What was the plan for hydraulics after the Westerns?

[Mike_Walker]

D7000 was actually delivered with blue route availability markings but they appear to have been changed to red before entering service.

 

[45125]

On 14/10/2022 at 14:21, DCB said:

The 37 and Deltic shared the same bogies, quite literally, recovered Deltic bogies were use for class 37 after withdrawal,  but the final drive ratio had to be changed from the 90mph max of the 37 to the 105 mph of the Deltic.  Needless to say the experiment was not a huge success

 

 

There were flawed ad seriously biased comparisons between cl 52 Hydraulics and cL 47 which were summarised in Modern Railways, probably circa 1965.    The 52 basically could dissipate all the heat continuously at very high powers, it's continuous rating exceeded the class 47  10 minute rating.  It was a much more capable machine.    The Lie and Bias was to state Westerns had a much easier life principally on express work than the 47 many of which were on MGR coal and other low speed work.  The Lie was exposed when 47s were requited to run fast and reliability nose dived, many needed to be re geared all needed to be de rated to alledgedly 2580 HP, though how you achieve that precision is a bit questionable. 

 

The Hymek was over weight. Supposed to be blue route it was at least a ton too heavy one end and light the other. The Power unit was a few inches too far one way.  Mass production was in full swing so it couldn't be fixed and the Hymek's raison d'etre evaporated, the 76 ton Hymek was too heavy so they cancelled the order beyond 101 locos  and built 105 ton class 37 which were lighter   That's what happens when railways get nationalised  common sense flies out of the window.  The fact the Hymek had no hammer blow compared to the 56XX they were replacing was quietly ignored.   The real problem with Hydraulics was the origins were German, Nasty Nazi engineering, and Germans had been shooting at and bombing many of the BR board members a few years earlier.    The Hymeks and Warships had cardan shaft problems, they twisted at low speed high power, however class 86 and 87 had cardan shaft drives with well over twice the power so the issues were not insoluable.  But the racism was.
 

Also contributing to Hydraulic's downfall you didn't need all the huge cranes etc to drag the power units out of Hydraulics that you did with single power unit Diesel electrics, Big inefficient works like Derby realised small efficient works like Newton Abbot and Inverurie could maintain Diesel hydraulic fleets a lot cheaper than their out dated empires could and set to work to safeguard their own interests like all good jobsworths do.

The Brush 4s weren't regeared at all, to derate them the two crankshafts where rephased as part of the derating.

 

Edited October 16, 2022 by 45125

[The Stationmaster]

Interesting to g hear that the Hymeks were supposed to be Blue RA (especially as they were intended to replace Red RA steam engines) and therefore couldn't work over Blue RA routes - which of course is exactly what they did do,  Although by the time they were in traffic there were only two Blue RA routes of any significance left and they were both on borrowed time although Hymeks were the only locos that worked the last survivor for it final years.  The reason for the change appears to have been quite simple - they were 2 tons over the planned weight which pushed the axle load over.  I wonder if a misunderstanding arose because - as illustrated by Mike Walker - the first turned up at Swindon with a Blue RA disc which was plainly totally incorrect because even the lightest axle weights were very nearly a ton over weight for Blue RA.   They would have had to have been more than 3 tons lighter than their specified weight (and 5 tons lighter than their actual weight) to have fallen into the Blue RA category.

 

To suggest that there was big work  difference between Brush Type 4 and D10XX (as they then were) is somewhat misleading.  The Brush 4s first entered WR traffic on the Paddington - Birmingham route and were almost immediately in serious trouble with bogie fires and shifted tyres due t0 the automatic slack adjusters on the brake rigging adjusting slack that wasn't there.  I understood from a WR Divisional Loco Engineer that the reason the Brush 4s were derated was due too 'bubble bounce' in the cooling area around the cylinders which was leading to, I think,  damage to the liners.  That occurred at about the same time that 50% of the Hymeks were derated while the other 50% had one gear locked out.

 

The so called comparison between the the Brush 4 and the 1000 was a charade carefully stage managed by Derby M&EE.  At the time hth comparison was undertaken different regions used different methods of assessing availability and probably also of classifying casualties in traffic.  But instead of making the comparison at the only depot on BR which was dealing with both types - on similar diagrams - and therefore using consistent bases for measurement of just about everything from the work output of a Fitter per hour to casualties per x number of miles to availability and so on the study didn't do that but used two dissimilar depots with dissimilar work as the basis for comparison.  Despite what the study said the actuall situation was that if measured ona common basis the D10XX availability was better than that of the Brush loco as were some other comparator figures.  as ever when carrying outa study to prove a point it is best to avoid comparisons which might prove the opposite.

Edited October 14, 2022 by The Stationmaster

[Allegheny1600]

As someone who hails from Derby, I feel terribly apologetic about these happenings! 
However, my only railway experience is actually only a very short period in the 2000s when I ‘temped’ at Litchurch Lane, oh, and at the tech centre!

Seriously, with the passage of time and everything - do the serious railway men on here believe that the BRB decision to concentrate on DE power (getting rid of the hydraulics) was a good one?

 

I say serious railway men, meaning proper operational guys rather than enthusiastic amateurs like myself!

[Allegheny1600]

Maybe a related question or statement but certainly true - in Germany, the home of the diesel hydraulic and the Diesel engine itself, of course, development did take place.

The V200 has been mentioned already, this was first put into service in 1953/54!

The “V” means in German, “diesel powered locomotive” and the 200 means 2000hp.

The next development was the V200.1 (production model) later class 221 that came out in 1955-58 with 2170hp - just an incremental change really.

The next increment was actually Yugoslavian but German built - initially the six axle ML2200 of 2400hp, curiously. The forth example of which was rebuilt into the V300 in 1958 which ran in Germany until 1980.

After this, power wise, came the 1961-69 ML4000 (3540hp) which were the locos best known on the Southern Pacific and DRGW in the USA but also used in Brazil.

Things stabilised for a while, the German market was flooded with hundreds of V160 ranging in power from 1900hp to 2500hp, roughly.

There was one double V160, the V320 built in 1962 by Henschel (DH4000) speculatively for DB that ended up in private commercial hands and operated until 2015! This actually had a maximum of 3800hp. While there were no further examples in Europe, the Chinese did build copies!

Horsepower development paused for a long while, as the fleet of V200s of all types were withdrawn and the V160s grew older, development might have been expected but in 1989, the Berlin Wall came down, precipitating the collapse of East German industry thus allowing a flood of powerful Soviet built Diesel Electric locos to work throughout both Germanys and eventually, just the one unified country.

However, in 2006, the company Voith (sound familiar?) introduced the Maxima, a six axle monster of 5000hp! It was available in either 4000hp or 5000hp versions but sadly, DB the “big” railway in Germany, opted to go for smaller diesel electric locomotives and Voith only sold a total of 19 Maxima’s, all privately.

 

This is a necessarily brief (!) summary of happenings across the English Channel and as far as I know, it’s up to date - this is the end of the hydraulic horsepower race. There are still plenty of Diesel Hydraulic locos operating in Europe but they are generally smaller ones in the 500hp to 3000hp categories.

 

I only present this to showcase that Diesel Hydraulic development in the UK could have been very different.

Cheers,

 John 

[MidlandRed]

In short, plans the WR had for further hydraulics (particularly additional Westerns) were changed to diesel electrics. The Policy shift came in the very early 60s (1961) and for type 4s, were because the price of the Westerns (around £123,000 each for Crewe build; ‘significantly more’ for Swindon), exceeded the price of Brush Type 4s (£111,000). 
 

I don’t know about a ‘super’ hydraulic but Falcon was effectively a hydraulic competitor to the diesel-electric, Lion - and both of these met the ideas centrally in BR about a 2700 hp diesel on Co Co bogies which was around by 1960. The end result of this was the class 47 (and presumably the Western hydraulic), although as stated, it had been agreed centrally the WR would have diesel electrics (types 3 and 4) for their next dieselisation schemes (partially because they overlapped with other regions and required inter-regional working). Reorganisation on BR in 1963 removed much regional autonomy (particularly for loco works which were put into a new organisation called BR Workshops), and the WR lost their Midlands and NW operations, gaining SR operations in the SW (much of which closed late 1966). Traction Planning became a national matter and the first national traction plan in 1965 identified new loco requirements and surplus ones - amongst the latter was the WR declaring class 43 Warships and class 14s surplus to requirements, and their being required to release a significant number of type 3 and type 4 diesel electrics to other regions. They were offered temporary loan of a number of EE Type 1s and Brush Type 4s new build in advance of their requirement on the LMR - as we know, this wasn’t taken up. I seem to recall there was a stage when thoughts of Deltics for the fastest WR trains was considered by the Region’s management (late 50s) - presumably as diesel electrics. 

 

Beyer Peacock continued to build for BR after the Hymeks, building both class 25s and class 17s, which concluded in 1966, when their last 18 class 25s were transferred to BR Derby as they were about to enter liquidation. The only reference to Beyer Peacock and further Hymeks I have read from books quoting research from BR records refers to an approach by BP to see if further orders might be forthcoming. However the class 37 provision appears to have been decided before the Hymeks were delivered - one can only presume the mention of additional low geared Hymeks for S Wales is, as @The Johnster mentioned, urban myth or maybe some ideas which were around Canton and elsewhere at the beginning of the 60s. 
 

Regarding the class 14s, the WR was still indicating a need for several hundred (400) of these not long before the first were built, and the costing to justify the build of class 14 was based on savings over the full build of 400. In the event the build cost was not far short of a fully equipped type 1 diesel electric, and in any case the requirement had become none a couple of years after the first build in 1964 (partially caused by the collapse of freight traffic - but possibly extremely bad planning (or perpetuation of ideas from the mid 50s). Also BR (W)s pursuit of steam elimination by the end of 1965 overlapped with the impact of Beeching so it was perhaps inevitable some over-estimation of requirements would occur. 
 

Anthony P Sayer’s book on the class 14s on BR gives a very concise account of the traction planning processes, from official records, which covers the various WR dieselisation schemes and change to national traction planning, which had a significant effect on the WRs traction at all levels. 

 

 

Edited October 14, 2022 by MidlandRed

[MidlandRed]

Additionally, and following @The Stationmaster post regarding 100 mph working on the WR in the mid 60s, I seem to recall a trial with modified class 37s in multiple on S Wales passenger trains in this connection? 

[Ian Hargrave]

16 minutes ago, MidlandRed said:

Additionally, and following @The Stationmaster post regarding 100 mph working on the WR in the mid 60s, I seem to recall a trial with modified class 37s in multiple on S Wales passenger trains in this connection? 

In pairs with the XP64 set. No trial but scheduled services Swansea-Paddington mid 1966. I travelled on it. OK ?

[MidlandRed]

2 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

 

To suggest that there was big work  difference between Brush Type 4 and D10XX (as they then were) is somewhat misleading.  The Brush 4s first entered WR traffic on the Paddington - Birmingham route and were almost immediately in serious trouble with bogie fires and shifted tyres due t0 the automatic slack adjusters on the brake rigging adjusting slack that wasn't there.  I understood from a WR Divisional Loco Engineer that the reason the Brush 4s were derated was due too 'bubble bounce' in the cooling area around the cylinders which was leading to, I think,  damage to the liners.  That occurred at about the same time that 50% of the Hymeks were derated while the other 50% had one gear locked out.

 

The so called comparison between the the Brush 4 and the 1000 was a charade carefully stage managed by Derby M&EE.  At the time hth comparison was undertaken different regions used different methods of assessing availability and probably also of classifying casualties in traffic.  But instead of making the comparison at the only depot on BR which was dealing with both types - on similar diagrams - and therefore using consistent bases for measurement of just about everything from the work output of a Fitter per hour to casualties per x number of miles to availability and so on the study didn't do that but used two dissimilar depots with dissimilar work as the basis for comparison.  Despite what the study said the actuall situation was that if measured ona common basis the D10XX availability was better than that of the Brush loco as were some other comparator figures.  as ever when carrying outa study to prove a point it is best to avoid comparisons which might prove the opposite.

Whilst not wishing to disparage the WR, by the time they received their first class 47s for the Birmingham services - replacing D1000 Westerns (D1682 onwards), the route north of Banbury was LMR - as were many of the newly delivered class 47 locos. The ER had been operating a larger fleet of these locos, including on ECML expresses for 6-9 months already - was the WR able to learn lessons from another region’s experience (bogie fires)? 
 

Regarding the comparator trials, presumably depots were chosen to give a range of traffic conditions - did the WR actually have non boiler fitted freight only class 47 locos at the time of the trials? It seems perfectly reasonable to take experience from depots across regions to obtain realistic results although obviously class 52 applied to WR only. 

[MidlandRed]

6 minutes ago, Ian Hargrave said:

In pairs with the XP64 set. No trial but scheduled services Swansea-Paddington mid 1966. I travelled on it. OK ?

Noted re trial, however IIRC they did not last very long on the services? 

[Ian Hargrave]

O

12 minutes ago, MidlandRed said:

Noted re trial, however IIRC they did not last very long on the services? 

In fact it took the introduction of 125’s in the late 1970’s to provide a reasonable communication between S.Wales and London.This to this day even with part electrification remains an ongoing issue. Using pairs of locos to accelerate services was by no means confined to Class 37’s. Warships were used on Paddington-West of England services in pairs a short while later.

[Nearholmer]

The book to read is “Hydaulic vs Electric” by David Clough, which despite the overly catchy title is a serious piece of work with contributions from very knowledgeable people.

[Andy Kirkham]

7 hours ago, The Johnster said:

The WR, probably because of the hydraulics, was much less invested in Type 2s and more in Type 3s than other regions in the 60s.  It seemed to consider Type 3 to be a replacement for 5MT steam (as did Ivatt with the Twins) while conventional wisdom elsewhere seemed to reckon Type 2 would do;

 

Perhaps this is why the Class 21s were early on judged to be so useless they needed to be re-engined, while the class 22s with the same engine but lighter duties were left as they were.

 

 

Edited October 14, 2022 by Andy Kirkham

[Andy Kirkham]

5 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

Interesting to g hear that the Hymeks were supposed to be Blue RA (especially as they were intended to replace Red RA steam engines) and therefore couldn't work over Blue RA routes - which of course is exactly what they did do,  Although by the time they were in traffic there were only two Blue RA routes of any significance left and they were both on borrowed time although Hymeks were the only locos that worked the last survivor for it final years.  

 

Which were those two routes, Mike? Was one of them Carmarthen-Aberystwyth?

[br2975]

4 hours ago, Ian Hargrave said:

In pairs with the XP64 set. No trial but scheduled services Swansea-Paddington mid 1966. I travelled on it. OK ?

.

Padd - Swansea

and

Padd - Bristol

[kevinlms]

10 hours ago, The Johnster said:

 

The hydraulics all had the not-very-effective food warming cupboards like in passenger brake vans, while diesel-electrics usually had proper hotplates you could boil a tea can or make toast on. 

You've come up with a valid reason of why the hydraulics had to go!

[The Johnster]

3 hours ago, Andy Kirkham said:

 

Perhaps this is why the Class 21s were early on judged to be so useless they needed to be re-engined, while the class 22s with the same engine but lighter duties were left as they were.

 

 

 

Quite possibly, but there was another factor which applied to the D61xx; it is bad enough having an unreliable loco if you are working an Old Oak-Paddington ecs, or bimbling around the Forest of Dean with a few wagons, or even assisting Warships up Dainton.  But when you are crossing Rannoch Moor, it is a whole nother ball game, and concievably life threatening in very bad weather. 

 

12 minutes ago, kevinlms said:

You've come up with a valid reason of why the hydraulics had to go!

 

A Hymek in two-tone green with white window surrounds, small yellow warning panel, and a decent hotplate/grill would have been as close to perfection as it got in those days...

 

 

[kevinlms]

Apart from Germany, who else successfully ran a large fleet of diesel hydraulics, by that I mean running a fast service on relatively heavy passenger trains?

[Allegheny1600]

5 hours ago, kevinlms said:

Apart from Germany, who else successfully ran a large fleet of diesel hydraulics, by that I mean running a fast service on relatively heavy passenger trains?

The Japanese.

[KeithMacdonald]

7 hours ago, The Johnster said:

A Hymek in two-tone green with white window surrounds, small yellow warning panel, and a decent hotplate/grill would have been as close to perfection as it got in those days...

 

 

[keefer]

I thought SNCF had some but it would seem to have only been the two prototype BB69000 locos.

These were ordered for a direct comparison with the prototype diesel-electric CC70000 class.

Electric transmission won out with the ordering of the CC72000 class but these still retained monomotor bogies with two-speed transmissions, making them a curious combination of transmission types.

Edited October 15, 2022 by keefer

[Artless Bodger]

Spain had a few, B-Bs with two MD870 engines, 4000 HP. Looked much like a V200. Effectively a double Hymek.

 

http://www.railfaneurope.net/pix/es/diesel/historic/340/pix.html

[APOLLO]

THIS is how I remember the "Westerners", head out of front window and a lung full of diesel fumes !!!! Superb locomotives.

 

 

Brit15

[KeithMacdonald]

20 hours ago, Allegheny1600 said:

However, in 2006, the company Voith (sound familiar?) introduced the Maxima, a six axle monster of 5000hp! It was available in either 4000hp or 5000hp versions

 

It certainly looks like a space age Super-Western - imagine one of those on heavyweight china clay duties!

 

 

Also available in HO gauge - at a price

Euro 329 (DC)

Euro 349 (DCC)

Euro 429 (DCC & Sound)

https://www.waggonfabrik.eu/

 

Quote

 

Voith Maxima 1:87 scale by SWS Saechsische Waggonfabrik Stollberg

 

 

 

 

[Halvarras]

16 hours ago, Andy Kirkham said:

 

Which were those two routes, Mike? Was one of them Carmarthen-Aberystwyth?

 

At least one Hymek (D7003) worked the Hemyock branch in autumn 1971, although I believe bridge strengthening allowed it. This may well have been due to a shortage of serviceable Class 22s by then but it wasn't long before Class 25s took over. In TOPS days a Class 31 also went down the line with a single GUV in tow giving enthusiasts a ride........not exactly the easiest vehicle to see out of! 

 

By pure chance I was in a position to witness Warship 805 'Benbow' propel two bogie rerailing vans down the Wadebridge branch on 6th September 1971, and since  wondered whether its replacement Class 46 - with twice the number of wheels and coming on for twice the weight - could have coped with the reverse curves between Grogley Halt and Polbrock Bridge. The amount of wheel-squealing from this combo suggests not! A classic example of this lightweight Type 4's versatility.

 

A huge amount of work went into the construction of D800, including a mass of metric-to-imperial conversions and learning the stressed-skin construction technique. The loco was virtually hand-built, so accurately that I understand it was used to make the jigs for constructing the rest. I recall seeing its lifeless and nameless hulk being moved around Laira by D2178 on New Year's Day 1969 and since thought that it deserved to be preserved in recognition of Swindon's massive effort in building it but, just like the LMS twins 10000/1, there was no interest in saving diesels at the time.