds. There was one on ebay recently and the photos showed very little in the way of flash. The biggest problem with the K's/Nucast kit is that it is so heavy that it creates it's own gravity and the edges of the castings are very thick so it requires lots of work to make an acceptable model. The only option until now is the Falcon brass/jedenco offering which is truly awful. The inner chassis doesn't match the outer frames and it's the outer frame that is incorrect. I tried to build one years ago and failed as the compromises necessary to get a running model were not acceptable to me. The promised LRM kit has never happened and has remained just a rumour for over 20 years which is why I asked Dave if he would have a go at it.         

Regards Lez.

[k22009]

I've started with the tender and with these locos they have prominent springs over all of the wheels, as i don't have access to any castings for these i decided to etch them from 5 parts 2 outer with half etched relief and the inner 3 full thickness. They are quite small to assemble and laminate all together but with each one aligned and clamped in the vice they succumbed to the soldering iron.

 

 

I also decided to make the tank as a removable section with itys own base that can be screwed to the tender footplate. Stiffeners provide something solid to solder the sides and the horseshoe coal space, they also form the underside of the tank top. 

 

 

I soldered the coal rail to the tender sides before forming as i find it's easier that way, the coal rail slopes from the front to the rear very slightly so you need to avoid the temptation to keep the top level. The fingers at the external corners are no where near man enough and needed a bit of filling with solder before filing down to shape, so they will need beefing up on the next version. the radius at the corners varied from manufacturer to manufacture but this one is fairly tight. When forming the corner it's obviously essential that it's vertical, the line of snap head rivets aids this task.

 

 

I didn't take many photos of the assembly but this is what it looks like. One thing that's not really clear on any photos i've seen or from the drawings of the tender are what the vents actually looked like, so i've assumed they are a mushroom style fitting. the outer frames are a laminate with the area around the axle boxes half etched. The spring hangers fit either side of the outer frames. One thing that was odd was the front handrail grab holes had been etched too large (i checked the drawing and they should have been fine at 0.45mm dia).

 

 

 

There's a large square hole in the base under the rear part of the tank so that weight can be added after the fact as it's difficult to get anything into the sides of the horseshoe. Pickups can also be added to the inner chassis to aid the electrical performance.

 

Loco chassis next.

 

[k22009]

I'm making a start on the chassis and as i've included inside motion on the etch i'd better try it out, gulp. 

 

This will be built in OO, consequently there is no room to get any springing or compensation along with the motion so it will be built rigid. There is a choice of motion brackets on th etch, the Dubs version and the rest of the manufacturers version. there are half etched guides for fitting horn blocks if the full inside motion option isn't taken, it should be possible to include some simple compensation in EM or P4.

 

 

Bearings and spacers located. I prefer to have the shoulder of the bearings on the inside and file the bearing flush to the frame outer face as i like to make the frames as wide as possible so they appear more prototypical. The spacers in OO here are 12mm so making the frames around 12.8 o/all that leaves around 0.85mm each side of side play which is fine for the centre driver but i usually add a thin nylon washer for the front and rear drivers to minimise this. 

 

 

 

The front spacer takes the place of the cylinder block so i've added the piston tubes, the slide bars are laminated from 2 strips so i've chopped them in half without removing the individual items and i'll just laminate 2 sections complete as they will line up perfectly.

 

 

Slide bars fitted, although i think its probably best to leave the upper slide bars off until i make up the crossheads and sandwich them in between. I can soon ease them out if i need to.

 

 

There are no axle cranks as come with most inside motion kits as i just don't have the facilities to make them so from the outset i decided that the connecting rods would be fixed in situ. Here they are with piston rods and crossheads fitted, they are soldered into the cylinder block so they don't foul the centre driver axle.

 

 

On with the eccentrics later which will be fun.

 

 

[lezz01]

Hi Dave.

If you have a look at the Brassmasters website you will see how they made the slide bars on the 4F kit integral with the cylinder rear covers so that they fold up into a single unit. It might be less fiddly to do it like that when you do the revisions to the etch. I should have pointed this out to you when you were doing the artwork, my bad sorry mate. 

I feel that it may be possible to combine the front part of their 4F inside motion kit with the cranks and eccentrics from one of the Finny GW inside motion kits, that they also now market, plus the conrods and eccentric rods from this kit to build a motion that is very a close rendition of the real Kirtley motion. I intend to combine the Brassmasters and Finny inside motion kits to get a better representation of the 4F motion on a 4F kit that I have in stock. I don't really like the way the Brassmasters kit uses eccentrics for the cranks although it will build up into working motion the crank axle isn't very realistic and is, I feel, a compromise too far. Whether or not it works remains to be seen as I will need to modify or replace some of the components and whilst I am confident in my skills to be able to achieve this the proof of the pudding is, as they say, in the eating and hubris is one of the 7 deadly sins so we shall see. My ability may not be equal to my ambition!

Regards Lez.   

[k22009]

Just a few more photos of assembling the inside motion.

 

 

 

 

All assembled into the chassis with expansion links, die blocks added

 

 

 

 

[MarkC]

All looking very good, Dave.

 

Regarding adding weight to the tender - could you not add "liquid lead" into the horseshoe voids?

 

Cheers

Mark

[k22009]

4 hours ago, MarkC said:

All looking very good, Dave.

 

Regarding adding weight to the tender - could you not add "liquid lead" into the horseshoe voids?

 

Cheers

Mark

 

Cheers Mark, at the moment access into the horseshoe voids is not great as stiffeners prevent access from the rear throuigh the void under the main tank area, so i may add a slot or void underneath each side in the tank base so that that is a possibilty then if you wish to. At the moment i've added some lead sheet and fixed that in position which seems fine, but it would be nice to have more weight at the front end.

 

[lezz01]

Looking good Dave. 

Regards Lez.

[k22009]

Time to attempt forming the footplate to the correct profile. I used the outer frames as a template as the valences are quite small and wouldn't stand up to too much handling without bending, surprisingly the curves formed without too much resistance. On the revised etch i have decided to make the valences into a frame that will be joined together with spacers forming a good solid base to work from, the frame can then be cut away later.

 

 

Valences soldered on, the footplate is quite flimsy so hopefully with the addition of the valence framework it should make it much more rigid.

 

 

The outer frames are a 2 piece item with a choice of overlays so that the Neilson locos with the extra webs can be modelled too.

 

 

And attached to the footplate along with the buffer and drag beam.

 

 

Cab sides soldered to the rear splashers and with the 2 cab parts laminated together the cab is formed.

 

 

 

Boiler/smokebox and splashers next

[lezz01]

Hi Dave.

The running plate has gone together really well it looks fantastic.

Regards Lez.

[Jol Wilkinson]

A number of kits in the London Road Models range with curved running plates have the valances mounted onto a fold up jig, attached by a number of tags. The jig is part of the chassis etch (which is thicker n/s and stiffer). The centre of the jig etch holds a number of small parts for the chassis. After folding up the jig and forming the running plate, the jig can be cut away with a piercing saw.

 

Picture of the LNWR Jumbo valance jig and running plate. In this kit the instructions recommend adding the cab, splashers and boiler before removing the jig.

 

 

[k22009]

Thanks Jol, that's very similar to what i was thinking about and yes adding some items while it's restrained is definitely a plus. Some Finney and Mitchell kits have similar cradles, it all helps to make the assembly a better experience.

[k22009]

The boiler diameter is pretty small and is at the limit of the GW rolling bars especially the larger one that i have, when you get down to the really small diameters you need to roll the item at one end or the other as in the middle the rolls start to deflect slightly. The handrail and clack valve holes are half etched on the boiler inside so need drilling out before rolling. The holes in the formers are for 0.9mm rod to act as a locating pin, the cab front has these too.

 

 

The firebox end then needs opening out so that it follows a straight profile from the centre line, i just use parallel sided pliers to do this very gradually. I only fitted the front and rear formers but an additional one is included to give additional rigidity if needed. I left it out so that additional lead can be fitted into it more easily (i'll do this once i have the gearbox/motor setup). This is one of the few areas that weight can be added along with some narrow strips between where the chassis frames sit and the outer frames.

 

 

Just a trial to see how it fits to the cab unit. Splasher top added here. The boiler will remain a removable item.

 

 

I've added the cab splashers, these also act as the rear sandboxes and will have a filler at the half etched recess later. There is a hole under these on the footplate to allow a sanding rod to be added. I've since re fitted the ends of the cab splashers so they sit flush to the cab side ends. I'll file down the locating rods slightly so they sit flush to the cab inside and don't foul the backhead.

 

 

Smokebox and splashers next.

[Blandford1969]

That's really clever how you have etched the steam pressure and vacuum gauges on the back of the cab etch. 

[Miss Prism]

2 hours ago, k22009 said:

I'll file down the locating rods slightly so they sit flush to the cab inside and don't foul the backhead.

 

Why not make clearance recesses in the rear of the backhead - the locating rods can thus retain their decent length.

[k22009]

1 hour ago, Miss Prism said:

 

Why not make clearance recesses in the rear of the backhead - the locating rods can thus retain their decent length.

 

After i checked the backhead it has a slight concave face to the rear so it only needed a smidgeon taking off.

[k22009]

Splashers made up, one set with a cut out for the firebox and tacked into position on the footplate. Johnson smokebox (Deeley smokebox also on the etch) also formed and tacked to the boiler

 

 

All loosely assembled onto the footplate. 

 

 

The springs are similar to the tender and are made up from 5 parts sweated together in one shot, there are 3 different sizes on the locomotive.

 

 

 

And attached to the footplate, splashers now fully soldered along with the cab assembly onto the footplate. 

 

 

Castings, handrails etc next