A gauging mater of scale

[844fan]

Hello all,

I hope this is the best place to post on this subject, I didn't see specific forum sections for my quest. So here goes, I need to figure out something about Gauge 1/g scale and Gauge 3 scales. I have read that Gauge 3 is run on the same track G scale is run on and is more accurate a scale for standard Gauge models. A sort of HO/OO scenario based off the details I have found.

 

But I have also read that Gauge 3 is slightly wider track  and I cannot find a photo side by side, video resource and all those Scale comparison images with tue same loco from the front stat with N and stops at G. 

 

I have always been intending to use G scale for my layout one day but for another project I need better info on Gauge 3 and how it compares.

[Jeremy Cumberland]

Gauge 1 is run on the same track as G scale (45 mm). Gauge 3 scale is about the same as G scale (1:22.5)

 

The most common gauges for garden railways are 32 mm and 45 mm, with 2½ inch (63.5 mm) a considerably distance behind. If you are modelling standard gauge trains, these are 0 gauge, gauge 1 and gauge 3 respectively. There are various sub-standards within 0 gauge and gauge 1 regarding wheel and track standards, but this is the basic picture. The scale of 0 gauge is 7 mm/ft, but gauge 1 and gauge 3 are rather less clear. In Britain, gauge 1 was mostly 10 mm/ft, but 1:32 scale (as used elsewhere in the world) is becoming more common. Most new models appear to be in 1:32 scale. Gauge 3 was originally ½"/ft but now uses a slightly larger scale, but what it is exactly, I could not say. I have seen 17/32”/ ft, 13.5mm/ft and 1:22.4 all mentioned. These are all pretty close together, though, and very similar to G scale.

 

32 mm and 45 mm track is also used for narrow gauge trains, and there are such a wide range of possibilities that they are impossible to list here. The most common are:

16 mm/ft scale on 32 mm track, representing 2 foot gauge prototypes.

G scale: 1:22.5 on 45 mm track, representing metre gauge prototypes.

15 mm/ft scale on 45 mm track, representing 3 foot gauge prototypes.

7/8"/ft scale on 45 mm track, representing 2 foot gauge prototypes.

 

Modellers of other prototype gaugess, such as 2'3" (Talyllyn) or 2'6" (Welshpool & Llanfair or Leek & Manifold) tend to use one of the standard scale/gauge combinations, usually 16 mm/ft and 32 mm track for 2'3", and 16mm/ft and either 32 mm or 45 mm track for 2'6", so the models have slightly wide or narrow gauge in comparison with the prototype.

[Dungrange]

 

https://www.world-of-railways.co.uk/techniques/model-railway-scales-and-gauges-explained/

 

 

In the early 20th century manufacturers decided to standardise on a numbering scheme for the various sizes of models being produced. Gauges 0, 1, 2 and 3 were created to cover the four popular scales at the time.

Basic O gauge is to a scale of ¼in to 1ft

Gauge 1 is 3/8in to 1ft

Gauge 2 is 7/16in to 1ft

Gauge 3 is 12/32in or 1/2in to 1ft

Gauges above these tend to use the measurement concerned compared to the foot, for instance 3.5in gauge, 5 1/2in gauge or 7 1/4in gauge - these tend to be the realm of live steam miniature locomotives and model engineering rather than model railways.

 

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At the time in history when the popular model railway scales were 0, 1, 2 and 3, models weren't as detailed as they are now and in many cases the scales were nominal. For particular prototypes it would have been necessary to adopt a slightly different scale to accommodate working parts.  This means that to a certain extent these meanings have been fluid over time and varied with location.  If we take O gauge to be 1/4" to 1 ft then that is a scale of 1:48.  In the UK, many O gauge models needed to be overscale, which is why this ultimately developed into the scale of 1:43.5 that we now use in the UK (7mm : 1 ft).  However, scales of 1:45 and 1:48 are still used elsewhere and also described as O Gauge.

 

The same is true of gauges 1, 2 and 3, the main difference being that these are much less common than the smaller scales.  Gauge 1 was 1:32 but has been described as 10mm : 1 ft  in the UK

 

There seems to be a Gauge 3 Society - https://www.gauge3.org.uk/home so that's probably the place to go to read up on the scale.

[kevinlms]

1 hour ago, Dungrange said:

 

https://www.world-of-railways.co.uk/techniques/model-railway-scales-and-gauges-explained/

 

 

In the early 20th century manufacturers decided to standardise on a numbering scheme for the various sizes of models being produced. Gauges 0, 1, 2 and 3 were created to cover the four popular scales at the time.

Basic O gauge is to a scale of ¼in to 1ft

Gauge 1 is 3/8in to 1ft

Gauge 2 is 7/16in to 1ft

Gauge 3 is 12/32in or 1/2in to 1ft

Gauges above these tend to use the measurement concerned compared to the foot, for instance 3.5in gauge, 5 1/2in gauge or 7 1/4in gauge - these tend to be the realm of live steam miniature locomotives and model engineering rather than model railways.

 

------

 

 

At the time in history when the popular model railway scales were 0, 1, 2 and 3, models weren't as detailed as they are now and in many cases the scales were nominal. For particular prototypes it would have been necessary to adopt a slightly different scale to accommodate working parts.  This means that to a certain extent these meanings have been fluid over time and varied with location.  If we take O gauge to be 1/4" to 1 ft then that is a scale of 1:48.  In the UK, many O gauge models needed to be overscale, which is why this ultimately developed into the scale of 1:43.5 that we now use in the UK (7mm : 1 ft).  However, scales of 1:45 and 1:48 are still used elsewhere and also described as O Gauge.

 

The same is true of gauges 1, 2 and 3, the main difference being that these are much less common than the smaller scales.  Gauge 1 was 1:32 but has been described as 10mm : 1 ft  in the UK

 

There seems to be a Gauge 3 Society - https://www.gauge3.org.uk/home so that's probably the place to go to read up on the scale.

Except for one thing, the manufacturers on continental Europe didn't use Imperial measurements.

[The Johnster]

Storms in Channel, Continent isolated…

[BR60103]

Before this scale modelling fad took off the prime consideration for toy trains was that they would run on your track. Then debate about couplings so you could run different makers' cars together.

 

[The Johnster]

As anyone who uses tension locks will confirm, the couplings issue is ongoing…

[Il Grifone]

On 17/10/2022 at 12:21, The Johnster said:

Storms in Channel, Continent isolated…

 

In addition to metric measurements, they had the tendancy to measure the gauge to the centre of the rails,

 

Sardinian metric gauge is actually 950mm for this reason,

[844fan]

On 17/10/2022 at 21:33, BR60103 said:

Before this scale modelling fad took off the prime consideration for toy trains was that they would run on your track. Then debate about couplings so you could run different makers' cars together.

 

Perhaps, considering the idea is a Meta idea for a comic about a world of toys and toy trains that has a lore to it I should consider that. In the story couplings are Screwlink and buffers, or chain and Dumb and I am making the toys with a link sorta like that Mattel (The jerks, yes that is a rail slight due to all the rubbish Awdry's legacy is now) 

 

So  could even say for the story that the trains are a 1:18th scale as the action figures the are connected to are that scale. Pardon my babbling just trying to figure a size that can work indoors and out with 1:18 scale living toys in a world mirroring ours. 

[Jeremy Cumberland]

1:18 is a rather inconvenient 2/3 inch to the foot, or about 17 mm to the foot. This is probably close enough to 16 mm scale for you to use 16 mm trains to represent narrow gauge (2' on 32 mm gauge track or 2'6" on 45 mm track - the latter may look better in your slightly larger scale). [Edit: if you are using side buffers and chain couplings, then take a look at models of the Talyllyn Railway].

 

For standard gauge, the closest is 3½". This is the next size up from Gauge 3, and is a model engineering scale, using 3½" gauge track at a scale of 1:16, or 3/4" to the foot. None of the larger scales are used much for true scale models in the way that smaller scales like 00 are. Oh, the locomtives and rolling stock may be represented with great accuracy, but the ralways themselves are mostly outdoor, with a backdrop of full-size flowers and other plants, although many have scale buildings and people in station areas, and maybe scale signals as well. In 3½", though, even this disappears. 3½" is the smallest "ride on" scale.

Edited October 22, 2022 by Jeremy C

[844fan]

On 22/10/2022 at 02:13, Jeremy C said:

1:18 is a rather inconvenient 2/3 inch to the foot, or about 17 mm to the foot. This is probably close enough to 16 mm scale for you to use 16 mm trains to represent narrow gauge (2' on 32 mm gauge track or 2'6" on 45 mm track - the latter may look better in your slightly larger scale). [Edit: if you are using side buffers and chain couplings, then take a look at models of the Talyllyn Railway].

 

For standard gauge, the closest is 3½". This is the next size up from Gauge 3, and is a model engineering scale, using 3½" gauge track at a scale of 1:16, or 3/4" to the foot. None of the larger scales are used much for true scale models in the way that smaller scales like 00 are. Oh, the locomtives and rolling stock may be represented with great accuracy, but the ralways themselves are mostly outdoor, with a backdrop of full-size flowers and other plants, although many have scale buildings and people in station areas, and maybe scale signals as well. In 3½", though, even this disappears. 3½" is the smallest "ride on" scale.

Well my goal is less to keep accuracy to 90% of my locomotive characters, as I said it is "Toy" trains but I want the characters that are not trains to be able to ride in the coaches and rolling stock. Many of my trains are based off standard gauge classes but that isn't to say "Rivet counter" level, so the toys who would use the trains are 1:18 but the engines and track in story has been 1:32 scale up till now. I am trying to not fall prey to the old "writers have no sense of scale" trope. But the toys of the trains are to be a 1:62 scale as I am pulling a old Matchbox trick the engines are of the toy line but need not be scale correct.

 

To give you a better idea, think Action Force for the action figures and Thomas Ertl for the train sets. This is meant for story purposes if you take my meaning.

[844fan]

On 22/10/2022 at 02:13, Jeremy C said:

1:18 is a rather inconvenient 2/3 inch to the foot, or about 17 mm to the foot. This is probably close enough to 16 mm scale for you to use 16 mm trains to represent narrow gauge (2' on 32 mm gauge track or 2'6" on 45 mm track - the latter may look better in your slightly larger scale). [Edit: if you are using side buffers and chain couplings, then take a look at models of the Talyllyn Railway].

 

For standard gauge, the closest is 3½". This is the next size up from Gauge 3, and is a model engineering scale, using 3½" gauge track at a scale of 1:16, or 3/4" to the foot. None of the larger scales are used much for true scale models in the way that smaller scales like 00 are. Oh, the locomtives and rolling stock may be represented with great accuracy, but the ralways themselves are mostly outdoor, with a backdrop of full-size flowers and other plants, although many have scale buildings and people in station areas, and maybe scale signals as well. In 3½", though, even this disappears. 3½" is the smallest "ride on" scale.

 

Hey sorry to bump my topic, I do not like bending the rules or breaking them. But this once I do hope I can be forgiven, just found out about a new (to me) scale that solves my problems possibly. It still uses G/gauge 1 track and is F scale, much like O having a use for smaller gauge modeling (the 2 foot 3 like those in Wales for instance) it is also used for standard gauge locos that is F to G.

 

The rules typically follow that G scale is used for narrow gauge and F is well you know, i even saw a photo of I think a Mountain type Loco (4-8-4) next to a Denver and Rio Grande loco and now I can understand why the writer I mentioned before as a inspiration for a character from used a D&RG class engine for his story based on a British loading gauge but with a American tender engine, this made that engine look like a Terrier next to the much larger Standard Gauge Prototype. 

 

So yeah may have found a breakthrough, again I am so sorry to bump this. I just wanted to let you all who have been so helpful that I have a idea. Edits aren't as effective in that regard.

[Jeremy Cumberland]

F scale is 15 mm/ft, and is used for 3 foot gauge prototypes, such as the Isle of Man Railway and the Denver and Rio Grande. It is one of the scales I work in, which is why I know about it; the term "F Scale" is mostly used only in the US.

 

However,  would have thought that with your scale of 1:18, 16 mm/ft prototypes would be a better match (and models are more widely available in Britain), although I agree with running them on 45 mm track. Suitable UK prototypes for 45 mm track include the Welshpool and Llanfair Railway and the Leek and Manifold Railway (both 2' 6" gauge). Talyllyn Railway (2' 3" prototype) locomotives and rolling stock that I mentioned earlier are noticably smaller.

 

For reference the most common railway scales around your own 1:18 scale are (from smaller to larger):

1:22.5 (approx) - G Scale (45 mm gauge for metre gauge prototypes) and Gauge 3 (63.5 mm gauge for standard gauge prototypes)

1:20.3 - 15 mm/ft or F Scale (45 mm gauge for 3 ft gauge prototypes)

1:19 - 16 mm/ft (32 mm gauge for 2 ft gauge prototypes and 45 mm gauge for 2'6" gauge prototypes)

1:18 - Your own scale

1:16 - 3½" (3½" gauge for standard gauge prototypes).

 

The next common scale up is 1:13.7, usually called 7/8" scale or SE scale (45 mm track for 2 ft gauge prototypes), but this is significantly larger than your own 1:18 scale.